The problem with Religious debates ONLINE

reply to post by sparksgordon


You wanted to know all of the diverse beliefs?

Mine are pulled from many religions and faiths and sciences of old and new, all of which originally came from one source but were scattered by man's chaos.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


thanks! very interesting!

reply to post by sparksgordon


...freakin' cop-out. I told you next to nothing, and you're satisfied? You're not digging very deep, are you? What are you trying to find or figure out?

Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by BSTStar

 

So in your opinion, is the murder of homosexuals "good"? After at, it is what the Abrahamic god laid down as "good". Same goes for all of the other examples I mentioned (and that is far from a comprehensive list). What is you opinion on, for example, the murder of disobedient children or adulterous couples?

edit on 31-7-2012 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)

Actually, before I comment on whether I think the punishment is good, let's talk about the crime - sin. God defined all the things you list as sin. I assume you do not accept that although I have no idea why, since God, not you, is the one who defines sin. How about bestiality or murder? Is there anything that you would agree with God is a sin or are you a "no rules, just right" kind of person? What if your disobedient children stole your money, framed you for meth distribution, and burned down your house? Or is sexuality and child discipline your hangup - you've just got to have a "no rules" approach to these specific areas?

Now, you describe these punishments as "murder" as if that is somehow the biblical term. I'm assuming to heighten the hysteria of your debate. There are all kinds of different punishments for different offenses ranging from being turned out to being hanged. But let's assume for the moment that specific sins call for execution - in other words removing a person from the population permanently. Let's start with an extreme and work inward - Let me ask you, is the execution of a homicidal maniac murder or a rational public defense? Why do you describe punishment as "murder"? That is curious. This is completely hypothetical and not biblical in the least, but what if God knows that homosexual behavior by the Israelites would have resulted in the end of the Israelite people because of lowered birth rates in the face of increasing infant mortality? Would the extinction of the Israelites be a good enough reason in your mind to prohibit the activity?

In terms of God's purposes for his people, the Israelites whom he had set aside for his own special people, I assume the punishments that he prescribes for various behaviors he defines as sin, no matter what they are, and there are many, are not only good but perfect for achieving his goals. Tough break here for the Israelites on the wrong side of this - although there is lots of evidence that they neither obeyed the law nor its judicial mandates very well.

So your question was, do I think they are good? Yes, for God's purposes they were perfect. Are they 'good' in a "I wish the world was like this" kind of good? Obviously not, it's a tragic consequence of a sin filled world. It's tragic that people choose to sin and hurt other people. It's tragic there are consequences. But I don't presume to judge God in terms of what he defines as sin or the consequences he lays out. Was it tragic he killed the firstborn of Egypt because Pharoah was too stiff-necked to release the Hebrews? You bet - but in the sense that God directed this punishment, it was right, good, and perfect.

It's tragic that people are so double-minded that on the one hand they can say, "I love my neighbor" and on the other they can commit adultery against them, break up their family, destroy the lives of their kids, get STD's, spread them around, etc., etc. etc. Get my point? You probably think you love your neighbor, but you not only don't agree with God in terms of what that means but you also do not agree on the punishment to dissuade people from making their lives and the lives of other people miserable.

I'm sure at this point you've either already fired up your reply screen or are so agitated you aren't listening, but God has made a way out of this most unfortunate circumstance, i.e. that we are at war with God's definition of sin and the consequences thereof. We can repent and believe that Jesus has paid the price for our sins. Most of us, including me, should be dead for the sins we've committed and we would be if the law was all we had. But fortunately, God has offered us his grace as an alternative - and I for one am grabbing hold of that promise and holding on for dear life. I've stared at my sin and I don't like it, I don't want to do it, and I've turned away and I keep turning away.

God is real my friend, he will punish sin and it's his rule book we're playing by. You can stick your fingers in your ears and say, "That's an outrage!" but it isn't going to change the playing field at all.

He's the potter, we're the clay.

reply to post by BSTStar

I assume you do not accept that although I have no idea why, since God, not you, is the one who defines sin.

Short, simple, sweet answer: Your "God" gives us sin, then punishes us when we can't handle it. And he knows exactly who's going to hell and why, yet still sets stuff up so it happens exactly that way, without even trying to change the course of their life. Because of sin. Which he created, and gave to us. Without asking what we thought about it. You go to jail for that, where I come from. But of course, "God" is exempt. He's special.

Bottom line: It's a trap.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


A great analysis of the logical fallacies involved in the previous posters argument. Problem is Christians are using a book written back at the start of the iron age to try and explain modern society and behaviour. Times change, society changes,people change, religion can't keep up with it.

I'd also add Islam and any other theists using old books to try and map reality, just so to avoid being called biased.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BSTStar

 

I assume you do not accept that although I have no idea why, since God, not you, is the one who defines sin.

Short, simple, sweet answer: Your "God" gives us sin, then punishes us when we can't handle it. And he knows exactly who's going to hell and why, yet still sets stuff up so it happens exactly that way, without even trying to change the course of their life. Because of sin. Which he created, and gave to us. Without asking what we thought about it. You go to jail for that, where I come from. But of course, "God" is exempt. He's special.

Bottom line: It's a trap.

edit on 31-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

To the readers: I love the indirection (or rather misdirection) practiced by many rationalizers and justifiers here. Notice how the words "handle it" are inserted rather than admitting sin.

You sinned pal, admit it. You probably knew it was wrong when you did it so buck up and admit it and don't treat it like some kind of "I'm too stressed out to know what I'm doing" BS. Furthermore, from infancy we all know the difference between right and wrong so enough with the garbage about not knowing or agreeing to the rules. I doubt you agreed to your country's constitution, you still gotta obey it.

James in the bible says that God doesn't tempt anyone, but each is tempted when he is dragged away by his own desires...and these become sin and sin leads to death.

My friend, you want to be your own God. Best of luck with that!

Originally posted by sparksgordon

Originally posted by impaired

Originally posted by sparksgordon
I dont mind answering your questions mate. however if you intend to make this thread an argumentative discriminative insulting thread im afraid you are wrong. if you want to debate like that please go on one of the COUNTLESS other threads on the matter not this one.

Sir - first of all, I am an Agnostic.

Second of all, I am watching this thread with my very eyes and YOU are not answering questions and are now getting defensive.

Why?

Now, are you going to construe my post as a strike because I am going against you?

Was I disrespectful? Was Mickierocksman? No. You are just being contested and it appears you are dodging questions and getting upset.

Edit: I just read the rest of the page. You said you were attacked? Are you just messing with us? I don't understand. What is the point of this thread? Mickierocksman was respectful and you just railroaded him by "not responding to your posts".

This is why us Agnostics and Atheists want to bash our heads into walls sometimes. This thread is proof. Am *I* not worthy of a conversation/debate now because I hurt your feelings???

edit on 7/31/2012 by impaired because: (no reason given)

Nah mate! your fine you talked in a respectful way! mickierocksman however with this.


Originally posted by Mickierocksman
It’s things like this thread I made today that promotes my loathing of all things religious, especially the christian faith that hides behind the cloak of do-gooders when everyone can plainly see that it is simply a cult “hell bent” on pushing an agenda that only assists the church and not the people it’s supposed to be caring or looking out for.

i mean simply calling my faith a cult is insulting in the least! i agree with some of his statements but there is no need to sling this kind of thing around. calling ones faith a cult is not being respectful in the least thats why i gave a strike for this comment.

you however are fine

although i do see your trying to get a rise out of me haha

Thanks for your comment friend

Not trying to get a rise. And as far as I see it, I agree with him. The churches and priests are corrupt. People shouldn't have to go to a church to follow Jesus' teachings. You just do it.

Jesus (according to the bible, which, no offense, I don't trust the veracity of it) did have some good advice to tell. But it's all second hand information (the gospels), and the Old Testament is an evil mess with an evil god. Do you NOT agree? Is the god from the OT indeed angry, jealous, killing over nothing, etc?

Now, if you agree, that means that Jesus (again - according to the bible) IS that god - IS Yahweh. So what happened? Yahweh grew up and became humble and chose to incarnate?

I thought God (Yahweh. Jesus, and the Holy Ghost - The Trinity) is ALL KNOWING, and all powerful. That would make it a direct contradiction.

Am I crazy? Wrong? Please tell me, because I am on the quest for truth (although I could never SUBMIT to an Abrahamic Religion. No offense).

reply to post by impaired


Authority and submission go hand in hand. If you don't recognize God as the authority, or authority in general, you can never submit yourself to him or any other authority.

All those other religions have authorities also, you'll see. Enjoy submitting to them and/or finding out you don't really want to submit to them either.

If in the end you find yourself as the only authority to whom you submit, then you will know that you do not believe in God, but have made yourself God. Good luck with that!

OK listen everyone!! this isn't a thread for debating weather or not christianity or any other religion or faith is right or wrong! i hear all sorts of objections and thats fine just go to a thread that people want to argue and fight. here i just want to see what YOUR belief is?

reply to post by sparksgordon


I believe in a god, but not in the an up close and personal being, but something so big that we can't even fathom its existence. I don't think god is any more aware of us than I am aware of the cells dividing inside my body. It's part of me. I care about my overall well being, but I could shed a few skin cells and not mourn their rebellion or judge them for my physical pain. I certainly wouldn't create a torturous place of eternal punishment for parts of my existence.

God exhaled, and the universe was expelled, full of life. Who knows how many other universes exist outside or along side our bubble of perception, in perpetual states of creation.

Originally posted by Klassified
I spent almost 30 years of my life as a devout fundamentalist Christian. I am now an atheist/agnostic, and I believe if there is any salvation for the human species, it will come by our own hand, or it won't come at all.

Prepare to be disappointed. If we could save ourselves we woulda done it long ago, plenty of people have tried, but as ever corruption worms it's way in. Long as there's a man left on this planet that desires to have more than his fair share and desires to take it from others, there will always be war, theft and murder.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

That's worthy of the star I gave you Lonewolf. But for the record, I've been prepared for that disappointment for many years.

Originally posted by Klassified
OP. As you already knew before starting this thread, Christianity is not tolerated very well on ATS. There are a few reasons for that, not the least of which, as another poster has already mentioned, is ignorance.

Another reason it isn't very well tolerated, is you have several members here who were Christians, and do understand it all too well, But are now atheists or agnostics. I fall into that group, and admittedly, I have some very strong views and opinions regarding Christianity.

I think the third reason it isn't tolerated well, is because many members feel it flies in the face of what ATS is all about. Most Christians base their decisions, observations, and their very life on faith in Jesus, and a book they staunchly believe is the very word of God. This confines Christians to a box that allows them very little objectivity in their world view. Any belief, theory, or "evidence" that remotely conflicts with biblical and/or current Christian doctrine is dismissed, or rearranged to fit Christian dogma. In short, they see Christians view of the world as a narrow band of light, rather than anything remotely similar to the broad spectrum of the rainbow.

And lastly, many here see all religion, not just Christianity, as the root of this worlds problems. From their perspective, the overwhelming majority of the world profess, and/or practice some form of religion, and yet after thousands of years of religious belief and practice, the condition of the human race is not pretty, and isn't getting any better. So if that is what religion does for us as a species... well you get the idea.

This isn't meant to be a definitive explanation, and it certainly isn't meant to be offensive. It is just a smathering of my observations, and I'm sure many could add to it.

edit on 7/31/2012 by Klassified because: (no reason given)

Sounds like evolutionists...

reply to post by BSTStar


See? This is exactly what I am talking about. A lot of elaborate prose to try and rebalance the clear cognitive dissonance between what you know to be morally acceptable and what your bigoted, spiteful god thinks is morally acceptable. Yet the dissonance is still there, glaringly obvious to the observer on the outside.

Originally posted by charles1952
What an ambitious project and I wish it well.

I think Chesterton was asked a similar question and his answer was "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." I can't beat that.

I accept the authenticity of the Bible on the grounds of historical analysis. No evidence can ever result in 100% proof, but we can't live our lives waiting for 100% proof. The evidence for the Bible and Jesus seems persuasive to me.

I also have great respect for the writings of the earliest Christians who pointed out the direction the Church was to take. Again, my interpretation, and I believe the evidence points to it, shows the central role Peter had in the Church at it's beginnings.

I further respect the work and prayer put into the issues of the Church by the great thinkers, such as Aquinas. And the devotion displayed by the martyrs.

Modern writers, such as Chesterton and Lewis (OK, relatively modern) speak to me about the logical basis and common sense foundations of Christianity.

The problem I have with this line of logic is that it's basically saying A=B because B=A; god exists because the bible says so. If god does exist, there needs to be some proof of its existence. It is self deception to want to believe in something when doing so defies logic.

Furthermore, the bible has been altered and appended throughout history; this takes away from its legitimacy. For this reason, it makes for a great collection of stories and features some fantastic mythology, but it makes for a terrible religious doctrine. The bible says that god exists because man wrote in the bible that god exists; there is no chicken or egg dilemma here: man writes religious texts, men follow religious texts written by man. The bible did not write itself.

I can't doubt the existence of a creator or creating force, for even if you take into account the big bang theory, it still does not explain how the condensed matter which went on to make life possible arrived into our universe. This does not, however, by default make Christianity or any other religion true. The only thing we can ever truly know is our own existence; every other belief is an assumption, not a truth.

Reality is absolutely subjective, all of our senses are how they are because of how our brains are wired; one thing goes wrong in conception and suddenly instead of seeing what normal people perceive to be red, one sees blue or green or pink; the same goes for smell and touch. Our nerves send signals to our brains when we touch and smell things which then get translated into what we actually feel, taste, hear, smell, etc. When taking this information into account, solipsism becomes a possibility, though not a probability. However, I would say that the existence of god is no more justified than the possibility of a solipsistic reality.

One can believe, if he or she wishes, but believing in anything other than the existence of the self is a leap of faith.

When asked, I tell people that I'm a Frisbetarian. We worship the frisbee, and believe that when we die, our soul gets stuck on the roof and we can't get it down.

In reality, I never really think about religion. When I see someone, their faith never enters my mind.
I have yet to feel any kind of "spiritual side" that needs placating.
I don't care how we were created.
I don't accept the concept of "sin".
I'm undecided on the concept of "god" due to insufficient evidence.
I'm undecided on the concept of an "afterlife" due to insufficient evidence.
The closest I've ever come to anything that could be termed a "religious experience" is making music with other people. To me, there is nothing better.

I do believe that organized religion is a scam started for control purposes (how many kings would have been killed by their people if killing wasn't a "sin"?).
I do believe that most "clergy" are just too lazy to work a real job, but still want to eat.
I do believe that any religion will immediately fall prey to corruption and power struggles, rendering it useless as a spiritual guide.

I sometimes wonder about a creator who, after creating a race of beings, would want them to worship him.
It strikes me as rather petty, and smacks of low self esteem.
Are those qualities anyone wants in a God?

Just my two vastly devalued cents, for whatever it's worth.

reply to post by TheGreatDivider

Sounds like evolutionists...

Indeed, there are those for whom science has become just as much a religion as any other faith on the earth.

Originally posted by BSTStar
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

You are obviously hung up on the idea of permanent punishment

I'm hung up on the idea of people worshipping and loving a god entity that intends to burn me forever in a dungeon as punishment for finite crimes. The fact you think this a acceptable is a sign as to just how much of a victim you are...

a punishment that can be avoided by accepting the fact that God is the potter and we are the clay, and accepting his terms for eternal life.

Yep your god's a cheap mob boss, pay your respect, agree to his terms or he'll break your legs.

So, if you accept the idea that God is supreme and that he has handed down this judgment and set of consequences, why not simply accept what he is offering?

If its not clear at this point, I'm an atheist and so I do not believe your god exists.

You can avoid it altogether as can all the other millions rejecting God's authority. Simply bend your stiff neck and do as God says to do.

More mob boss threats.

Oh, but I forgot, you're outraged on behalf of everyone else. A true altruist.

Yep, and the fact that this religion has poisoned you to the point where you're not and you think burning people for eternity is fine and perfectly acceptable.........is very sad

Let me ask you, would it seem more fair if say, Hitler or Joe Stalin made it to heaven carte blanche?

To be honest I don't think your god has any moral high-ground when it comes to punishing others, even Hitler and Stalin. According to your holy book he is burning untold billions right now as we speak. The millions killed and affected by H+S pale into insignificance compared to this intergalactic dictator.

The reality my friend, is that you would like to make these decisions on your own terms. You would like to act without fear of eternal consequences. If that's the way you want to roll, then just do it and don't look back. If you really believe that God isn't in control because of what the bible says (or at least not that God), then just do whatever you please and enjoy it. Eat, drink, and be merry!

I don't think anybody should have to fear eternal punishments for finite crimes. Further a god should be able to comprise ways to punish and rehabilitate criminals that don't involve such primitive and debased methods. I personally have lived without the fear of eternal punishments for over 40 years, I do whatever I please as long as it doesn't effect anyone else and I eat drink and be merry regularly.

Not for me - he's the potter, we're the clay.

Yep he's the master and you're the slave........a true sadomasochist