The problem with Religious debates ONLINE

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posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Prezbo369
 


I always love these empty edits after a little spat - perfect 'cat got your tongue' moment.

This gives us some insight into your atheist religion. 40 years - wow - you're an angry old man dude.

Is it eternal punishment for "finite" transgressions that you find truly unfair? I think you're mixing my belief system with your own. You believe they are "finite" transgressions because your belief system precludes the possibility of eternal life. So let me play along with you, if you believe that life is "finite" then why would you reject a system of laws controlling human behavior that threatens, but cannot deliver, eternal punishment? Perhaps the threat of this for us primitives (as someone called me) improves our behavior - wouldn't you benefit from this? If it didn't, then we'd be more likely to transgress against you, correct? Less perceived punishment, higher likelihood of transgression.

To me, what you're actually railing against is "final" punishment for what you perceive to be "finite" transgressions. This is actually at the core of someone who rejects authority and it wouldn't matter if the authority was God, some perceived God, the state, or your next door neighbor. You don't believe that *any* transgression merits a "final" punishment. I believe that eternal transgressions with eternal consequences merit final punishment because I believe there is eternal life.

I really do!

You and others can mis-characterize my belief as joyful but it isn't. Sin is a tragedy because it destroys life. The fact that sin must be punished is a consequence and a double tragedy. Thankfully, God can't and won't leave the sheep to be devoured by wolves.




posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by BSTStar
 


The OP set this post up so people could say what their beliefs were, not so we could argue about religion, however enjoyable that is. I think we should respect the purpose of this thread and leave the missionary work to another thread. Just sayin !

hehe just remembered the thread title - The problem with religious debates online
edit on 1-8-2012 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by Hopeforeveryone
 


I use the word "belief" about 10x in every post. Not only that, others make statements about my statements of belief that include their own statements of belief either explicit or implicit. Shouldn't we discuss them?

Now, we could treat this thread like a "dropper" and just plop our various beliefs into it attempting a viral infection of our co-ATS'ers but that hasn't happened and frankly would make a mockery of ATS' search for the truth. This isn't a data collection site for the OP to do a little fast reading on belief systems and then write a book.

Sorry - statements, counter statements, argumentation (while civil), is something we can all learn from.

(That's the nicest way I can tell you to stick it in your ear pal.)



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by BSTStar
 

So, you are saying that unless I believe in YOUR God, I am doomed, right? Let me make it plain for you. My Father is not your Father. I do not "submit to," or recognize any authority in any religion, as I see "authorized religion" as Mind Control and Brainwashing. I do not "supplicate" myself before any Deity, as I do not recognize their authority over me. And yes, they have tried. A few years ago, sitting in my daughter's car in a parking lot, I saw before me two figures, all covered in gold and sitting on thrones. They demanded my worship and devotion, and each told me it was my God. I stared at this spectacle, wondering who in hell these beings thought they were, anyway? I told them to bugger off, not in such nice language, mind you, and they went away. I think they were Annunaki, but have no way to confirm this. These beings mean nothing to me, and they have no power over me, unless I myself grant them this. Same goes for any being that calls themselves "God."

If in the end you find yourself as the only authority to whom you submit, then you will know that you do not believe in God, but have made yourself God. Good luck with that!

As for some of us attempting to achieve Inner Alchemy and finding the Gold within, that is the true purpose of Humankind, friend. If you are not doing this, then you are static, and will most likely remain there.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Prepare to be disappointed.

No, prepare to be astounded at what Humankind will be able to achieve in the very near future. Some will in fact Ascend to the Higher Planes, you will see them do this, and stand in wonderment. You will see people walk right out of their bodies and walk away in pure Spirit form. Humanity is in Awakening Mode, not in Darkness, and no, we do not wish to remain in darkness like the book religions would like us to. What you do, friend, is your own business.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by sparksgordon
OK listen everyone!! this isn't a thread for debating weather or not christianity or any other religion or faith is right or wrong! i hear all sorts of objections and thats fine just go to a thread that people want to argue and fight. here i just want to see what YOUR belief is?


You said this in the OP:


What i am proposing is this. i would like to see if this thread can stay civilized in a religious DISCUSSION not a debate. A experiment if you will. i want to see if its possible to talk about religion without throwing names around or being disrespectful to all partys from all sides. so. to kick start us off. What do you believe and why?


You said you wanted a civilized discussion. But then you said this thread isn't about debating! Am I losing my mind here?????

What do *I* believe? Well, I have a few thoughts (I don't like to say believe). I think:

1: There could be a SOURCE of the Universe, and if there is, I think its job was/is just to create (matter) ONLY. The rest is up to the Universe itself (nature - which, when you think about it, is NOT confined to the Earth. "Nature" applies to the entire Universe, no?

2: Ancient Aliens being perceived as gods.

3: Or the Universe is cyclical. There was no beginning, and there is no end.

Those are my thoughts.

So now that I showed your contradiction (first paragraph), would you mind expounding on my questions and thoughts I posted before? About the Abrahamic god being a murderer, which is Jesus, because they are one in the same?

If you're not going to answer me I will scream "Troll Thread" and report it, because honestly, I came here for a CIVILIZED DISCUSSION as you said, but now the thread seems to have changed.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Prepare to be disappointed.

No, prepare to be astounded at what Humankind will be able to achieve in the very near future. Some will in fact Ascend to the Higher Planes, you will see them do this, and stand in wonderment. You will see people walk right out of their bodies and walk away in pure Spirit form. Humanity is in Awakening Mode, not in Darkness, and no, we do not wish to remain in darkness like the book religions would like us to. What you do, friend, is your own business.


Exactly! The leaps and bounds of mankind's achievement and the technological possibilities for our advancement are mind blowing. The future does, indeed, look bright! As we begin to understand our evolution and the fabric of the universe, we can glimpse our potential and rightful participation in the universe.

But, ubber religious folk will balk and moan, as they rail against medical and technological advancement, and scream of materialism and fallen angels! All the while, they pray for destruction of their perceived enemies, civilization and the earth as we know it.

Ultimately, they WILL be disappointed to see mankind succeed and evolve without the intervention of their returning savior.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



The future does, indeed, look bright!


You're funny!


But, ubber religious folk will balk and moan, as they rail against medical and technological advancement, and scream of materialism and fallen angels!


These are people who have understood part of the Bible to its core, and have listened well to the dangers posed by being too indulgent in material desires. They are now mortally afraid of what should happen if they were to fall too far into the pit, and so they err on the side of caution, as recommended by the Bible. But again, this was in a time when a papercut was akin to slicing your wrists. Extra caution was necessary for survival in an age of minimal technology or medicine.


All the while, they pray for destruction of their perceived enemies, civilization and the earth as we know it.


They don't understand the concept of balance...they hold their protection in high regard, and they have to keep moving toward it or they fear they will slip back and fall away into addiction or similar conditions. As such, they fear one rotten apple will break the whole barrel, so they err on the side of caution (again) and try to maintain a strictly indoctrinated regime so as to make sure that THEY, at least, live on.


Ultimately, they WILL be disappointed to see mankind succeed and evolve without the intervention of their returning savior.


The first mistake in reading the Bible, is taking it literally. It's not the stories themselves, but the thoughts and concepts they provoke within the mind as we reflect on them. That's why we're encouraged to read again and again.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 



Sounds like evolutionists...

Indeed, there are those for whom science has become just as much a religion as any other faith on the earth.


The only people who say things like "science is a religion" are the ignorant types who know absolutely nothing about science.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy
 

Dear DestroyDestroyDestroy,

I'm not sure that I explained myself clearly enough. Apparently I caused you some confusion.

The problem I have with this line of logic is that it's basically saying A=B because B=A; god exists because the bible says so. If god does exist, there needs to be some proof of its existence.
Actually, I'm saying that the Bible is evidence, accepted by most historians as the written records of people witnessing events. Proof? Maybe not. Evidence? Most certainly. Accepting a theory supported by the preponderance of evidence is not something that "so defies logic." The Bible (in the parts meant to be taken historically) is meant to be taken as reporting. It's existence is saying "Here I am, I exist. I'm open before you and have been accepted as what I claim for over 1000 years." You may disbelieve the reports if you wish, but surely you have some burden to bear in disproving it's claims.

The Bible has been altered through history? I don't think that anyone claims the alterations have been more than minor matters affecting little or nothing in the way of the message or the teaching. Many have been the correction of typos (Scribos?) How does it follow that making those changes makes the religious doctrine terrible?


Reality is absolutely subjective,

The only thing we can ever truly know is our own existence; every other belief is an assumption, not a truth.

I can't doubt the existence of a creator or creating force, for even if you take into account the big bang theory, it still does not explain how the condensed matter which went on to make life possible arrived into our universe.(Original heaavily edited)
I can't see how these are consistent with each other. Regardless, no man lives this way. We assume we see a red light and so we stop. We assume the bookcase is real, so we place books on it. We respond to words that we assume are on the computer screen. These types of assumptions are essential for any kind of sane living.


One can believe, if he or she wishes, but believing in anything other than the existence of the self is a leap of faith.
Of course, that's why religions are sometimes called "Faiths." Everything is a leap of faith. Faith based on evidence, arranged by reason. That's all any of us have.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 



Sounds like evolutionists...

Indeed, there are those for whom science has become just as much a religion as any other faith on the earth.


The only people who say things like "science is a religion" are the ignorant types who know absolutely nothing about science.


This is exactly the kind of statement I would expect from the type of people I was referring to.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 

Nice try, but you have't actually rebutted my point.

To parrot your words: "This is exactly the kind of statement I would expect from the type of people I was referring to".



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by john_bmth
 


You made a judgment. What's to refute? You want people to throw insults back at you? There's nothing to say to labels and biting remarks except smile secretively and walk away.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Do I really need to spell it out for you? It's not hard, demonstrate why science, which has a completely different and mutually exclusive definition to religion, is in fact the same as religion.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by john_bmth
 


If it isn't hard, you should have no problem elaborating for the rest of us. Come on, I'd love to know your explanation. Try to explain it fully, if you would. Let's have no confusion about your answer.



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by john_bmth
 


If it isn't hard, you should have no problem elaborating for the rest of us. Come on, I'd love to know your explanation. Try to explain it fully, if you would. Let's have no confusion about your answer.

Explain what, exactly?
edit on 1-8-2012 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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Behold your "God"...


Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses.

"...scientists who see an intelligent force at work in nature are being fired from their jobs. ...mention "intelligent design" today and your career is over. Why are "secularists" so afraid of intelligent design?

Because they're funded by the Illuminati, (Rockefellers, Rothschilds etc.) who are Satanists. Satanists fear that acceptance of this "intelligence" will interfere with the makeover they're giving humanity. They think they are God.

Secularism pretends to be about freedom and tolerance but that's a ruse. It is Satanism in disguise and nothing freaks a Satanist more than the rumor of God or anything resembling Him. Watch the Trailer! The secularists are more fanatical than any religious cult. They are a satanic cult. They deny the obvious! They have to expel scientists! They have to stop free inquiry and debate!

Yes Virginia, there is no Satan. But there are legions of his disciples ready to betray truth for transitory profit. They're in academia, the mass media, government and the National Academy of "Sciences."

They serve the Prince of Lies. They make evil seem good, lies seem true. They want humanity to be an accomplice in its own demise. This is why Satanists "reveal the method." They want our moral complicity. They want our souls.

Modern Western history is the record of the overthrow of Christianity by Satanism disguised as secularism. Satanism has pervaded every aspect of our cultural and intellectual life but we hoped that science would be spared. Apparently, this is not to be.

Intelligent Scientists "Expelled" by Illuminati
Teaser Trailer
Super Trailer
Full Movie



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by john_bmth
 

John, normally I would ignore baiting posts yours. But you've been a member here a long time. So...

I said this originally...


Indeed, there are those for whom science has become just as much a religion as any other faith on the earth.

Then you said...


The only people who say things like "science is a religion" are the ignorant types who know absolutely nothing about science.

Then I replied...


This is exactly the kind of statement I would expect from the type of people I was referring to.

And you replied...


Nice try, but you have't actually rebutted my point.


There is no rebuttal needed since you didn't even read the first comment I made. Find in my first statement where I equated religion and science. It isn't there. Read my original statement again. Do you fall into the category of people I'm speaking of? Has science become a religion for you? If not, then why are you offended when I wasn't speaking of you?



posted on Aug, 2 2012 @ 03:34 AM
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Double post
edit on 2-8-2012 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2012 @ 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by Klassified
 


You still haven't rebutted anything I a have said, you have merely repeated your ignorant statement about science being a religion without so much as an explanation how these mutually exclusive concepts are synonymous. This type of circular thinking might fly down your bible class but not with anyone capable of a critical thought.





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