Chemtrail Tanker Air Show For The Skeptics

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posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by Uncinus
 




See that's the kind of disinformation the chemtrail promoters use. You are basically making things up:


Well, Mr. Making Things Up, I'm still waiting to finish our conversation on the jet and the egg. But you don't ever finish anything...you just go on to something else when things get uncomfortable for you.

A persistent contrail (without chemical additives) is a rarity. And an outrageously persistent contrail, as in the sky grids, is an absolute freak. But wait...it's being sighted all over the world (except for the tropics). I'm tired of what you consider 'natural'. Basically tired of your bunk 'science'.




posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





A persistent contrail (without chemical additives) is a rarity.


And you have figured this out how?

So now a persistent contrail has chemical additives in it,correct?

And regular persistent contrails are a rarity?

Seriously???



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





Basically tired of your bunk 'science'.


And what do you consider bunk science?



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by DJW001
 




Contrail formation is a natural process.


o.m.g.!


You've only just realised this?
Oh dear - well I guess it must shake up the foundations of your myth a wee bit. But that is good.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 



You have what I perceive as a vested interest in proving that the grids in the sky are outrageously persistent contrails. I don't. Therefore it doesn't matter to me what altitude or humidity or what saturation of nucleatable (is that a word?) particles is present. It only matters to you.


Your perceptions are wrong. I have a vested interest in encouraging people to learn critical thinking and the scientific method. You are admitting that you are diametrically opposed to this.


What matters to me is fostering some real understanding of the grids in the sky. Not proving that they are outrageously persistent contrails.


If you were to apply critical thinking ad the scientific method, you would have no trouble understanding why persistent contrails seem to form grids in the sky. Try it.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 




A persistent contrail (without chemical additives) is a rarity. And an outrageously persistent contrail, as in the sky grids, is an absolute freak.

What chemical additives were used in the bombers to form the sky grid in 1944?

Were they contrails or chemtrails?



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus
 




See that's the kind of disinformation the chemtrail promoters use. You are basically making things up:


Well, Mr. Making Things Up, I'm still waiting to finish our conversation on the jet and the egg. But you don't ever finish anything...you just go on to something else when things get uncomfortable for you.

A persistent contrail (without chemical additives) is a rarity. And an outrageously persistent contrail, as in the sky grids, is an absolute freak. But wait...it's being sighted all over the world (except for the tropics). I'm tired of what you consider 'natural'. Basically tired of your bunk 'science'.


Jet and egg? Perhaps if you asked direct questions, I might answer them quicker.

But you ARE making things up, because you can't cite ANY source that says persistent contrails are rare.

So how do you know they are rare? If you don't have a reason for believing this, then you are just making it up.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by luxordelphi
 




A persistent contrail (without chemical additives) is a rarity. And an outrageously persistent contrail, as in the sky grids, is an absolute freak.

What chemical additives were used in the bombers to form the sky grid in 1944?


High explosives........but they were only a diversion - the real damage was done by poisoning Germany with chemtrails at 26,000 feet......




posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by tsurfer2000h
 


You're up next!



And regular persistent contrails are a rarity?


Let's ask NASA:

Q: Why are there more short-lived contrails than persistent contrails?

A: For a particular geographical location, it may seem that there are more of one type of contrail than another. Actually, the type and number seems to depend on the amount of moisture and temperature in the atmosphere where the plane is flying. If the area is fairly dry, then more short-lived contrails might be observed. If there is more moisture, such as along the east coast of the United States, there might be more persistent contrails observed.


So everyone on the eastern seaboard, clap your hands! The rest of us can go back to sleep because we're not seeing anything.

Let's ask a real scientist, rather than relying on virtual wannabe's:

Francis Mangels, Former USDA Scientist Talks Geoengineering Chemtrails

Francis Mangels, former USDA scientist and featured expert in the movie What In The World Are They Spraying?, joins us to talk about the controversial topic, chemtrails. Skeptics say that chemtrails are merely persistent contrails, but the conditions for which normal contrails to persist are very rare.


Let's ask a researcher (who, btb, can't seem to decide on chemtrails or contrails):

Contrails

Met offices tell us that there is more high cloud because of increased air traffic but perhaps other factors are leading to increased water vapour in the upper atmosphere, one hypothesis is that ozone decomposition by hydrogen can do this. Changes in aircraft fuel particularly to JP8 and JP8 100 with its dispersant molecules may be having effects by boosting particulate emission. Changes to Earth’s ionosphere or magnetosphere may also be happening (either natural or person- made) which could yield more prevalence of CCN (Cloud Condensation Nuclei) for persistent and spreading contrail formation.


Similarly they were first noticed in the skies of the UK in 2001 and are now commonplace particularly in the summer months. This coincides with JP8 use in all air fleets and JP8 /100 IN A FEW OTHERS. It is also possible that there is a certain threshold density for normal persistent contrails, allied to the amount of air traffic, particularly with AVOSS and AMDAR requirements, water vapour, particulates and upper atmosphere electric field; above which values natural spreading or cross-linking occurs. If this is the case it is difficult to see why air traffic controllers don’t take account of this and vary air routes more often.


Why was the first Scientific Project by Professor Patrick Minnis to study Persistent Contrails entitled with the acronym ‘SUCCESS’ and why was it so ‘successful’ to have created or observed the World’s first spreading contrail/chemtrail, particularly when they can exacerbate global warming?


Pseudo –cirrus can give rise to some very rare atmospheric optical effects called Halos, Sundogs and Day glows hitherto fairly rarely observed at British Latitudes.


Let's ask another researcher recently interviewed in connection with "What In The World Are They Spraying", the video.

Persistent Plane Contrails Cover Atlanta Skies, Raise Concerns

"Persistent contrails are condensation that persists longer than the normal contrail. Persistent contrails are very rare and require very specific atmospheric conditions which include very cold and very humid air," Murphy said.


And let's ask a 3rd researcher, just for even numbers:

Study: Persistent Contrails (Chemtrails?) Indeed Produced by Non-Regular Air Traffic

A study conducted using the scientific method in the Houston area shows that (1) an abnormal type of aircraft contrail, one that is significantly more persistent, is being produced by some planes, and that (2) the planes that produce this type of contrail (some would call them chemtrails) are not registered air traffic for the area, but rather, unidentifiable jets.


My reply is not quite finished. Please be patient while I continue below.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 


Mangels PhD is in forestry - why do you quote him as an expert on the atmosphere?

And of course Murphy isn't a scientist at all and What in the world are they spraying is a completely useless waste of every-bodies time - making basic errors like testing sludge for aluminium and then saying the result is the amount in water.

All his stuff is long debunked as nonsense - you should catch up with the times, as Rosalind Peterson has done



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by tsurfer2000h
 


And last, a study, not much of it, just the abstract, mostly incomprehensible, stating , definitively, that we don't ever need to see another outrageously persistent contrail.

Contrails and Climate - Understanding vertical Dispersion of Contrails

iii) Only in the rare case of higher ambient ice supersaturation (.2%) do both parts of a contrail contribute to the persistent ice cloud. The number of ice crystals initially formed is typically reduced by a factor of 200 by evaporation (60% ambient humidity). This leads to a high population of interstitial particles. The results imply that formation of persistent contrails can be minimized by technical means.


To sum: used to be rare. Pretty much everyday since the 2000's. Easy to tweak so we'd never have to see another one. So really, two completely different things as the chemtrail data has said all along. There is no such thing as an outrageously persistent contrail but there is a chemtrail, designed to persist.

Studies to keep it persisting are ongoing and the money spent in this endeavor, including launching equipment into orbit to keep a handle on it, have been enormous.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 


mostly incomprehensible

Incomprehensible to you perhaps. But there you go again, looking for keywords and not understanding what is being said.

The secondary wake is composed of nonspherical particles larger than the ones in the wingtip vortices which are spherical particles and/or particles smaller than 0.5 mm. In most cases the secondary wake is the only part of a contrail that persists after vortex breakdown.

imk-ifu.fzk.de...

The primary wake is the wingtip vortices. The secondary wake is the "jet wash", the jet exhaust.

The part you quoted states that the ice not detrained from the wingtip vortices sublimates because they are carried downward which results in adiabatic heating (unless the air is highly super saturated). The ice which remains (in the secondary wake) still forms persistent contrails.


To sum: used to be rare.
The paper does not say that.


Easy to tweak so we'd never have to see another one.
The paper does not say that.


There is no such thing as an outrageously persistent contrail but there is a chemtrail, designed to persist.
The paper does not say that.


stating , definitively, that we don't ever need to see another outrageously persistent contrail.
The paper does not say that.

You can see the paper in its entirety here:
www.sussmann-publications.lima-city.de...
edit on 7/21/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 


Mumbo jumbo.

The only part we need to concern ourselves with is:

Contrails and Climate - Understanding Vertical Dispersion of Contrails

The results imply that formation of persistent contrails can be minimized by technical means.


To sum: we don't ever need to see an outrageously persistent contrail again and, truly, we never really did need to see them shortly after WWII on because enough was known about them then to nip them in the bud (on those rare occassions when they were spotted.)

P.S. Thanks for the link - some bedtime reading.

However, because it is clear, that the grids that we see are not outrageously persistent contrails but are, rather, chemtrails, and it is by design that they persist and spread, we do see them and are subjected to senseless explanations for their proliferation aka toxic skies.
edit on 21-7-2012 by luxordelphi because: add p.s.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 


Mumbo jumbo.
Yes. To you it would be since you don't bother to learn what the parts you don't understand may mean.


To sum: we don't ever need to see an outrageously persistent contrail again

To sum: by making dramatic changes to aircraft design it may be possible to reduce the formation of persistent contrails. It says "minimize" not "eliminate". Changes which would reduce the efficiency of the aircraft and result in the consumption of more fuel and thus increase the production of more exhaust products.


some bedtime reading

Watch out. It's full of more sciencey stuff. You know...mumbo jumbo.
edit on 7/21/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 




Changes which would reduce the efficiency of the aircraft and result in the consumption of more fuel and thus increase the production of more exhaust products.


What more? How could it get any worse than toxic sky grids? These are already everyday. I'm not real up on the cutting edge solutions but the tried and true: a change of altitude or a change to combustion heat or the Navy thing or this technique in this study, secret and whatever it is. Also the Appleman Chart that you all are so fond of. Let's give that one some wear and tear. And let's install a sensor for the times that the chart fails us.

Outrageously persistent contrails are causing real problems: global dimming, heat retention, floods and drought, not even mentioning what the chemtrail flavor du jour might be.

To sum: what you have stated are excuses. The solutions are simple and well known. Life would be better and the militaries would no longer have to fend off chemtrail claims.



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 



What more? How could it get any worse than toxic sky grids?


Now all you have to do is prove that contrails are toxic.



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





Let's ask a real scientist, rather than relying on virtual wannabe's:


When you actually find one then please let us know, because this is not one..


Francis is presently a professor and master gardener, growing gardens in the Pacific Northwest for 50 years. He came from farm and forest country in Montana and Idaho, to Mt. Shasta in 1981. With BS cum laude in Forestry 1970 and MS in Zoology 1976, Francis also has “minors” in many conservation and natural resource subjects: soils, geology, botany, bugs, fish, agriculture, range, wildlife, and conservation management.



Francis retired from district biologist for Mt. Shasta-McCloud USFS in 2008, where he did range, wildlife, botany, mushrooms, fisheries, and other input to timber sales and other natural resource projects for 35 years. He also was a USDA Soil Conservationist for the Soil Conservation Service and served farms, ranches, orchards, and gardens.


www.consciousnessbeyondchemtrails.com...

Scientist you say?

How about doing a little research into these peoiple before you post them as something they are not.

Next.....



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





And last, a study, not much of it, just the abstract, mostly incomprehensible, stating , definitively, that we don't ever need to see another outrageously persistent contrail.


Why do you constantly pick and choose what you post and leave relevant info out...


The most evident effect of air traffic upon the atmosphere is certainly its formation of (long living) condensation trails (contrails). These artificial clouds appear when the hot and humid exhaust gas from the jet engines reaches a water-supersaturated state during its mixing with the cold ambient air. This then allows the water vapour to condense and freeze to form ice crystals. Generally, persistent contrails receive more interest than those that are short living (lifetime ,1 min), because only persistent contrails can significantly impact on the radiative energy balance of the Earth.


imk-ifu.fzk.de...

Is it incomprehensible because you do not understand it, because it seems pretty clear to me from the opening paragraph as posted above,or do you need more?


Understanding the mechanisms determining growth in the vertical and horizontal directions is crucial for quantifying the impact upon regional radiation balance. Vertical extension is ruled by the dynamics of the downward trailing vortex pair that forms behind cruising aircraft due to pressure differences at the wings ("vortex regime", i.e., 10–100 s behind aircraft). Horizontal growth is then determined by vertical shear of horizontal wind speed and turbulence in the "dispersion regime".


imk-ifu.fzk.de...

Still can't comprehend what they are saying?



stating , definitively, that we don't ever need to see another outrageously persistent contrail.


Can you possibly show me where this is stated or did you just make this up?
edit on 22-7-2012 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





Persistent Plane Contrails Cover Atlanta Skies, Raise Concerns


Well I hate to burst your little chemtrail bubble,but I live and work in the Atlanta area and guess what there is not this big concern because the news meteorologists know what persistent contrals are and know how they are formed too bad others don't, also there is a little news service called CNN based in Atlanta that would have been all over this had it actually had any merit.

In fact here are a few pics from the Atlanta area..







Not really a serious problem over Atlanta.

Also that link you provided is to help push the What in the World are they Spraying video which has been thoroughly debunked here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And just a little info for you APN is not a legit news source here in Atlanta it is just like any other blog on the internet.



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by luxordelphi
 





The solutions are simple and well known. Life would be better and the militaries would no longer have to fend off chemtrail claims.


Actually if people would actually learn and understand what causes contrails to persist there wouldn't be this paranoia (that you seem to jump all over) that planes are spraying toxic chemicals on the unsuspecting masses.

A little knowledge goes a long way.....





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