Obamacare amounts to slavery...

I am an RN on a medical-surgical unit in a small hospital. I am certainly not an indentured servant, but I acknowledge that a fair portion of my wage comes from government-funded programs. I can see the "conservative" side of the argument where people feel that it is not their responsibility to take care of the health of others, and I can also understand where the "bleeding-heart liberals" who want to help are thinking. The system as it is is extraordinarily inefficient. People who can't afford insurance put off seeing a health care provider until the situation becomes emergent, and emergency department visits are rather expensive.

I mentioned to a friend a while back that if health care were to become accessible to all people, everyone who was receiving government coverage would be mandated to 1) See a primary care provider on a yearly basis, 2) Go to the dentist on a yearly basis (there are strong links between dental hygiene and overall health), and 3) Visit an optometrist on a biennial basis...you don't want people with glasses they got in middle school driving around. Any person who was not in compliance with these mandates would lose coverage until they had complied with the requirements.

With health care, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The people who are costing thousands of dollars in the emergency room could have been treated for a few hundred dollars in a family practice. The "people can go to the ER for medical care" argument is abysmal, because taxpayers are paying that enormous cost. I would rather pay to keep people OUT of the ER by sending them to a nurse practitioner or physician assistant for a fraction of the cost.

Originally posted by kabfighter

With health care, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The people who are costing thousands of dollars in the emergency room could have been treated for a few hundred dollars in a family practice. The "people can go to the ER for medical care" argument is abysmal, because taxpayers are paying that enormous cost. I would rather pay to keep people OUT of the ER by sending them to a nurse practitioner or physician assistant for a fraction of the cost.

Absolutely agree.

I just got Medicare - - but did not have regular medical insurance for 20 years because I couldn't afford it. I did have major medical - - with a $1200 deductible. That was near $400 a month (I never used it).

I look at it like paved roads. Should everyone be responsible for paving the road in front of their house or apartment?

Having the money to pave your portion - - doesn't mean you will. You might still try to con some neighbor into being responsible for your portion.

A poor person who cares about what his home looks like might work to come up with the money to pave his portion.

Neighbors could get together to pave their block - - - of course there's gonna be one person who refuses to donate - - - so other will pay more to have their block fully paved.

But - - just the visual of this should be enough to scare anyone.

reply to post by nenothtu


Please! You are not forced to buy something that you don't want or need. Do find my previous posts and watch the videos. Obamacare is explicitly clear that if you already have coverage, you can keep it. YOU ARE NOT FORCE TO OR NEED TO SWITCH to government insurance. You only need to switch if you want pay less because government insurance is cheaper.

Obamacare compells those without insurance to get coverage and you don't have to get government insurance. If you insist to burden those who are insured and not get health coverage, then you pay a fine. In any event, this does not affect you since you claim you are already covered.

You also claimed that people are benefiting from your hard work and you never complained. So it is really weird that you are complaining about nothing.

In one arrogant move by the U.S. Supreme Court, we now know that ObamaCare is constitutional. What we'd like to know is, "What Constitution were they using?"

If they were looking at the U.S. Constitution, they would see the enumerated powers of the federal government (Article I, Section 8), as well as Amendment X stating the powers not delegated to the federal government are left to the states or people. Nothing in there about making citizens purchase products or services or paying a penalty if not buying them.

Ironically, many conservatives are falling over themselves trying to position this as a win based on the genius of Chief Justice John Roberts. They say he helped to rein in the abusiveness that has accompanied the Interstate Commerce Clause. Does this mean that they think that all of the current abuses associated with this clause will stop? Good luck with that!

The only positive that may come out of this is an infuriated electorate that knows ObamaCare goes against the founding principles and will work to stop it. I know this has certainly turned my head and while I could spit twice and sail away from this melting pot, for the sake of my children and their children the fight begins now.

reply to post by kabfighter


But you would still be FORCING people to do your will...

People should CHOOSE FREELY what they want to do, not be "MANDATED BECAUSE IT IS GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH".

Dictatorships have been created "for the good of all" by "mandating and regulating everything".

Yes, the system is inneficient, but is "national healthcare" efficient?...

You will get people saying "yes it is" and other who will say "it isn't." But in reality "national healthcare" has as many, if not more flaws than the system the U.S. has been using.

I have given this idea before, and I still think it could work.

Americans give FREELY billions of dollars to charity for other countries, why not have a similar system to help THE UNITED STATES?

The people that can, and make more than enough can give as much as they want to, to help pay for the healthcare of those who TRULY need it.

Such a system would depend on FREEDOM rather than MANDATES and FORCING people to do the will of the government or certain individuals.

FREEDOM always comes at a cost, are you really going to give it away to get a sense of "security"?...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)
...
"Those who trade liberty for security have neither." (John Adams)
...

www.ldtactical.com...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by kabfighter

 

But you would still be FORCING people to do your will...

People should CHOOSE FREELY what they want to do, not be "MANDATED BECAUSE IT IS GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH".

Dictatorships have been created "for the good of all" by "mandating and regulating everything".

Yes, the system is inneficient, but is "national healthcare" efficient?...

You will get people saying "yes it is" and other who will say "it isn't." But in reality "national healthcare" has as many, if not more flaws than the system the U.S. has been using.

I have given this idea before, and I still think it could work.

Americans give FREELY billions of dollars to charity for other countries, why not have a similar system to help THE UNITED STATES?

The people that can, and make more than enough can give as much as they want to, to help pay for the healthcare of those who TRULY need it.

Such a system would depend on FREEDOM rather than MANDATES and FORCING people to do the will of the government or certain individuals.

FREEDOM always comes at a cost, are you really going to give it away to get a sense of "security"?...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)
...
"Those who trade liberty for security have neither." (John Adams)
...

www.ldtactical.com...

Like Kabfighter said in their post, the American people will pay either way. The gov't chips in to help pay for unpaid ER visits that therefore if you work and are paying taxes, you are paying them. Since those visits are more expensive than preventative care, it is in the best interest of taxpayers to have this system put in place.

Originally posted by Gigantopithecus
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Please! You are not forced to buy something that you don't want or need. Do find my previous posts and watch the videos. Obamacare is explicitly clear that if you already have coverage, you can keep it. YOU ARE NOT FORCE TO OR NEED TO SWITCH to government insurance. You only need to switch if you want pay less because government insurance is cheaper.

Obamacare compells those without insurance to get coverage and you don't have to get government insurance. If you insist to burden those who are insured and not get health coverage, then you pay a fine. In any event, this does not affect you since you claim you are already covered.

You also claimed that people are benefiting from your hard work and you never complained. So it is really weird that you are complaining about nothing.

You must have missed the part where my coverage doesn't involve insurance. It involves taking care of myself - no doctors or hospitals necessary.

You're right about one thing, though. I'm not going to be forced (or "compelled", as you put it) to buy a damned thing, and I'm not paying that "penalty tax" either. They'll try alright, but it ain't gonna happen. How far it goes depends on how hard they want to push it, but whatever they decide, I'm not buying into the insurance ponzi scheme, paying any sort of "penalty tax", or going to jail over it. You can figure out the options left from there.

reply to post by mr3dboot


We ALL must do our part if we wish to be a successful society. By YOUR logic we should just take care of ourselves and to hell with everyone else. Well, I hate to break it to you but someday you WILL need someone to take care of you too. Should we extend your ideals to that point as well and just let you die?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Medicare doesn't work. It worked at one time but, as usual, it became to big to be managed properly. A new approach is needed. Desperately. We should be modeling our healthcare on the countries that are successful. We have some of the brightest people in the world living in this country. We should be able to figure this out. If we could keep the special interest groups and the lobbyists out of it we may have a chance

So, it has been many hours since I asked for proof of the claims made in this post. I have yet to see one single link or document showing that death panels, slavery , or any other insane claim made by some of you. Well, what is the problem??? Having difficulty finding it or are you just sticking by your baseless argument because you don't know how to do anything else?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Gigantopithecus
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Please! You are not forced to buy something that you don't want or need. Do find my previous posts and watch the videos. Obamacare is explicitly clear that if you already have coverage, you can keep it. YOU ARE NOT FORCE TO OR NEED TO SWITCH to government insurance. You only need to switch if you want pay less because government insurance is cheaper.

Obamacare compells those without insurance to get coverage and you don't have to get government insurance. If you insist to burden those who are insured and not get health coverage, then you pay a fine. In any event, this does not affect you since you claim you are already covered.

You also claimed that people are benefiting from your hard work and you never complained. So it is really weird that you are complaining about nothing.

You must have missed the part where my coverage doesn't involve insurance. It involves taking care of myself - no doctors or hospitals necessary.

You're right about one thing, though. I'm not going to be forced (or "compelled", as you put it) to buy a damned thing, and I'm not paying that "penalty tax" either. They'll try alright, but it ain't gonna happen. How far it goes depends on how hard they want to push it, but whatever they decide, I'm not buying into the insurance ponzi scheme, paying any sort of "penalty tax", or going to jail over it. You can figure out the options left from there.

I respect your feelings, even though you still refuse to be part of the team. You feel everyone is wrong, against you, but that is not it at all. You have this false sense that you are immortal, you will never get sick or be dying. Either that or you believe that even if you get sick or dying, you don't need help. Sir, if you lay unconscious or dying, it won't be you who decide you don't need help. It may be your love ones, a kind stranger or ever the great American society and conscious who demand that you be provided with medical care. It will be back to square one, we will still be unfairly forced to foot your medical bills.

No man is an island, but if you still insist, I am sure you will agree your options are clear. Either be a man, a real American and get yourself insured thereby truly won't be a burden to Americans, or just move away from us, to China, India, Mexico, North Korea, Pakistan.

reply to post by Masterjaden


Obamacare amounts to slavery

No...slavery amounts to slavery..read some history

Enough with the BS already.

Originally posted by nenothtu


You're right about one thing, though. I'm not going to be forced (or "compelled", as you put it) to buy a damned thing, and I'm not paying that "penalty tax" either. They'll try alright, but it ain't gonna happen. How far it goes depends on how hard they want to push it, but whatever they decide, I'm not buying into the insurance ponzi scheme, paying any sort of "penalty tax", or going to jail over it. You can figure out the options left from there.

So it's safe to assume you already havent paying any of your taxes for decades he, right?

Originally posted by nenothtu
You must have missed the part where my coverage doesn't involve insurance. It involves taking care of myself - no doctors or hospitals necessary.

You really are obtuse. Do you have any idea how many times you would be dead now from diseases that have been practically wiped out? Do you think you did that? You can function in society without succumbing to every plague man has because doctors are taking care of each other. You can lie about your birth all you like, you live in the US then you benefit from our crappy healthcare system.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Masterjaden

 

They can't debate the topic,

It is hard to debate opinions and lies, don't you think?
This topic is an opinion.
These threads are full of lies.
I would be glad to debate something factual about this with you.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
I came upon an interesting thought while discussing Obamacare in another forum I frequent where people were trying to claim that healthcare is a right...

I don't understand how ANYONE can claim that a service provided by another is a right... That would infer that you have the right to force someone to work for you. That is THE definition of slavery.

Anyone who advocates that healthcare is a right, advocates for slavery.

The hypocratic oath does not infer forced servitude. It is a man's personal honor to keep their word. The Doctor still must have the choice whether to do so or not. Non action on the part of the doctor does NOT amount to murder.

Jaden

edit on 1-7-2012 by Masterjaden because: (no reason given)

It is slavery by definition and against the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, which states,


13th Amendment to the Constitution:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Read on the intent of the law here,
en.wikipedia.org...


When there is a threat or coercion made to a free person who has committed no crime, so that that person must perform a duty or work in order to avoid personal jeopardy, that is "slavery".

To comply with the government you must buy health insurance, even if you don't want to have it. If you don't you are threatened with a penalty tax that you must pay. To pay this tax, or buy their insurance you must work, and that work is involuntary as one is being forced to comply. If you refuse to comply, you are then under the prosecution of the most powerful force in the nation, the " IRS". And you will go to jail, prison, pay a greater fine, or both. You are being forced to serve the government by paying for something against your will under the threat of punishment (the penalty tax).

Judge Roberts was a very smart man if he knew this because as soon as the first person is taxed, they will have standing under the 13th amendment to file an injunction against O-care and stop it dead until it is resolved again at the Supreme Court, in which case, it will get overturned.

reply to post by Fromabove


Now that is a smack down!!!!!!


Let's hope that people in Govt that see this as such, will use these provisions and laws to strike it down.

reply to post by Fromabove


If you think this is slavery I have bad news for you. You are already a slave. You have been your entire life. You are a slave to a society that demands money for goods. you are a slave to a society that states that you are may not live her unless you pay.
This isn't slavery. This is being a MEMBER of the society that you enjoy the protection of. If you don't like it, remove yourself from this society and see how long you survive. Pack up and move to the wilds and don't come back. You won't because you know you can't do it for an extended period of time. You NEED this society. The same society you rail against and talk down to. Without it you would never live. So, start doing your part. help take care of the less fortunate. In the end we will all be stronger for it.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Masterjaden

 

They can't debate the topic,

It is hard to debate opinions and lies, don't you think?
This topic is an opinion.
These threads are full of lies.
I would be glad to debate something factual about this with you.

You haven't yet...

Why don't you start by challenging ANY of my premises...

You sure as # can challenge the validity of the logic, or the soundness of the argument, so just start by challenging ANY of teh premises that you would like.

I'll even give you a hint, the premise you have the best chance of arguing against is that forced labor is slavery, but it is, so even that won't get you far.

Jaden

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by Fromabove

 

If you think this is slavery I have bad news for you. You are already a slave. You have been your entire life. You are a slave to a society that demands money for goods. you are a slave to a society that states that you are may not live her unless you pay.
This isn't slavery. This is being a MEMBER of the society that you enjoy the protection of. If you don't like it, remove yourself from this society and see how long you survive. Pack up and move to the wilds and don't come back. You won't because you know you can't do it for an extended period of time. You NEED this society. The same society you rail against and talk down to. Without it you would never live. So, start doing your part. help take care of the less fortunate. In the end we will all be stronger for it.

The protection of???? Are you insane??/?


I enjoy the violations of my Liberty, something that our forefathers guaranteed us. I enjoy the abuses of those we have placed in authority over us. I have enjoyed only the protections of the people of this nation that have sacrificed themselves for it, willingly. I am one of those persons. I swore an oath to uphold the constitution that is now being ignored. So have millions of others.

People that spit on it by stating that they can violate our fundamental rights with no accountability would not like to do so to my face, I can tell you that.

Jaden