ObamaCare: 5 Times the Cost of US Military Budget.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Yes but some people need to be taken care of, the eldery for example.
Yes we all have freeloaders in our countries but we can only stop that with a better education system and better parenting but that is for another topic.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Yes but some people need to be taken care of, the eldery for example.
Yes we all have freeloaders in our countries but we can only stop that with a better education system and better parenting but that is for another topic.

It seems that if one subsidises something, one gets more of it. Our great society and war on poverty has increased poverty. It's human nature: if you don't have to work or plan for something, you won't. (Or at least many won't.)

I take care of my elders, including having the grandparents move in with me. It is a pain at times, and a cost and I've had to make some sacrifices but that is what one is supposed to do for your elders, not foist them off on the state. If more families pooled resources and took care of their elders and gave up a vacation or two or some niceities, then this would not be as much as a problem.

reply to post by NavyDoc


I look after old people for a job and I admire that you have the means and the will to help your old folks, but many people just have no one and when dementia hits in we have to help them.
Many people have planned for the future but life isn't perfect and things can happen that can bankrupt a family through no fault of their own so we must have a safety net to protect those people, and just make sure no one is screwing the system.

I think that it is reasonable to argue for a safety net. However, in the US, our safety nets seem to evolve into hammocks over time.

reply to post by NavyDoc


There are times where there is a difference between wanting people to take care of you for something and when they are priced out of the market. Most of the problems in our medical system are not simply people wanting to be taken care of it is being priced out of the market entirely. Back in the 80's when they were pushing corporate mentality into hospital operations has accelerated the problem a great deal. Add to this allowing medical insurance to exist as a for profit industry has also taken a significant toll. What possible cost containment and wellness service do you honestly expect to receive, when you allow a parasitic company that does nothing to improve the quality of your care to collect money out of the healthcare system?

Originally posted by boymonkey74
It is ingrained in USA'ers that anything socialist is bad, I admit I do not know the in's and outs of Obamacare but it shouldn't matter if it costs the middle class a little bit more tax to help people who can not get medical treatment.
If you heal the sick who can not work better enough to work it can only be good for everyone.
We have the NHS in the UK and we all pay for it, heck it is nearly 70 years old and it is still not being run correctly.
I hope you can sort out Obamacare to be cost effective for all.
Love BM xxx

Unfortunately, this isn't Socialism. This is forcing citizens to support a corporate welfare state, which is fascism. And, yes, fascism is worse than Socialism by a long shot.

Both are at odds with liberty.

/TOA

THe problem is that a lot of the increasing costs of medicine have been due to governmental interference from the connection of healthcare to employment due to wage freezes under FDR to a gradually grown but massive maze of bureaucracy to EMTLA legislation that forces others to pay for care in our ERs. I think it illogical to seek the government as an answer to the issue when the government helped cause the problem in the first place.

reply to post by boymonkey74


No BoyMonkey,

Now we pay whatever we want...we purchase a plan that meets our particular needs, we decide what doctors we want, we decide what medicine we want. We pay for our choices. For example....I do not believe in birth control or sterilization or abortion and I do not have to pay for them now. With this new Obamamedtax I would be contributing to these things and my own choices will be limited. My costs will go up and my choices down.

I am a person who has volunteered in hospitals and donated generously to charity...so don't tell me to do my share. I am sure I have already done more than you...Are you a hospital volunteer? Here in the USA if we need something we work for it...we do not sit on the dole and wait for her royal highness to give it to us.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

It seems that if one subsidises something, one gets more of it. Our great society and war on poverty has increased poverty. It's human nature: if you don't have to work or plan for something, you won't. (Or at least many won't.)

This is a fallacy as well. The war on poverty hasn't increased poverty. What has increased it is a working class whose wages have stagnated for decades, while those in charge have seen their wages skyrocket. This has created a huge distortion in any data you could use to measure poverty. You couldn't even begin to get a real grasp on whether the war on poverty is worthwhile, when the top has intentionally pushed the middle and working class to the poverty line. This has more to do with imbalanced and unfair trade practices than any welfare or assistance program.

Naturally you will have those that are content to milk the system, but that number would be far smaller than what it appears to be now if there were more jobs that paid a living wage. Because people are generally the same the world over if it isn't made extraordinarily difficult to improve ones station they will. This means that the focus should be on making outsourcing more difficult and adult training easier and more affordable to obtain.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Yes but some people need to be taken care of, the eldery for example.
Yes we all have freeloaders in our countries but we can only stop that with a better education system and better parenting but that is for another topic.

We have programs for the elderly. This healthcare is for votes. It is meant to cover those who live on welfare or for one reason or another work either part time or work contract without buying health insurance. But its great because now those same people who instead of buying insurance will sit back and have a tax auditor show up and demand money from them for not paying. How is that helping? This doesn't just automatically give them health insurance. You still have to pay for it, but you have to pay with a tax. And the best part is there will be more of those unemployed people because the entire insurance and healthcare industry is going to be on its ear. My mom i one of those. But I am sure that you guys arguing how great this is know all about it. Its just awesome to have something shoved down your throat. Especially when it tastes like crap. No one is arguing that we dont need some healthcare reform but this isnt the way. This was just a bit pile of crap that he wanted passed so he could say he did it.

And for the record, I have a grandmother that is 85 years old and she receives social security and gets medicare. The difference between her and some others is that she worked her butt off up until retirement age. She didnt have a high paying job. Just a non skilled type position at a pottery but she worked. That last part seem hard for a large portion of our population that seems to think holding your hand out is the same as working.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


I work in healthcare and do things 95% of people just would not do, I will never be able to afford a home of my own because of my low wages but I love looking after my old folk, I don't claim any benefit entitled to me and have never claimed dole.
What you forget is many people who will benefit from OC have contributed to your society and through bad luck or bad decisions they need help.
I really hope your life goes perfect and you never need help from anyone but life is not perfect and one day you just may need some help.

reply to post by TheTardis


We in the UK have national insurance which is a tax but helps pay for healthcare for all, yes it has it's problems but without it I would have died as a child (11 weeks premature).
I really hope you guys over there in time become proud of OC just like we here are proud of our NHS.
Now excuse me everyone a pint has my name on it

Originally posted by KeliOnyx

Originally posted by NavyDoc

It seems that if one subsidises something, one gets more of it. Our great society and war on poverty has increased poverty. It's human nature: if you don't have to work or plan for something, you won't. (Or at least many won't.)

This is a fallacy as well. The war on poverty hasn't increased poverty. What has increased it is a working class whose wages have stagnated for decades, while those in charge have seen their wages skyrocket. This has created a huge distortion in any data you could use to measure poverty. You couldn't even begin to get a real grasp on whether the war on poverty is worthwhile, when the top has intentionally pushed the middle and working class to the poverty line. This has more to do with imbalanced and unfair trade practices than any welfare or assistance program.

Naturally you will have those that are content to milk the system, but that number would be far smaller than what it appears to be now if there were more jobs that paid a living wage. Because people are generally the same the world over if it isn't made extraordinarily difficult to improve ones station they will. This means that the focus should be on making outsourcing more difficult and adult training easier and more affordable to obtain.

You see, I disagree. If social welfare programs and wealth redistribution ended poverty, then after nearly 50 years of the great society, we should be seeing much less people on these programmes. Of course, poor people have a better standard of living than most people in the world, so I do agree that our concept of "poverty" is a bit skewed. Handouts help destroy one's drive. Consider this phrase for a moment:"if it isn't made extraordinarily difficult to improve ones station they will." Consider the underlying philosophical underpinnings of that sentiment. It seems to say "If it isn't to hard I may make the effort to better myself if someone else makes it easy for me" If everyone had this attitude, we'd have no Thomas Edison or Bill Gates.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by TheTardis

 

We in the UK have national insurance which is a tax but helps pay for healthcare for all, yes it has it's problems but without it I would have died as a child (11 weeks premature).
I really hope you guys over there in time become proud of OC just like we here are proud of our NHS.
Now excuse me everyone a pint has my name on it

edit on 29-6-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

I'll take you up on that only if you let me get the next round. I could use some of the old bitter.

reply to post by NavyDoc


You will always have those that will excel no mater the obstacle. Edison was motivated by his own greed and a great thief patenting other people's work before they could. Gates while an overachiever from his youth didn't have to worry about getting an education this was take care of for him. When I say extraordinarily hard I am referring to the people that have to decide between trying to decide between an education and their ability to eat in the future. There are millions who are in a boat where they have no hope left in them because there is no way to improve their station without taking on a huge burden of debt that there is no guarantee that they will ever be able to payoff once they graduate. For the guy with a family to take care of this is an onerous burden and a tremendous risk.

The Great Society didn't cause this poverty issue, it didn't breed it. Business caused this with downsizing (which with technology was inevitable in many case) offshoring and outsourcing. Business caused this by ignoring what was better for the entire economy, to what was just better for them. The consumer caused this mess by doing exactly the same thing and buying into the big box store mentality. And our education system caused this by teaching that the only important thing Ford did was invent the assembly line, instead of his economic wisdom and how it helped create the middle class and why.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Done mines a pint of Golden pippin

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by TheTardis

 

We in the UK have national insurance which is a tax but helps pay for healthcare for all, yes it has it's problems but without it I would have died as a child (11 weeks premature).
I really hope you guys over there in time become proud of OC just like we here are proud of our NHS.
Now excuse me everyone a pint has my name on it

edit on 29-6-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

Thats great except right hospital emergency rooms and minor emergency centers do not turn people away. People are treated if they need treated. Health insurance or not. Just ask the Illegal Immigrants. We are not communists. Yes you might get a bill. But just as I know and other responsible adults know. If you work hard and make something of yourself you can get a descent job and get health insurance. Hell it doesn't take much. Most any full time 40 hour a week job offers health insurance. And if not Blue Cross and Blue Shield and many others have fairly affordable plans. The problem is that MANY of the uninsured that are being used in the statistics CHOSE to be uninsured. Either because they want their check to be bigger or because they want to pay out of pocket because they dont go to the doctor much. Its a gamble but at least they have the choice. They will no longer have that choice. They are going to have to start paying for those that dont work. Now, if it is a tax though, and those who dont work are taxed just like I am. How do you collect that? Or does it stockpile and the rest of us have to pay it? Or do we jail them for not paying in which case I am still paying for them because I work? How do you suppose they enforce a tax like that? But quit acting like we are trying to deny health care to people. No one is doing that and no one is saying some things dont need to change. We know some things need to change. What we dont need is more lay offs in the insurance industry, higher taxes and more uncertainty in our economy.

reply to post by TheTardis


So no one is denied health care in the USA?

thinkprogress.org...

www.youtube.com...

www.familiesusa.org... ans-since-bush-took-office.html

www.propublica.org...

OB will help sort out these problems, Insurance companies are a problem.
Oh and how much does it cost to have a baby in the USA if you are not insured 20k? well it costs nothing here (no bill to pay)thanks to our NHS.
I do agree with you about the drug companies charging too much etc.

reply to post by TheTardis


What about people to sick to work and they can not afford insurance?
Oh and we treat them here exactly the same as someone who pays tax. Our doctors, nurses just get on with it.
The only thing we pay for at the counter is a prescription which costs £7.65 no matter how much the drugs cost.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by TheTardis

 

What about people to sick to work and they can not afford insurance?
Oh and we treat them here exactly the same as someone who pays tax. Our doctors, nurses just get on with it.
The only thing we pay for at the counter is a prescription which costs £7.65 no matter how much the drugs cost.

I didnt say everyone. I said most. And I know of a lady right now that is too sick to work and yet she has a spouse who works and has insurance on them both. And if I remember correctly my friend who had a baby a few years ago without insurance got off for about 5k on it. Not cheap but most people have insurance. I think you would find if you walked around the US and started trying to find someone without health insurance it would not be that easy. Most of us have insurance and most of us are happy with it. I dont have insurance right now. I am on a contract to hire deal and I opted out of the insurance. I will wait till I am on full time and take the insurance form the company I am hiring into and right now my paychecks are larger from that. I have that option and I am glad I have the right to do that. Its called FREEDOM and I enjoy it daily.

Oh and I think you are confusing being Denied Coverage on Insurance with treatment. We dont just throw people out on the curb to die. But yes there are things insurance refuses to cover and you will be charged full price for. And yes that is why somethings need to be fixed. But you dont need to scrap the entire in place program and put something new in place. Do you junk your car because the radio doesnt work right? Or do you fix it?