Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
All except for the one last human sacrifice for the Gipper.

Nothing like ending human sacrifice with a human sacrifice.

Thanks for showing how good a thinker you are.

Regards
DL

One thing you're missing, is that he threaded the needle, made it through the ordeal after carrying the whole weight of sin and evil, and exited the tomb after three days to enjoy a full and happy human life. You don't seem to understand either what I meant about the strong man being bound and Jesus getting to have the last laugh at the devil's expense.

And it certainly transcends a mere morality of should and shouldn't, of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which, according to the law of life and love can only condemn us in our sins.

This, once "grokked" releases us from the subjective prison of our own making and places us back into relationship with God the Absolute as children of a loving God who's now made a provision for us to be 100% included in spite of what would have otherwise resulted in our separation from the Absolute Perfection and Supreme Holiness of God.

In Christ and his Great Work, we are set free under grace, to freely love as we are loved, authentically.

It is a high standard of both a severe justice and a tender mercy, without any compromise with sin and evil whatsoever, making of that standard one of forgiveness, from the top down.

Who are you to condemn the mind of Christ which concieved of it and carried it out in accord with his own discernment of the highest will which is the will to love.

The most extraordinary thing about it, imho, is what it says about the true stature and place of man in God's great creation, not man as he is, but as he was intended to be.


P.S. You have an interesting monicur for someone actively working to try to undermine the efficacy of the Magnum Opus of Jesus Christ as being fundamentally "immoral".

If man is not as God wants him to be then that speaks to his poor creating powers and not anything of man's.

Regards
DL

reply to post by davidchin

We require someone who can take our place in punishment so that we can be able to approach the presence of God.

That would be a pretty good argument if there was a Bible verse that said that, so it is just a suggestion of what may be the way things work.
Jesus' death was a demonstration, in real life, of the futility of believing membership in an institution is the way to go. Jesus died to make it clear that the institution did not know the first thing about the real God.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Free will - the greatest gift of God. It's in the gap between what is and what ought to be that man falls, but that it's all up to us, once reconciled, to be and become the best that we can, that space of freedom and of infinite potential represents the magnificence of God's creative ability and his love, which to be love must be free.

It's absurd, and actually immoral, within the framework of free will, to blame God for man's shortcomings.

Interestingly, however, what we see in Jesus' Great Work, is God taking full responsibility for man's shortcomings, nevertheless.

Something else worth bearing in mind..

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by davidchin

 

We require someone who can take our place in punishment so that we can be able to approach the presence of God.

That would be a pretty good argument if there was a Bible verse that said that, so it is just a suggestion of what may be the way things work.
Jesus' death was a demonstration, in real life, of the futility of believing membership in an institution is the way to go. Jesus died to make it clear that the institution did not know the first thing about the real God.

edit on 29-6-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I think this is exactly right and is demonstrated by his anger at the money changers and how the temple was being used. He was into the spirit of the law, not the wording of it. His protection of that so called sinner who picked wood on the Sabbath shows this.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Free will - the greatest gift of God. It's in the gap between what is and what ought to be that man falls, but that it's all up to us, once reconciled, to be and become the best that we can, that space of freedom and of infinite potential represents the magnificence of God's creative ability and his love, which to be love must be free.

It's absurd, and actually immoral, within the framework of free will, to blame God for man's shortcomings.

So if God makes a pot that leaks, it is the pots fault.
To unjust minds perhaps.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

. . . the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

You are making a lot out of a very small amount of what may or may not be supported from the Bible.
I dealt with this in your other thread, on "universal morality". www.abovetopsecret.com...
I point out that the verse only says what you claim if you ignore the evidence.
Since this is a thread about people running away from an argument, I would like to see your explanation for your declining to give a reply to mine in that previous thread.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

. . . the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

You are making a lot out of a very small amount of what may or may not be supported from the Bible.
I dealt with this in your other thread, on "universal morality". www.abovetopsecret.com...
I point out that the verse only says what you claim if you ignore the evidence.
Since this is a thread about people running away from an argument, I would like to see your explanation for your declining to give a reply to mine in that previous thread.

You stretch the word evidence.

I have Christians telling me that when the bible says all, if it does not match their preconceived dogma, means "some"

Because of this, I tend not to get into pissing contests on how to interpret the various translations of scriptures. FMPOV, they have all been altered over time and their real message, we will likely never know. We both also know that most of the N. T. is forged or plagiarized from the older religions. Almost nothing in the bible is original thought.

It is common Christian dogma that God had a plan that was formulated before God began to implement it.

Your reference to how names were written in the book made me think we were close enough on the page that no comment was necessary.

That is also why I try to steer the discussion to moral issues and stay away from picking scriptures apart. Even if we were to finally agree on some turn of phrase, it would still be speculative nonsense on our parts as we could never prove that that is what the original author meant.

In this case "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,", I take it to mean exactly what it says.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

In this case "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,", I take it to mean exactly what it says.

Though not all bibles translate it that way.

It is common Christian dogma that God had a plan that was formulated before God began to implement it.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know – this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles.
Acts 2:22,23
Which would be one passage among others which would lead some people to read that verse in Revelation a certain way.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It certainly adds fuel to the fire.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

Just the opposite in fact.

It means you don't care enough about your ideas to make sure they're actually heard.

You're also appealing to a causal relationship that you have no way of establishing as true. Our silence doesn't have to be because your questions present us with a dilemma that we are either unwilling or incapable of resolving. It's possible Christians find your questions redundant, prosaic, insulting, or dishonest.

That all being said, if you were actually interested in answers - you'd have them by now. Can you honestly say you genuinely wish to hear the answers to your questions?

Originally posted by followtheevidence
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

Just the opposite in fact.

It means you don't care enough about your ideas to make sure they're actually heard.

You're also appealing to a causal relationship that you have no way of establishing as true. Our silence doesn't have to be because your questions present us with a dilemma that we are either unwilling or incapable of resolving. It's possible Christians find your questions redundant, prosaic, insulting, or dishonest.

That all being said, if you were actually interested in answers - you'd have them by now. Can you honestly say you genuinely wish to hear the answers to your questions?

edit on 1-7-2012 by followtheevidence because: (no reason given)

I want to hear something that will refute what I say and in that way learn and improve my morality.

If human sacrifice and genocide is in anyway moral, it is to Christians to promote that moral position. When they do not, it says I am correct in my position.

I expect Christians to at least follow some of what the bible says.

Not being able to justfy dogma is what is killing Christianity and FMPOV, since it is based on immoral practices, it deserves to die.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Justify or slink away. Your choice.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


What's to slink away from?

I'll be back later tonight with my reply.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a bbq to attend to.

Cheers.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

reply to post by Greatest I am


Please be mindful that not all Christians are extremist christians and that by using the term "Christian" you are attacking all who follow Christ, not just the extremists who distort the beliefs.

The cornerstone isn't human sacrifice, but self-sacrifice with the story of Christ being the most extreme example of that sacrifice. Also, not all Christians believe that the Bible is taken word for word. Perhaps a better term would be extreme fundamentalists or fundemental evangelicals as that seems to be the group that your opinions differ from so greatly, not all the ranges of Christianity.

We have spoken before in this thread and I know that you are able to respect my views as you clearly said you did. Please don't be the opposite end of extremism as neither is productive in finding answers.

Thank you.

reply to post by Greatest I am

I don't think I've ever seen a more closed mind than yours, and arrogance, that you think you've got it all worked out. Perhaps God knew in advance that with freedom, would come separation, so a provision was made, and set in motion along side of the historical implications of that freedom to choose, and to try to judge between good and evil (something only God can do). And who are you to question the morality of God, how is it that you know better, and why can't you even take an open-minded and willing look at the genius involved, which would at the same time make no compromise with sin and evil while setting a standard of a severe justice and tender mercy who's import and export is love and forgiveness from the top, all the way down.

"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer

Originally posted by Greatest I am
In this case "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,", I take it to mean exactly what it says.

Regards
DL

Could you provide the supporting scriptural reference for that? Thanks.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

Only if you want to believe that a God would sentence himself to death and you thinks man is stupid enough to think that God would sacrifice himself to God, --- not a sacrifice at all IOW, ---- because man is doing exactly what we were created to do.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Please be mindful that not all Christians are extremist christians and that by using the term "Christian" you are attacking all who follow Christ, not just the extremists who distort the beliefs.

The cornerstone isn't human sacrifice, but self-sacrifice with the story of Christ being the most extreme example of that sacrifice. Also, not all Christians believe that the Bible is taken word for word. Perhaps a better term would be extreme fundamentalists or fundemental evangelicals as that seems to be the group that your opinions differ from so greatly, not all the ranges of Christianity.

We have spoken before in this thread and I know that you are able to respect my views as you clearly said you did. Please don't be the opposite end of extremism as neither is productive in finding answers.

Thank you.

edit on 4-7-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)

My target are those Christians who read scriptures and myths literally. That is anyone who believes in a miracle working Christ. That is the majority of Christians.

They are the poor sods who need a mental adjustment.

Jesus is an archetypal good man. It is an insult to his good name when Christians tie him to the genocidal son murderer of the O. T. with their silly Trinity concept.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL