Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't think I've ever seen a more closed mind than yours, and arrogance, that you think you've got it all worked out. Perhaps God knew in advance that with freedom, would come separation, so a provision was made, and set in motion along side of the historical implications of that freedom to choose, and to try to judge between good and evil (something only God can do). And who are you to question the morality of God, how is it that you know better, and why can't you even take an open-minded and willing look at the genius involved, which would at the same time make no compromise with sin and evil while setting a standard of a severe justice and tender mercy who's import and export is love and forgiveness from the top, all the way down.

"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer

Rather hypocritical of you.

You ask who I am to judge God's morals while you have done exactly that. I guess that reciprocity is not part of your morality. I am not suprised at you low moral position.
You judge God's morals to be good while I find them evil and that is what bugs you as you cannot defend them with anything but dogma while I have known moral principles at hand.

You criticize what you see as arrogance, which is only confidence in the rightness of my position, while you hypocritically self-abase yourself for heavenly points. Pathetic.

Why is it that you can judge while others cannot?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
In this case "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,", I take it to mean exactly what it says.

Regards
DL

Could you provide the supporting scriptural reference for that? Thanks.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

My target are those Christians who read scriptures and myths literally. That is anyone who believes in a miracle working Christ. That is the majority of Christians.

They are the poor sods who need a mental adjustment.

Jesus is an archetypal good man. It is an insult to his good name when Christians tie him to the genocidal son murderer of the O. T. with their silly Trinity concept.

Regards
DL

Just remember that those who aren't "prostelyzing in the streets" are the more accurate descriptions of Christians. We realize the Bible is a book (a great, wonderful book) written by men describing the relationship with God through many generations. Many of the newer fundamentalist evangelicals have been given a distorted view of exactly what that is.

My God is an awesome God, but even God says he is a jealous God, he does change his mind, just as he did in allowing Lot to leave, just as he did in making his promise to Noah with the rainbow in the sky, just as he did with Adam and Eve and expelling them from the garden instead of taking away the life that he gave them....

Christ died on the cross because it was HIS sacrifice, he chose to take the sin upon himself of the laws that existed so that those sins could be forgiven of mankind. It wasn't a human sacrifice, it was self sacrifice, putting his own life up for the forgiveness of all...Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Too many focus on the "thou shalt not" instead of "thou shall". My views differ greatly from the fundamentalist evangelicals, but not from the root of Christianity, a faith that many share and many understand. The Christians that do know and understand aren't the ones out picketing other groups, screaming about how sinfull they think someone else is, demanding that the laws reflect their views... the Christians that know and understand are the ones who are in the background, helping others, giving a hand up to those in need.

I don't get into religous discussions often because seldom are views changed when it's in a debate format. Both sides have made up their mind and refuse to be moved from that. I show my belief through my actions instead of my words. I reach out to others, I help them, not expecting anything in return. Giving the time and energy to all who need it in hopes that one, just one, will see that the good that is done comes from a higher place, from my faith in God. If that ONE person can be brought to God, in the right way, that's better than 10,000 brought to him out of fear or peer pressure or "doing what's cool". I am far from perfect and make my own mistakes, who am I to judge the mistakes of others? Only by man's laws can men judge, God's laws are to be judged only by God and I am to ensure that I follow them to the best of my ability, not that others follow or don't. We are to teach, not enforce.

Faith, like a fine wine, takes time to develop and that deep, rich flavor cannot be matched by the "quick and easy". It can be soured by a flawed container or lack of care or a drop of vile allowed to disperse throughout it. It has to be honored and protected, cared for and guarded.... then shared with those it is meant for because they took the time and put in the care or are of great thirst that they may rejoice in the richness and flavor and be thankful for the time and care that went into letting it develop.

Those who are in the group you speak of can attain a deeper, richer flavor, even those who don't believe at all can attain it, but it takes time, patience and putting others before yourself. It can't be done by force or coersion, it has to be done voluntarily by those who WANT to do it, who desire it, who are willing to put in the time and effort and truly understand.

I'll go even further and say that I think you know this, that you are at a crossroad and you see the group you dislike and don't want to be like them. You haven't seen the other group, the one I'm showing you now, if only in a glimpse... it's there if you want it...the choice is yours to make...not mine to force or determine. It is yours and yours alone...

Good luck in your journey, and may you find what it is you seek...

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I don't see things as being predetermined down to every detail in that way.
That's more of a line of thought that goes with more recent translations and interpretations of the Bible with all the additions, subtractions and editing that has happened through the centuries.

I see it more as an "outline" that God had, where we are on the stage ad-libing, then the outline changes from time to time.

The major events are there, but the story is ad-lib through our existance and interaction as well as free-will playing into it.

... my view of it anyway

The Christianity you seem to have an issue with is the Christianity as defined by man, not the spirituality as defined by God... they are extremely different. Man's Chrsitianity is based on what he believes God's spirituality to be, but they have not been error-free in the determination of it.

reply to post by Greatest I am

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

I don't accept your initial premise. Because God knew about the first sin, doesn't mean he planned it. It simply means that He was able to see the future and the past, see what choices people would make, see everything. It's not logical to say He wanted it to happen that way, or planned for it.

reply to post by charles1952


Agreed. It's like when we re-read a book or re-watch a movie. We know what the beginning and ending are and what happens in between and we can't change what is in the book or movie, only know what's in it.

God is all-knowing and all-seeing, but he gave us free will. He created humans, not the entirety of human existance.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

Dear PurpleChiten,

You should know, first of all, that I don't give my vote to just any cute Chiten that flutters an eyelash at me, but if you keep this up I may have to.

I was reminded about the importance of reason by a Father Brown story, written by G.K.Chesterton, called The Blue Cross. He has Father Brown in a discussion with Flambeau, a thief disguised as a fellow priest. The conversation starts with Flambeau:

"Ah, yes, these modern infidels appeal to their reason; but who can look at those millions of worlds and not feel that there may well be wonderful universes above us where reason is utterly unreasonable?"

"No," said the other priest; "reason is always reasonable, even in the last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I know that people charge the Church with lowering reason, but it is just the other way. Alone on earth, the Church makes reason really supreme. Alone on earth, the Church affirms that God himself is bound by reason."

"Reason and justice grip the remotest and the loneliest star. Look at those stars. Don't they look as if they were single diamonds and sapphires? Well, you can imagine any mad botany or geology you please. Think of forests of adamant with leaves of brilliants. Think the moon is a blue moon, a single elephantine sapphire. But don't fancy that all that frantic astronomy would make the smallest difference to the reason and justice of conduct. On plains of opal, under cliffs cut out of pearl, you would still find a notice-board, `Thou shalt not steal.'"

(Father Brown then explains how he knew that Flambeau was not a priest)

But, as a matter of fact, another part of my trade, too, made me sure you weren't a priest."

"What?" asked the thief, almost gaping.

"You attacked reason," said Father Brown. "It's bad theology." (Parenthetical material added)

www.pagebypagebooks.com...

I think it applies to the discussions we sometimes have with people who are so filled with hate that their reason starts to slip.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Great exerpt, sounds like a great read! I'll definitely have to check it out!

God, in my view, is the "ultimate scientist". He doesn't just "do stuff", he makes things happen through the laws of nature when he does interact. He works through reason and logic.
When we look at the creation vs evolution, who is to say that his method of creation wasn't evolution itself. When we look at the plagues and miracles in the Bible.... the death of all the firstborn Egyptian sons... they all slept on a special mat, on the ground, the latter born slept up in lofts and elevated, wherever they could. A volcanic emission of CO2 gas would linger close to the ground and would have suffocated those sleeping there... the parting of the Red Sea, some say have to do with earthquake activity or a tsunami type of event. We even have earthquakes in our own recorded history here where the Mississippi River ran backwards for an amount of time due to one well away from the river itself.
People want to separate the spiritual and the logical, but they go hand in hand. Logic and the laws of physics were created not defied. Science is the study of the world we live in, a process, not a thing, and it doesn't go against God at all, in fact, it's the study of what God has created (for those who believe, and I do)

Of course, that is my opinion on it, and I could be wrong, but it is my present understanding and belief.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

I don't accept your initial premise. Because God knew about the first sin, doesn't mean he planned it. It simply means that He was able to see the future and the past, see what choices people would make, see everything. It's not logical to say He wanted it to happen that way, or planned for it.

Certainly it is as he could have changed conditions anytime he chose to. After all, he is all-powerful and has no limits. All he would have had to do is not place that tree or Satan there to tempt A & E.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't see things as being predetermined down to every detail in that way.
That's more of a line of thought that goes with more recent translations and interpretations of the Bible with all the additions, subtractions and editing that has happened through the centuries.

I see it more as an "outline" that God had, where we are on the stage ad-libing, then the outline changes from time to time.

The major events are there, but the story is ad-lib through our existance and interaction as well as free-will playing into it.

... my view of it anyway

The Christianity you seem to have an issue with is the Christianity as defined by man, not the spirituality as defined by God... they are extremely different. Man's Chrsitianity is based on what he believes God's spirituality to be, but they have not been error-free in the determination of it.

edit on 5-7-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)

Try to get Christians to admit that fact.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't see things as being predetermined down to every detail in that way.
That's more of a line of thought that goes with more recent translations and interpretations of the Bible with all the additions, subtractions and editing that has happened through the centuries.

I see it more as an "outline" that God had, where we are on the stage ad-libing, then the outline changes from time to time.

The major events are there, but the story is ad-lib through our existance and interaction as well as free-will playing into it.

... my view of it anyway

The Christianity you seem to have an issue with is the Christianity as defined by man, not the spirituality as defined by God... they are extremely different. Man's Chrsitianity is based on what he believes God's spirituality to be, but they have not been error-free in the determination of it.

edit on 5-7-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)

Try to get Christians to admit that fact.

Regards
DL

Most Christians I know do admit that. It's the extremists who don't and those are the ones who seek the spotlight and make the most noise.
Remember, just as there are extremes in the general population, there are extremes in all things.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

Only if you want to believe that a God would sentence himself to death and you thinks man is stupid enough to think that God would sacrifice himself to God, --- not a sacrifice at all IOW, ---- because man is doing exactly what we were created to do.

Regards
DL

that would include accepting that Jesus was God... He was not... so that idea is out the window.

you could read what it actually says though... Something like "God so loved the world that he sent his son" knowing full well that he would be executed for what he told the world

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

Only if you want to believe that a God would sentence himself to death and you thinks man is stupid enough to think that God would sacrifice himself to God, --- not a sacrifice at all IOW, ---- because man is doing exactly what we were created to do.

Regards
DL

that would include accepting that Jesus was God... He was not... so that idea is out the window.

you could read what it actually says though... Something like "God so loved the world that he sent his son" knowing full well that he would be executed for what he told the world

It was also Christ's choice of whether to accept or not. He could have gone along with Satan when he tempted him in the garden and avoided the cross or even gotten himself down from it... he chose not to, he had free will and sacrificed himself for all of mankind.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

avoided the cross or even gotten himself down from it...

Ya i don't buy that for a second...

The man was nailed to a stake... he could not have Gotten down...

Though he could have avoided the cross... but that was not his fathers will...

And on an entirely different note... his followers could have fought for him... but instead they denied him. Though he also knew that would happen as well...

It was all part of a plan that Jesus was fully aware of...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

Only if you want to believe that a God would sentence himself to death and you thinks man is stupid enough to think that God would sacrifice himself to God, --- not a sacrifice at all IOW, ---- because man is doing exactly what we were created to do.

Regards
DL

that would include accepting that Jesus was God... He was not... so that idea is out the window.

you could read what it actually says though... Something like "God so loved the world that he sent his son" knowing full well that he would be executed for what he told the world

Sure. Except a good moral God would have stepped up himself.

Should sons bury their fathers or should fathers bury their sons?

Good morals say a son will bury his father. I guess God loved himself more than his son.
That and if God love the world, he would never have condemned it in the first place.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Perhaps the solution to your issue is that God knew his son would volunteer to do what was necessary...

The sacrifice was Gods... Jesus only stepped up to the plate...

Only if you want to believe that a God would sentence himself to death and you thinks man is stupid enough to think that God would sacrifice himself to God, --- not a sacrifice at all IOW, ---- because man is doing exactly what we were created to do.

Regards
DL

that would include accepting that Jesus was God... He was not... so that idea is out the window.

you could read what it actually says though... Something like "God so loved the world that he sent his son" knowing full well that he would be executed for what he told the world

It was also Christ's choice of whether to accept or not. He could have gone along with Satan when he tempted him in the garden and avoided the cross or even gotten himself down from it... he chose not to, he had free will and sacrificed himself for all of mankind.

Yep. Nothing quite as good as giving mankind the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. That is a real good policy.

Strange that if Satan is supposed to be so evil and sentenced to hell that God would give him dominion here on earth.

Justice delayed is justice denied is it not?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Yep. Nothing quite as good as giving mankind the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. That is a real good policy.

This would be, if you were looking at penal substitutionary atonement being an established fact, instead of a theory.
The Old Testament is full of verses describing the punishment of the innocent as being the most abhorrent thing to The Lord.
I would think that it is a case of one thing being right, or the other, meaning on one hand, the Bible, and on the other, man-made theories.

Man's secular law has surpassed God draconian insanity a long time ago.

No Christian is insane enough to want to live under God's law.

Notice that none do.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
In this case "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,", I take it to mean exactly what it says.

Regards
DL

Could you provide the supporting scriptural reference for that? Thanks.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Regards
DL

The answer, at least in part to this, can be found here (but it would require an open mind to actually delve into it and appreciate the meaning and significance.

www.youtube.com...

www.bethlehemstar.net...

What does it mean?
www.bethlehemstar.net...

But the Star means yet more. Jesus said in the Book of Matthew, Chapter 10:
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Many have marveled at Jesus' statement—that God's "mind" is so great that it allows his complete familiarity with the creation in all of its detail. We can barely begin to contemplate it. But confronting the Star, we see the same message.
For if the Star wasn't magic or a special miracle from outside of the natural order, then it was something even more startling. It was a Clockwork Star. And that is overwhelming. The movement of the heavenly bodies is regular, like a great clock. The Clockwork Star finally means that from the very instant at which God flung the universe into existence, he also knew the moment he would enter human history in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He marked it in the stars. And from before the beginning of time as we experience it, God knew the very moment when Messiah would breath his last on the cross.

Jesus is "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."
Revelation 13:8