Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral.

This always gets to me. It is the exact opposite of how I, a mom, treat my child. I don't go to my daugher and beat the crap out of her and tell her I'm beating her because the neighbor kid is bad. I don't beat her and then say to her ... 'I know you are innocent but I'm beating you anyways ... you still love and trust me, right?' It doesn't make sense to me at all.

Supposedly Jesus paid some kind of sin-fine for us all. And we are supposed to be like him and want to help pay off the sin-fines (or bad karma .. or whatever you want to call it) that others have done. So supposedly our suffering is supposed to be 'saving'. This is how the Catholic faith explains suffering. This is how many buddhists see suffering - that some are chosen ahead of time to suffer physically in this life to help others pay for bad karma and to move toward enlightenment.

I dunno ... from my human point of view .. it doesn't make sense to let the bad 'off' and make the good 'pay' for the bad actions of others. I struggle with it ... I don't see how a loving god-parent lets good people suffer. I'm really really trying .... but I struggle with it .... A LOT.

Originally posted by r2d246
Interesting post.... but I think the lack of replies comes from the fact that posts are kinda hard to understand.

This is a thought..... You might think you're right. You might feel as if his way isn't the right way and it doesn't make much sense to you.

But it's like this.... does a pot say to the potter.. "why did you make me like this?" or "Why is your work shop set up this way, I don't understand why you build us this way or why you built this work shop, or how it works?" Or "why don't you do your workshop more like this or that??".

So the pot is not allowed to ask the potter, who will sent it to endless purposeless torture in hell, why the potter made it with a hole if he did not want it to leak.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral.

This always gets to me. It is the exact opposite of how I, a mom, treat my child. I don't go to my daugher and beat the crap out of her and tell her I'm beating her because the neighbor kid is bad. I don't beat her and then say to her ... 'I know you are innocent but I'm beating you anyways ... you still love and trust me, right?' It doesn't make sense to me at all.

Supposedly Jesus paid some kind of sin-fine for us all. And we are supposed to be like him and want to help pay off the sin-fines (or bad karma .. or whatever you want to call it) that others have done. So supposedly our suffering is supposed to be 'saving'. This is how the Catholic faith explains suffering. This is how many buddhists see suffering - that some are chosen ahead of time to suffer physically in this life to help others pay for bad karma and to move toward enlightenment.

I dunno ... from my human point of view .. it doesn't make sense to let the bad 'off' and make the good 'pay' for the bad actions of others. I struggle with it ... I don't see how a loving god-parent lets good people suffer. I'm really really trying .... but I struggle with it .... A LOT.

g
Stop strugling and discard that immoral notion as just that.
It is not even scripture. It is just dogma.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Yours is a natural inclination towards doing the moral thing. Do not fight it.
You are stepping up where Christians are stepping back.
Do not stop doing the right thing.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

I used to have a bumper sticker that said "Lord, please protect me from your "followers" ". As far as my understanding of Chrsitianity, it was right on target. If you want to discuss something, I'll be happy to discuss it with you, but I don't have all the answers. I can tell you what I believe and why I believe it, but there is no absolute, concrete proof of anything.

If there ever was a true Christianity it was likely a Gnostic sect that knew of it.
You are more of a Gnostic candidate than a theist who has shut his mind off to reality.

gnosticschristians.com...

I like your view in all but the judging part.
That judging part is our job and duty to society.

Judge these for me.
Do you agree that they should be denounced and fought?

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

www.youtube.com...

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
www.youtube.com...

Jesus Camp 1of 9
www.youtube.com...

Promoting death to Gays.
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Not my place to judge on God's laws... however, it isn't their place either. I can only judge based on the laws of man since I am not fully aware of all of the laws of God and neither is anyone else. We try to follow them to the best of our knowledge and some of us have more knowledge than others.

By the laws of man, they often infringe on the rights of other while trying to exert their own. Their rights end where another's begins.
They incite violence, then cry about the violence. If hey choose to do so, then they recieve their own judgement in the reaction they incite.
Since only God can judge on God's laws, they are breaking the laws of man by overstepping their bounds and we judge them on that aspect. Men judge by man's law, God judges by God's law.

Man's law calls for justice for all people, equality for all people. Those people are breaking man's law by tring to infringe on the equality and justice of the given groups and should recieve punishment by man's law for what they do.
The only thing we, as men, can do is judge them based on our own laws. If they were to kill another person and recieve the death penalty, they have broken man's law and are punished by man's law. Afterwards, they will be judged by God, we simply arranged the meeting.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

The only thing we, as men, can do is judge them based on our own laws. If they were to kill another person and recieve the death penalty, they have broken man's law and are punished by man's law. Afterwards, they will be judged by God, we simply arranged the meeting.

What law of God's can be known when all that we have is what people have put into his mouth?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Anyone who truly understands Christianity and the notion of Grace will realize that it transcends morality and the edicts of "should and shouldn't", operating as a transformative principal by which one becomes increasingly motivated not to sin, but to love, which produces happiness of the lasting kind.

It sets us free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by GmoS719
I'm a Christian, and I could care less about your attempt to gloat.

That was a complaint more than a gloat.
As a follower of a genocidal son murder, I do not value anything that you have to say.
You are not as moral person.

Regards
DL

If you listen carefully, you can hear the plummeting IQ in this thread. You may have your reason for a lack of debate in your post right there. Sanctimony and a supercilious attitude rarely encourage discussion or reasoned debate.

Eric

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

The only thing we, as men, can do is judge them based on our own laws. If they were to kill another person and recieve the death penalty, they have broken man's law and are punished by man's law. Afterwards, they will be judged by God, we simply arranged the meeting.

What law of God's can be known when all that we have is what people have put into his mouth?

Regards
DL

edit on 28-6-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

Which is exactly why we can only judge on man's law

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Anyone who truly understands Christianity and the notion of Grace will realize that it transcends morality and the edicts of "should and shouldn't", operating as a transformative principal by which one becomes increasingly motivated not to sin, but to love, which produces happiness of the lasting kind.

It sets us free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved.

So then you would throw away morality, something the bible and all churches preach, just for the grace of an immoral human sacrifice.

What a pathetic attitude.

I see why you would rely on un-proven grace. You have no morals.

Regards
DL

reply to post by FlyersFan

Supposedly Jesus paid some kind of sin-fine for us all.

Yes.

And we are supposed to be like him and want to help pay off the sin-fines (or bad karma .. or whatever you want to call it) that others have done.

No. That's not possible. If Jesus had to pay my sin debt, how could I do anything to help you pay off yours? I would be in the same boat as you.

As a Christian I carry the message of God's redemption out into the world. I don't help anyone get saved. God does it all.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Please consider that the sacrifice was one willingly assumed, that Jesus got the last laugh at the "devil's" expense, and in the process the "strong man" was bound, and his house pilfered leaving nothing behind. It's the story of an absolute triumph.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Supposedly Jesus paid some kind of sin-fine for us all.

Yes.

And we are supposed to be like him and want to help pay off the sin-fines (or bad karma .. or whatever you want to call it) that others have done.

No. That's not possible. If Jesus had to pay my sin debt, how could I do anything to help you pay off yours? I would be in the same boat as you.

As a Christian I carry the message of God's redemption out into the world. I don't help anyone get saved. God does it all.

How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Please consider that the sacrifice was one willingly assumed, that Jesus got the last laugh at the "devil's" expense, and in the process the "strong man" was bound, and his house pilfered leaving nothing behind. It's the story of an absolute triumph.

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.

So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.



[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.

"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia


"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Think of Christ as the other side of the Buddhist coin, where one seeks liberation from all suffering achieving Nirvanna (heaven) and the other, having already realized heaven, assumes or takes upon himself the suffering of the sins of the world. It was the act of a fully self-realized Bodhisatva, whereby no compromise was made with sin and evil, and the standard set, which combines both a severe justice and a tender mercy, at the same time. In our sins there is separation from the absolute perfection (holiness) and perfect integrity (wholeness) of the Absolute Godhead, but in Christ and through his great work there is re-unification.

You assume too much of a differentiation between father and son when God is truth and spirit with the father in the son and the son in the father.

Edit to add: Yes, by innocent blood we are given the power to become sons of the living God. It is also a willing sacrifice which negates the need for any firther sacrifice, whether animal or human.

"I ask for mercy, not sacrifice."

Also, please bear in mind that it wasn't innocent blood taken, but innocent blood freely given.

"This is my blood."
"Do this in remembrance of me."

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Think of Christ as the other side of the Buddhist coin, where one seeks liberation from all suffering achieving Nirvanna (heaven) and the other, having already realized heaven, assumes or takes upon himself the suffering of the sins of the world. It was the act of a fully self-realized Bodhisatva, whereby no compromise was made with sin and evil, and the standard set, which combines both a severe justice and a tender mercy, at the same time. In our sins there is separation from the absolute perfection (holiness) and perfect integrity (wholeness) of the Absolute Godhead, but in Christ and through his great work there is re-unification.

You assume too much of a differentiation between father and son when God is truth and spirit with the father in the son and the son in the father.

Edit to add: Yes, by innocent blood we are given the power to become sons of the living God. It is also a willing sacrifice which negates the need for any firther sacrifice, whether animal or human.

"I ask for mercy, not sacrifice."

edit on 29-6-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

All except for the one last human sacrifice for the Gipper.

Nothing like ending human sacrifice with a human sacrifice.

Thanks for showing how good a thinker you are.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Also, please bear in mind that it wasn't innocent blood taken, but innocent blood freely given.

"This is my blood."
"Do this in remembrance of me."

Yummy. Cannibalism now.

Go away.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

It's about a spiritual truth, as a powerful allegory, you don't seem to understand and I'll admit that it's hard to grasp but when you do, the only real response it evokes is one of contrition or repentance, and of gratitude and joy, that all the "heavy lifting" has been done, whereby God (through Jesus and his great love) did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

The "difficulty" is that man, by his own human resources alone, cannot engineer his own salvation.

It's an absolute marvel once you "grok" it fully, to borrow a word from Heinlein's "A Stranger in a Strange Land" which means to understand something so deeply it's akin to eating and drinking it, or integrating it into our very being.