Thoughts on holocaust denial.

Let me begin by apologising if this thread is in the wrong forum, the gray area seems a good place for a few reasons. I suppose you could say that those who deny the holocaust are basically saying the whole thing is one big conspiracy. I don't want stars or flags, at all...but I'd like some responses as it's an important issue...if people can read and respond to a thread "Do you feel it?" where the OP contains 3 or 4 lines of vague nonsense, then they can take two minutes to chip in on this one, surely?

It's a touchy subject and one not many people seem prepared to debate, people have been arrested, charged and imprisoned for simply believing the holocaust never happened...so what? Who cares what others believe...what good does persecuting them do? Where does it stop? People blindly accept it as a crime and say nothing, is it a crime? To harbour such views I'd say no...to express them, that's a different matter...

Some dude being quoted in a newspaper or on some website claiming the holocaust is a lie...stupid, not worth worrying about, when teachers start to teach this nonsense to our kids then it becomes an issue...but I don't see that ever happening...it's a dangerous opinion in some regards and I get that.

But when all is said and done, a denier can only present a theory or case and it's up to others to form their own opinion based on that...nobody can force you to believe anything or agree with them, can they?


So I think that either people genuinely believe that it's the way to go, to imprison people who deny the holocaust...in which case I'm in the minority here, or they're scared to be as vocal about how they really feel...or they just don't care, period. I'd just like peoples opinions on this issue, first off here's a few links to give some insight...

en.wikipedia.org...
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
skepdic.com...

I know it's an old topic and has probably been discussed on ATS before, but it's an important and relevant issue even today. It's about free speech and censorship.

I don't doubt the holocaust took place, I've no real reason to disbelieve it, but do I think it's right to persecute someone who denies the holocaust? No...what's the point? Can you force someone to change their beliefs by incarcerating them? I don't think you can, you might condition them to some extent...they might learn how to hide their views and beliefs more...but I don't think it will change how a person truly thinks and feels, and why would you want to? Why get so uptight about someone expressing an opinion, be it an idiotic opinion or otherwise?

I find it bizarre that people think it's acceptable to imprison someone for having what some consider a down right stupid belief or opinion. It's just another form of control or censorship...in an attempt to distance themselves from the evil regime that was the nazi party...governments have become fascist dictators with regard to this issue...arresting people and locking them away for having a belief or opinion...we might aswell jail the people who think the moon landings were a hoax, why not?

I'm also interested to hear the opinions of anyone who believes the holocaust to be a big lie...what purpose would such a conspiracy serve? I never really looked at it as a conspiracy because I never put much thought or stock into the notion at first...I was always kind of looking at it from the wrong angle if you like...but it is still a conspiracy theory, even if it's one people seem reluctant to touch.

Anyone think the holocaust is a conspiracy? If so, why? To what end, what purpose would such a conspiracy serve?


I ain't gonna argue with or insult anyone for expressing their genuine opinions on this subject and would appreciate it if we can have a sensible conversation about this without it descending into an argument or trade of insults...if you don't want to hear other people's views on this issue I suggest you don't read or take part, keep an open mind and accept that you might read some things you might not like...other people might not like what you have to say, either.

If someone can say something that makes me think, or even helps me see it from a new perspective I might walk away from this thread realising that I was wrong, holocaust denial it is a crime...like I said it's not a troll thread, ain't looking for an argument...I think incarcerating people for believing the holocaust is a big fraud is pointless and stupid, if someone can show me that I'm wrong about that I shall humbly accept it...no insults or arguments - opinions and ideas are far more constructive :p

Although I agree it was a holocust, I see where the deniers are coming from in one aspect, look how many Soviets died, and the actrocities that also happened in Japan and China, Japan was rife with genocide.

In the grand scheme of things, emphasis has been put on the jews.

Maybe because they wanted mass migration into Isreal? Who knows?

reply to post by samerulesapply

I suppose you could say that those who deny the holocaust are basically saying the whole thing is one big conspiracy.

No, just because someone denies the official holocaust story does not mean they believe it has to be one big conspiracy.

what good does persecuting them do?

Well if you cant beat what they are saying I guess it is better to silence them then to have to face reality and listen to what they are saying.

..nobody can force you to believe anything or agree with them,

Well this is what pushers of the official story have done with millions if not billions of people haven't they. Most people don't even know the facts yet are almost religious on believing what they have been told.

I find it bizarre that people think it's acceptable to imprison someone for having what some consider a down right stupid belief or opinion.

Mind you these are the same people who think its acceptable to commit genocide on Palestinians when complaining about their own genocide. I think the lie that people should be incarcerated for talking is just another thing that has been pushed on a large amount of people by a small group looking for some type of gain. It is very much the sign of a society in demise.

I'm also interested to hear the opinions of anyone who believes the holocaust to be a big lie

I dont really hold any definitive views on the holocaust. I know that Jews were treated just like anyone else during that time and that a lot of people died. But their is a lot of evidence missing and people refuse to accept that. So the official story is impossible for me to believe until sufficient evidence is presented. It would seem that people were certainly not gassed that's for sure tho, at least not in such large numbers or so regularly.
Also the 6million figure is an utter joke.

I don't know if the holocaust did or didn't happen because I wasn't around during that time. But show me proof that it did happen. There's no proof out there other than eye-witness stories, which if you actually read them, seem pretty far fetched. All sorts of tales ranging from holocaust victims escaping and hiding in a cave and living for 2 years with no food or water by sucking on a rock, or kids hiding in a haystack 6 stories tall while they watched the gestapo gun down their entire village. When reading it, it seems like fiction in the fantasy genre.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I've yet to come across any proof that it did. IMHO I think the whole thing [holocaust] was grossly over-exaggerated or downright made-up as an excuse for our government to drag us into WWII and attack Germany. Same damn thing that happened in 2003 with Saddam's "WMD" that never turned up after we invaded. Of course the winners write the history books, and we were the winners, so we will never know for sure otherwise.

The Holocaust did happen, but I feel it's been sensationalized beyond it's weight, and the winners of the war bent the events a bit to showcase their moral righteousness/justify some of the atrocities they carried out.

Another thing, if they were planning to kill all these people, why did they tattoo them and keep records of all these people?

Over emphasized Jewish prosecution. Unit 731 was terrible, biological weapon testing on Chinese people, towns and villages.

The holocaust happened, but it was presented in a way to help get Israel instated as the Jewish homeland.

Stalin killed roughly 100 million of his own people in the Gulag camps.

reply to post by HumanCondition


Some interesting points...if deniers don't think it happened then they must believe the ooficial story to be inaccurate, exaggerated or just a lie...wouldn't those perpetuating the lie be conspirators?

I was kinda expecting more angry, defensive responses - quite refreshing to see people be so candid on this issue...I was starting to think I was alone in my views obn this issue but apparently not.

It's not something I looked into much until a couple of days ago, I need to read more about the whole thing...people hiding in caves and sucking rocks? Man, that's bizarre, and intriguing...need a few days off work to chill and read a bit more.

Thanks.

reply to post by satron


They did'nt want to kill them. The plan was to use them as slave labor for Hitler's "Germania". It was only when the tide of war was tilting against Hitler that the Nazis instated "The Final Solution."

reply to post by samerulesapply


uggh i hate responding to this..

I grew up in a Black and Jewish area of Detroit.

i personally know LOTS of Jews who had a number tattooed on their arms..

i personally know LOTS of Blacks, who's families originally came from Africa, against their will..

I personally know loads of dumb people, who never took the time to go to school.

if YOU know Anything, at all..
you know Slavery Happened..
the Holocaust Happened ..
and dumb people still are dumb..

i dont think dumb people Should be in jail/prison, JUST, for being dumb--BUT

when dumb people try to tell intelligent people, 3+7=9
i wanna lock em up,, just to remove them from the gene pool-- bbut THAT would be as asinine,
as Slavery or the Holocaust ...

so as my Bubbie would say,,, "let the Schlock, Schling"--(let the trash, hang themselves)

reply to post by AaronWilson


Yeah, I think they used the numbers to justify a Jewish state to further the west's agenda to dominate and pilfer the world. Looking back, it's hard to say it wasn't.

reply to post by WP4YT


proof ? how obscene. how arrogant, grotesque, disrespectful and obscene. I'm not going to bother as you will just cry "fake"

how about this. go to a concentration camp yourself, and report back

Once you study the holocaust enough with a skeptical eye it starts to seem ridiculous. An example is, six million jews died in concentration camps and did not fight back? And supposedly they knew what was going on, some jews were even workers who moved dead bodies and cremated their fellow jews, without resisting? And some accounts say there were not even more than a few german guards.

The arrival at auschwitz is also contradictory. Did they get gassed immediately off the train? Our did they get a hair cut first? Was it both? But why give them a hair cut if they are going to be immediately killed?

Wild reports now discredited include electrocution floors, soap and lampshades made out of human skin, shrunken heads. Ridiculous claims that are discredited by even mainline historians.

The pictures also show no proof of gas chambers but instead starvation and disease (again why or how would a systematic death camp wait until prisoners are starved before they kill them? How could they lift dead bodies as workers if they are starved).

Why would they do this? This massive conspiracy? Many reasons: legitimate reason to mass migrate jews from europe to palestine. Paint the nazis as terrorists. Reparations to victims of the "holocaust". Victim status to commit war crimes against palestinians. Excuse to invade any country that may threaten jewish interests.

Originally posted by AaronWilson
reply to post by satron

 

They did'nt want to kill them. The plan was to use them as slave labor for Hitler's "Germania". It was only when the tide of war was tilting against Hitler that the Nazis instated "The Final Solution."

I believe the original Final Solution was to send the Jews to Madagascar. Strange idea. I wonder what it was that changed their plan to killing them. Did they want to kill them? Or did a lot die from typhus and starvation because the ration line were cut due to Allies advancement?

reply to post by syrinx high priest


Pics or it didn't happen? Sorry, I know it's not a joking matter, but seriously...see this is the thing I don't get...blind acceptance on some issues...need proof on others...so to request proof of some claim on ATS...something rather inconcequential like "I saw an alien today" is fine...but to seek proof of one of the most infamous attrocities in history is grotesque?

I don't get it...surely if we can prove to ourselves without any reasonable doubt that the holocaust happened is far more important to us as humans than to upload some image of a UFO on ATS in order to assuage someone's lack of belief?

I think if someone has doubts and requires any kind of proof then fair play to them, if there is such a thing as proof of it all then let 'em have it...it's a fair and acceptable request...but people have this built-in kind of notion or idea that it's wrong or bad to even doubt these evens took place for a minute...deny ignorance? I'm not knocking your opinion...I fully expected this, such is the nature of the subject.

The holocaust has become this kind of sacrosanct issue whereby people need to tip-toe around being careful what they say.

reply to post by samerulesapply


i thought the thread was about Deniers ,, going to Prison..

how many??

who??

when??

and for how long?

reply to post by darrman


There are many cases...I provided links in my OP...also, there's google...

In any other case I can think of, if you deny some event from happening, there is no consequence. Why is the Holocaust different?

reply to post by samerulesapply


just trying you back,, into focus ..

of the op

deny-ers

not "proofers"



welcome to the "2 flag" death of a tread..

reply to post by darrman


I see it as opposite ends of the same spectrum...don't really get where you're coming from to be honest...If solid proof can be shownthat what we're told of these events is 100% true then the deniers have nothing much left to work with...

If someone responds to this thread and asks for proof then that's fine, i don't mind, I wanted peoples views and opinions on this issue as a whole. I stated in my OP that I wasn't trying to start an argument...and that anyone who takes part should be tolerant of others views and opinions...if someone says they want proof then that's fine by me.

Originally posted by darrman
reply to post by samerulesapply

 

just trying you back,, into focus ..

of the op

deny-ers

not "proofers"



welcome to the "2 flag" death of a tread..

edit on 6/13/12 by darrman because: add a thingy

Lol, that last line kinda told me all I need to know about you, every post has had a spiteful and rather confrontational arrogance about it...I don't know why you even took part in this thread...thanks for your input, however - despite the fact that it was the exact opposite of constructive.

Well done.