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Thoughts on holocaust denial.

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posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:34 AM
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Having visited a camp myself. i am in no doubt the Holocaust was real. We should also remember , it was not just Jews sent to these camps. The disabled, mentally ill, Gypsies and Homosexuals were also sent to these concentration camps.




posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 


Here is my feeling on it.

It obviously freaking happened, anyone denying it happened is an idiot.

That said, we should be allowed to investigate it, specifically, the magic number of Jews killed. Millions of other people died too, not just Jewish prisoners.

Some of the numbers and methods, I believe, are up for debate. This is where it gets murky....

Investigator A goes and tests the remaining gas chamber rooms for Zyclon B residue, the insecticide used to gas the prisoners. Problem is, there is not enough residue, and in some cases, none at all. As well, other reported gas chambers had doors with no locks.

Now that investigator isn't saying it didn't happen, he's saying, hold up, some of this isn't adding up. Yet, he is labeled a denier, and with that label, it is assumed he denies it happened at all.

I feel it should be open for investigation (not denial) because of the numbers that have changed over the years, the fact that the gas chambers and such at Auschwitz were built by the Russians after the camps were liberated, as well as the various stories about lamps made from human skin, furnature made from human bones, soap made from rendered human fat...

All of which were facts at the time, but are now known to be false.

Anyways, denial is insane, you can't deny it took place. But you can still investigate it to get a better understanding of what actually took place.

The liberation of Europe from the Nazis was a turning point in our civilization, and the liberation of the Jews and the creation of Israel dramatically changed the world power balance. Something as important as that should not be a taboo subject.

Israel was created for the Jews after the deathcamps were liberated, we should be allowed to get the full story about such a defining moment in history without fear of going to jail for thought crimes.

=====

Let me be clear.....

If tomorrow, evidence was produced to show that not a single prisoner, jewish or otherwise, was gassed, than all of the deaths were from camp conditions, etc etc...

This doesn't at all change the horror of that period for me. It doesn't change anything other than giving us a true picture of what took place.

I've always had a hard time believing in the mechanical factories of murder. But that's not because I dislike Israeli or Jewish people, it's because I could never imagine myself being able to do that to someone, and have a hard time believing that many people wouldn't. I have empathy, and can put myself in other peoples shoes rather easily. It's a blessing and a curse, the blessing is obvious, the curse is that since I can empathize, I can't be a dick to most people, because I would immediately know how it felt and it sucks.

But I'm not saying it didn't happen at all, millions died. I can't fathom anyone actually trying to deny the holocaust took place. I really can't.
edit on 14-6-2012 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Having visited a camp myself. i am in no doubt the Holocaust was real. We should also remember , it was not just Jews sent to these camps. The disabled, mentally ill, Gypsies and Homosexuals were also sent to these concentration camps.


Exactly as people are taught in school.

So either some posters here did not go to school, didn't pay any attention in school, or weren't taught about WW2 in school.

Makes you wonder...



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:39 AM
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funny the use of the word "idiots" on this thread
I guess thats what passes for a reference in certain circles
sad really thats the kind of attitude that makes the current camps possible

remember the fate of hitlers minions ?
( like the brownshirts)
and
have a nice day at the local fema camps



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by InfoKartel
 





Exactly as people are taught in school. So either some posters here did not go to school, didn't pay any attention in school, or weren't taught about WW2 in school. Makes you wonder...


WW2 as taught to me in High School was Liberating the Jews being wiped out by the Nazis, dropping a few atomic weapons on Japan, and starting the cold war with the Soviets.

The fact that other people, millions of other people, were rounded up into the camps before any of the anti-jewish laws took effect, was a footnote.

3 hour movie about Auschwitz that never once hinted at the fact that half of the prisoners in there weren't even Jewish.

But to prove both of our points, go talk to anyone anywhere, any age, and ask them what the holocaust was...

It was the Nazi attempted Genocide of the Jews, that is the answer you will get.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 


im arab female from middle east and from a young age i was fascinated with history so much , i read books and watched movies of the holocause even my british teacher snuck in banned dvds of the holocause gas chambers , i was very confused why would the goverment in my country ban these history info

............. until when i turned 18 years old in college library i was soooo bored i decided to google gas chambers on youtube until i was shocked that a guy called Dr.Leuchter had said there was no poison gas .... i thought that was a joke until i saw so many vids and artifcles ...........

there was no insult .... no hate ..... these holocaust deniers have had exposed many lies with facts and witnesses lies ............

for a month

yes thats right for a month ANGER , SADNESS , HATE BURNED INTO ME !!! HOW DARE THEY MANIPULATE MY FEELINGS !! ...... how dare the for years make me cry and feel sorry for them hating hitler and germans when they were

INNOCENT ALL ALONG !!! ...............google blacks and japanese in the nazi military too .....

the reason why they're in israel killing palestinians is because to hide from europe and the world ....

serioulsy

www.youtube.com...



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Danbones

Originally posted by EvanB
Having actually met some Holocaust victims and been to one of the death camps I will say that those who deny the holocaust do so because:

A) They are extremely stupid
B) They are bigoted anti Jewish morons not worth bothering with

But it is usually:

C) Both

I have zero time for these morons.. They are entitled to their views, but as one of the fools found out from me a few years back.. So am I.. Hopefully his broken nose will serve him a lesson..


bull
as the ex atourney genearal PIERRE BLAIS said at the tribunal of Zundle when the top gas chamber expert presented his findings for the defence..re the LACK of cyanide residue and the proven construction of certain chambers AFTER THE WAR
"THE TRUTH IS NO DEFENCE"

so again to your post I say
BULL

edit on 14-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)


"THE TRUTH IS NO DEFENCE????
edit on 14-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)


So who is in the mass graves then?? I have seen them, touched them, spoke to people who was there.. On both sides.. Have you??

Or is a few youtube videos and some books written by muppets that suit your own bias enough evidence for you?..

Quite frankly who cares what you think anyway...



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Too add.. Did you know that there are high rates of cancer in the Bergen Belsen area still now because of all of the carcinogens pumped into the air from that place??

Did you know that the British Army personnel who liberated Belsen made everyone in the Hohne Belsen area see the horror they let happen under their noses and made them clean it up??



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by Q8igirl
 


Innocent hey???


I suggest you get your head out of youtube and get in the real world..



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


Go easy. The programming is strong. It is hard to unplug oneself from the matrix. We have much invested there. Our entire lives. It is not easy to come to grips with the reality of the world wide cabal.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Holocaust Translation (Hewbrew) = Burnt Offering.

The Conspiracy relating to the Holocaust - General Assumptions:

(1) Jewish number of deaths has been over-estimated.

(2) Polish, Christian and other undesirables has been underestimated.

(3) Role of ‘Khazarians’ and the formation of Israel. Zionism.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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To read 20 or so comments just now is like a flash poll. It helps to paint a picture of both the average holocaust viewpoint and the typical ATS members understanding of that time in history.

In Answer to the OPs Question...Should a Person be Punished for speaking their Doubts Regarding the Holocaust Claims?

Most who've actually responded to the question seem to think, no. A person shouldn't be fearful of reprisal just for having beliefs or for asking questions about any matter. Some people avoid answering, so I can't derive from their comments what they believe. But, it's safe to say that tolerance for holocaust revisionism isn't likely their greatest quality.

Someone stated that their opinion, for which they had a right to have cost someone else a broken nose, was it? Another person claimed that they knew people who's "families" were brought over as slaves, while also personally knowing people (plural) with tattooed numbers on their arm.

I would like some of you to answer just a few questions, if you think you're well informed enough to do so. - Trying to help, not judge. Nobody should be ashamed of not knowing the specifics some have claimed.

  1. Have any Respected Jewish Holocaust Scholars or Institutions Revised their Death Toll Numbers to Below 6 Million?

  2. If the Company that Made the Cremation Ovens for the German Forces Produced a 6-Person Oven, Why Then Would Germany Decline Discounted Pricing on them and Instead Opt for the 3-Person Ovens?

  3. It's Understood that During WW1 Typhus Decimated the Ranks of both Forces. Lice was the Known Means of Contracting the Disease. With that Knowledge and considering Zyklon-B was the World's most Common De-lousing Agent at the TIme, Might the German Camps have Employed Zyklon-B to Thwart the Spread of Typhus?

  4. If the German Objective was to Exterminate the Jewish People, Why then are their So Many Survivors?

  5. Of the Jewish Holocaust Survivors, How Many are Troubled by the Accounts of Others that Claim to Have Been Personally Tortured by Mengele or More than Once Escaped the Gas Chamber?

  6. How Exactly Did Gas Chambers Work?

  7. If There Weren't Any Gas Chambers, How Then Were the Jewish People Killed?

  8. If the People Were Being Gassed, What Accounts for the Emaciated Appearance of the Bodies Found Piled Up Once the Camps Were "Liberated?"

  9. The German People Were Forced to Watch Propaganda Films Produced by Jewish American Filmmakers long after Wars End. How Might that Affect the Population and Ones Self Image?

  10. The Soviet Union Negotiated to be the Only Occupying Force in Berlin for the first 3 Months. Have You Ever Even Heard of Recorded Histories Most Brutal and Widespread Raping of a Population, That of the German Women during the time of Soviet Occupation?

  11. If the Goal was Extermination, Why Then Go to the Trouble of Inscribing ID Numbers on Inmates Arms?

  12. Are You Aware that The Jewish Prisoners of Auschwitz Had a Theater and Produced Many Plays and Even Some Musicals? They Had a Small Orchestra and Band. I Believe the Swimming Pool is Still There, Despite Not Being on any Tour Route.

Just some questions that, if answered would definitely be helpful in framing the whole era without assuming too much or falling victim to the group-think. It's fascinating how things become more clear the more informed you become of the holocaust legend.


edit on 14-6-2012 by TyrannyNews because: Wonky text formatting again.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 11:03 AM
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Here's a question. Was the Nazis the only group of people that headed the concentration camps and the holocaust?

Oh, and how much fuel was needed to burn all the bodies, and why would a country at war designate that much fuel for that purpose?
edit on 14-6-2012 by satron because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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Way I see it is, yes there were camps. Which turned into death camps, because the brits bombed all night and the americans bombed all day. All roads railways airports stations ect ect were bombed. There by not allowing food shipments to get to these camps. Plus the fact that in war, I would send any food to my troops before I would send it to a camp full of people. People who had declared war on hitler and his nazi party in 1936? not sure about the exact date, but the world jewish organisation did declare war on hitler and his party.
I feel more upset about the way Russia is glossed over and how this gang of jewish people, lenin trotsky stalin ect wiped out far more people than hitler did.
We brits started the war against germany after they invaded Poland. Yet churchill handed Poland over to the russians at the end of the war.
Its a crime deny the holocaust?
Why does the truth need to be protected? Why not allow every one to get to the bottom of it? Why make it a crime to investigate it?



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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Wasn't going to return to this thread after last night, seemed like it was going nowhere...glad I did, thanks for re-affirming my faith in ATS and reminding me that not all are here to troll and act as though they're special or important.

Actual, proper, constructive responses covering a whole range of views and opinions...some heated debates but still calm and civil, well...about as calm and civil as can be given the subject matter. I know it's something that most of us feel strongly about one way or another..

Someone (didn't note the name, apologies) pointed out that the general consensus seems to be that it's wrong to persecute those who deny or dispute the facts we're fed regarding the holocaust...and that's good because it leads me to the conclusion that people ain't dumb or fickle enough to let some idiot with warped or skewed opinions influence their thoughts and beliefs...which is a good thing in my opinion.

Holocaust denial is stupid...but to question the official version of events we're fed at school etc is not...it proves that people ain't so gullible...some are, but most have their head screwed on sufficiently enough to spot a nutter talking crap when they see one, which can't be a bad thing. If that's what the authorities fear - that we can somehow be corrupted or convinced it's all a big sham - then we've proven they've nothing much to worry about on that count...so I guess we've achieved something.

It's just stupid to persecute these so-called "deniers", as I don't think many good, decent people take them all that seriously...those who do take them seriously and agree with some of the more extreme opinions are simply marking themselves and exposing themselves. Let them state their idiotic opinions, let them clearly identify themselves...to persecute them will only silence them in the public forum and leave them free to feed their garbage views in less public forums, perhaps to those people who are gullible enough to listen and believe and possibly even repeat what they're told.

Anyways, I'm glad I came back and read over the responses...long may it continue, got some links and other things to look into - I don't know enough about this issue, I don't think we can ever know enough or fully understand it, but we can't ever forget it that's for sure.

Sincere thanks, for me this is what ATS is all about - this isn't some trumped up drivel someone has sat and dreamed up, this whole thread is based on something we know happened...we might not know exactly what happened, but we care enough to dig and ask questions, it's not paranormal, it's not extra-terrestrial...not that I've anything against that sort of thing...quite the contrary - but it's rooted in history and reality and I believe a worthy discussion...thanks to you all for responding and being so open..



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by InfoKartel

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Having visited a camp myself. i am in no doubt the Holocaust was real. We should also remember , it was not just Jews sent to these camps. The disabled, mentally ill, Gypsies and Homosexuals were also sent to these concentration camps.


Exactly as people are taught in school.

So either some posters here did not go to school, didn't pay any attention in school, or weren't taught about WW2 in school.

Makes you wonder...


I was taught many things in school, I was educated that America dropped atomic bombs on Japan to save lives. That was what I was taught in high school, it's what I wrote on my test when I got an A.

For the record, I'm not denying it happened, I wouldn't go down that road.

But imagine 70 years from now (if we're still around), children will be taught that NATO was such a humanitarian force that liberated Libya from the ruthless, mass murdering Gaddafi who was sending his troops out to masscare thousands of innocent people, women and children as well. Today, we know that didn't happen, but history will educate children that it did happen that way.

History is written by the winners.

Again, I'm not saying the Holocaust did not happen. Even if evidence came about saying it never, I'd have a hard time believing it because I've been brought up being made to believe it did happen through my education and the many forms of media that tell us about it.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:06 PM
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The website they have showing the names of which Jews died in the Holocaust has less than half of the number they claim died.

Our family name is shown on their website as Jew's who died in the holocaust. The dates for the 3 people with our family name who died in the Holocaust, show they died 40 years before WWII. Also apparently some anonymous people submitted their names to the registry.

Their database is corrupt. Appears to be many bogus names on their registry,some died decades before WWII. If anyone scrutinized their registry I think they'd find....the numbers aren't real.

I think the Nazi's killed people, their own and Jew's. But as for 6 million Jew's being killed, I think that's really too high.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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Oh, and how much fuel was needed to burn all the bodies, and why would a country at war designate that much fuel for that purpose?
reply to post by satron
 


They were buried in large pits and covered in lime... Not all were burnt.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:21 PM
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I don't deny it happened, but 6 million sounds preeeeetty damn high. 600K I could believe, but 6 million people killed and vanished?

Yeah I think that might have been overstated a wee bit.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:32 PM
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I´m a German. Those who deny parts of the holocaust or all of it shouldn´t be prosecuted.
Free speech must apply for every human, without exception. But we all know, free speech has a end somewhere, when it comes to hate, incitement, personal insult and so on.
Nobody should be prosecuted for telling his opinion.

I´m not denying holocaust and it was a terrible act of horror.
(btw: there were far greater genocides in history when you look at victim count, what about that? If someone does not know what I´m talking about, learn history, as I don´t want to derail. This fact does not make it any better of course.



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