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Thoughts on holocaust denial.

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posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by EvanB



Oh, and how much fuel was needed to burn all the bodies, and why would a country at war designate that much fuel for that purpose?
reply to post by satron
 


They were buried in large pits and covered in lime... Not all were burnt.


Not even the ones that contracted disease and died from it? I'm picturing a similar picture when Europeans were burning bodies when the plague was rampant.




posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:41 PM
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If Israel get's decimated, will the living Jews revive the fears of the Holocaust and no one would be able to question it without being considered an anti-Semitic Nazi?



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by verschickter
I´m a German. Those who deny parts of the holocaust or all of it shouldn´t be prosecuted.
Free speech must apply for every human, without exception. But we all know, free speech has a end somewhere, when it comes to hate, incitement, personal insult and so on.
Nobody should be prosecuted for telling his opinion.

I´m not denying holocaust and it was a terrible act of horror.
(btw: there were far greater genocides in history when you look at victim count, what about that? If someone does not know what I´m talking about, learn history, as I don´t want to derail. This fact does not make it any better of course.



The ther genocides did not involve specifically asking for a race in every cou try that the German war machine occupied , this is what makes it so horrific . It is very similar to what Muslims have done across Africa when sharia law takes over an area . People try to deny the one to two million Armenians killed by the Turkish Caliphate , It was not so much that they were Armenian as they were Christians that would not convert to Islam .



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 


One would be a fool to deny that a holocaust happened.
Now whose version will we be discussing?
Christians died en masse, so did Muslims, and some jews died too.
Many were thinned out by their own goverments.
About the jews, it seems nations since the dawn of time have been trying to rub them out.
Maybe we should step back and look at just why that is.
I do think the jews/israelites/semites/Etc. whichever angle they are playing at the moment, have stolen ownership of the victim card though.
I'm not worried about any holocaust denial as I am a man freeborn, people died on all sides, that is all that matters.
History will repeat itself and we will be too dumbed down to see it for the most part until the dust settles.
By then it will be too much of a shock for most to admit it and they will swallow that pill again.
Wash, rinse, repeat.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 


I believe the Holocaust Deniers know the Holocaust was very real. I think they are people who agree with the Holocaust and pretend to believe it was not real to advance an agenda. They are hard core Neo-Nazi's in fact, pretending they are not. Liars in other words. They want the Jew's and people they consider inferior dead.

My humble opinion, but I think I'm right.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by darrman
reply to post by samerulesapply
 




i personally know LOTS of Blacks, who's families originally came from Africa, against their will..





edit on 6/13/12 by darrman because: spellenglish


and on that note i'd like to chime in and add my irish iberian relative to the list of LOTS of irish whose family originally came from Ireland against their will....




posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Azadok2day
The ther genocides did not involve specifically asking for a race in every cou try that the German war machine occupied , this is what makes it so horrific


??? Lets oversee that its not necessary to teach me what genocide is and to tell me what grade of horrific it was.
Genocide has the goal to decimate/kill either a national, ethnic, race or religious group.
So I don´t know why you try to differ here. Genocide is genocide. In this case it was ethnic and religious. That´s not bound to a nationality, so it doesn´t make it "extra horrific" just because it was pursued in more then one country.

Your point is totally invalid by the nature of the word genocide.

They were all the same horrific because people died in all genocides.
To say the jewdish holocaust was more evil would be racist.
The grade to what "efficiency" our ancestors did that is what makes WW2 sadly outstanding.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by Lord Jules
Once you study the holocaust enough with a skeptical eye it starts to seem ridiculous. An example is, six million jews died in concentration camps and did not fight back? And supposedly they knew what was going on, some jews were even workers who moved dead bodies and cremated their fellow jews, without resisting? And some accounts say there were not even more than a few german guards.

The arrival at auschwitz is also contradictory. Did they get gassed immediately off the train? Our did they get a hair cut first? Was it both? But why give them a hair cut if they are going to be immediately killed?

Wild reports now discredited include electrocution floors, soap and lampshades made out of human skin, shrunken heads. Ridiculous claims that are discredited by even mainline historians.

The pictures also show no proof of gas chambers but instead starvation and disease (again why or how would a systematic death camp wait until prisoners are starved before they kill them? How could they lift dead bodies as workers if they are starved).

Why would they do this? This massive conspiracy? Many reasons: legitimate reason to mass migrate jews from europe to palestine. Paint the nazis as terrorists. Reparations to victims of the "holocaust". Victim status to commit war crimes against palestinians. Excuse to invade any country that may threaten jewish interests.


People are stupid that is the answer. It is easy to say, Oh I would do this, and I would do that... Look around you...

How many people are under the false presumption that they aren't taking away our liberty now?

How many people think the TSA is justified and is necessary? How many people would love to have guns limited to only law enforcement and military??/

These are all the same things that you are saying were ridiculous for the jews to do in concentration camps and people do it EVERY day...

People are stupid.

They want to believe that everything will be alright without them having to demand it...

The jews in that camp wanted to believe that someday soon, everything would be alright as long as they didn't do anything that would get them killed right then and there.

The people today want to believe that the govt. won't take away more of their freedoms even though all of the evidence and history should tell them that the contrary is the truth.

Jaden



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:36 AM
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Very interesting thread this one!!! I read a report stating that at one camp where x amount of people were cremated it has been proved to have been impossible. There was not enough fuel (wood), not enough transport for it anyway and there wasn't even enough time to cremate all of the people even if the ovens were burning 24/7 365 days a year. This is just one annonamoly, however I do believe the holocaust happened, I just doubt the numbers stated. And, to be imprisoned because you don't bellieve it happened is an abhorance, the people who advocate this no better than the nazis.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
reply to post by WP4YT
 


proof ? how obscene. how arrogant, grotesque, disrespectful and obscene. I'm not going to bother as you will just cry "fake"

how about this. go to a concentration camp yourself, and report back


I have been to the "concentration camps" myself. What am I supposed to see there? I see nothing at all the proves a "holocaust" happened. I do see some things that look like prisons, a few. Not nearly as many that my own country has in existence today. It was WWII, war is hell, of course there was going to be some place they locked up dissenters. But I see nothing at all that proves a "holocaust" happened.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Having visited a camp myself. i am in no doubt the Holocaust was real. We should also remember , it was not just Jews sent to these camps. The disabled, mentally ill, Gypsies and Homosexuals were also sent to these concentration camps.


I'm not saying the Nazis were great people. I'm just asking for proof that a "holocaust" happened. Yes there were and still are concentration camps in Germany; America had them too during WWII to lock up the German-Americans and Japanese-Americans. Yes, people were forcefully held there against their will, it IS after all PRISON. And yes, many people did die in those camps on both sides of the Atlantic, after all PRISON conditions are not favorable. Thousands died in America's concentration camps during WWII as well.

But show me any proof at all that there was a systematic plan to kill people at these camps? Sorry, didn't happen without proof. Do you know how much paperwork would have to be made and kept to keep tracking of the extermination of 6million+ jews (and hundreds of thousands of other dissenters). And the best proof there is of this "final plan" is a few top brass said off the record that's what the plan was?

Sorry I don't buy it.

War is hell. Conditions in the concentration camps were horrible, yes. Again, on both sides the concentration camps were horrible. But the "holocaust" is nothing more than make-believe to further an agenda.

Do I have any doubts millions may have had died in the concentration camps? No. I'm sure they did. I'm not happy about that either. But let's look at common sense - when you have people locked up in a concentration camp, and the enemy is bombing your supply lines and food is very scarce, I guess they are going to be more willing to give the limited food supply to the troops and their own people and not the prisoners.

That's all I'm saying. That's all common sense says. I know common sense is hard to grasp for some people that have a certain version of history indoctrinated in their brains. I had a hard time letting go to from my beliefs of the holocaust (guess what I have ancestors that were locked up in those concentration camps.) too. But after doing my own research I came to my own conclusions.

Gas chambers there? You bet. When you have prisoners coming in with lice and other infectious parasites, it's smart to send them through a chamber of zyklon-b (a delousing agent with research, not some deadly gas used to kill people) to prevent the others prisoners from getting sick.

Were there crematoriums? You bet, they had to get rid of the dead some how rather than let them rot and infect other people. We have crematoriums in prisons all over the country. Doesn't mean we are holocausting people!


edit on 15-6-2012 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 08:37 PM
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There shouldnt be laws against holocaust denial, any more than there should be laws for people who deny that men reached the north pole in 1909. The holocaust is well documentated, in large part by its perpetrators.

However it is true that the holocaust did not unfold as it is presented in movies. Only a small minority was murdered in the Ausschwitz gaschambers and other Gaschambers through Zyklon B. It was an imrpomptu solution for the facilty to run over capacity, where Zyklon B an delousing agent, was used in an uneffective way to kill some of the jews. Why Zyklon B? Because it was already in the system, each KZ had it and got supplied with it, all you needed was a closed chamber and you were good to go. A larger part was killed through bullets and an even larger part through starvation and desease. Most of the Zyklon B got used in fact for delousing, but you dont want to use that in a closed space.

The Reich utilized IBM computers to calculate how much food to allocate on average, so that an inmate could work, but still had so little that he would fall prey to starvation and desease. This was to accolmplish 2 goals. To avoid obvious killing of jews and prisoners of war on German turf (Shooting gassing) and to have a workforce. The inmates got moved thrgouh the system and only those who survived long enough or werent deemed usefull, ended up in dedicated murder camps where co2 was used in the gaschamber.

Some people dont deny the holocaust, but give a lower figure of those murdered, not counting those who fell prey to famine and desease. However they were put in a system that was meant to kill them in that matter, therefore they still count as murdered.
edit on 15-6-2012 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 


I haven't read any of the other comments really, I just wanted to give you my thoughts on it.

When checking the links, and most notably, the wiki page. On there about the laws, it also says most of those countries also have "hate speech" laws. Also, all the countries that have bans in it were directly involved in the holocaust unlike us in the USA. I mean that as in they were the ones being invaded, enslaved, and killed, but here in America we just provided help.

It comes down to me as a means to not disrespect the massive numbers involved, to a lot over there there is a good chance they had relatives that in some way were a part of it all, be it good or bad. An example that comes to mind about my point of disrespect and having freedom of speech, is when there was a homosexual soldier who died in combat and some church decided to protest at the funeral. It kind of relates to that of anyone who would have had to bury someone who passed away that was a survivor of the holocaust. For the soldier, they had signs about how the kid deserved to die, they were happy that he got shot and killed. To me having freedom of speech that doesn't ban hate speech like that just puts even more stress on a family that has endured so much already. To those people involved or related to those in the holocaust know enough of the horror stories and don't need to be slapped in the face pretty much, telling them they are lying and it never happened.

It is indeed a very sad part of history, and to me having laws against things like that are the only respectful thing to do in those countries directly involved and invaded during the war. It is not so much having freedom of speech but making sure we honor those who had to suffer. Like in my example, I may not agree with the ideas of being homosexual, but to disrespect grieving families in pain is an utter lack of humanity.

Honestly, on occasion I wish the freedom of speech here in America would be limited on occasions. People need to learn to be more humane and respectful. It was a terrible time and with laws against denial like that it helps keep a more humane society. Genocide is in no way a joke and to deny something of that nature that has ample proof it happened pretty much shows the lack of humanity in the person spouting it forth.

Well, that is my two cents, take from it what you will. This is just my take on the matter and why the rules are in place.



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by Cassius666
There shouldnt be laws against holocaust denial, any more than there should be laws for people who deny that men reached the north pole in 1909. The holocaust is well documentated, in large part by its perpetrators.

However it is true that the holocaust did not unfold as it is presented in movies. Only a small minority was murdered in the Ausschwitz gaschambers and other Gaschambers through Zyklon B. It was an imrpomptu solution for the facilty to run over capacity, where Zyklon B an delousing agent, was used in an uneffective way to kill some of the jews. Why Zyklon B? Because it was already in the system, each KZ had it and got supplied with it, all you needed was a closed chamber and you were good to go. A larger part was killed through bullets and an even larger part through starvation and desease. Most of the Zyklon B got used in fact for delousing, but you dont want to use that in a closed space.

The Reich utilized IBM computers to calculate how much food to allocate on average, so that an inmate could work, but still had so little that he would fall prey to starvation and desease. This was to accolmplish 2 goals. To avoid obvious killing of jews and prisoners of war on German turf (Shooting gassing) and to have a workforce. The inmates got moved thrgouh the system and only those who survived long enough or werent deemed usefull, ended up in dedicated murder camps where co2 was used in the gaschamber.

Some people dont deny the holocaust, but give a lower figure of those murdered, not counting those who fell prey to famine and desease. However they were put in a system that was meant to kill them in that matter, therefore they still count as murdered.
edit on 15-6-2012 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)


thank you, that's much more closer to the truth



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 02:15 AM
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Holocausts happen every other page in the Old Testament. We should have days of mourning for them too.

Hitler loved god... and did exactly what god did to his enemies in the Bible. What would you expect from a world so poisoned with religious stupidity?



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 04:42 AM
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reply to post by deathlord
 


You made quite an interesting point, I remember watching a documentary a few years ago, louis theroux meets the most hated family in america...people picketing the funerals of soldiers who died in battle and I fully agree, this is freedom of speech at it's worst and most extreme.

What was most disturbing about it was how these people were conditioning and basically brainwashing their children into their way of thinking...for anyone who hasn't seen it I'd recommend giving it a watch. Here it is on youtube, unfortunately it's split into 3 parts, but runs for around 40-50 minutes: The following link leads to part 1, follow the links on youtube or search for parts 2 and 3 if you want to see more.

www.youtube.com...

It's unfortunate that people abuse free speech to this extent, it's even more unfortunate that they preach this to their kids who are too young to understand. There's one particular scene where a young boy is struck with a an object (a cup of juice if I remember correctly) while picketing a funeral with his "family"...yet they are unrelenting and adamant that what they're doing is so righteous. It's both compelling and disturbing and well worth a watch.

So I get where you're coming from, free speech is a kinda double-edged sword in some respects...having people like this spout hatred and condition children is quite a high price to pay for the right to speak your mind. Picketing funerals with signs featuring slogans referring to "fags" etc is nothing short of disgusting...but also, the idea that certain aspects of the attrocities that took place during WWII are exaggerated or dumbed down is also disgusting.

I remember learning about this stuff at school and all emphasis was on how many jews died...as if they were the only denomination that suffered and were persecuted...barely any mention of anyone else. This is also freedom of speech in operation...telling us only a small part of a much bigger picture and in a sense conditioning and indoctrinating us into a way of thinking, and it's evident now when you discuss this matter with most people nowadays...6 million jews died in that war, people simply repeating what they're told and accepting it blindly...yeah, 6 million jews may very well have died - and the rest? What about non-jews killed, what about those who were killed by those other than the germans/nazis?

Education on this issue seems selective and it's right to question that in my opinion, why the emphasis on that aspect and the rest overlooked as if it's less important - an abuse of freedom of speech. The same as what that family in the louis theroux documentary are doing to their kids only it's on a much larger scale and perhaps less obvious.

That's me exercising my free speech right there...I don't think it's as ugly as picketing the funeral of a dead soldier to ask such questions, it's not callous disregard for those we're told died. I hope it doesn't come across that way as I'd hate for a minute to think I might be compared to those who picket the funerals of dead soldiers.

As a side note - I haven't watched television for a few years, but mr theroux is quite inspiring and I like his style, his was one of the few shows still worth watching back when I watched television. Well worth looking up.



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 07:36 AM
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Here are parts 2 and 3 of the louis theroux film I linked to in my last post:

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

I can't find part 4, either that or it's cut short and there is no part 4. There are other uploads of this same film on youtube, but they're split into 8 parts, etc...so it's all there just takes a bit of digging about. I'd forgotten most of it having seen it a few years ago, it's quite shocking.

The sermon given by the pastor towards the end where he is shouting "You're gonna eat your babies!" is totally bizarre, and I have to admit I started to laugh when he said it.


There's a follow up film made by theroux which I hadn't seen, the most hated family in america in crisis.. Louis returns to find that some members have left the church, and they'd been taken to court ofver the picketing of a soldiers funeral..Fortunately this film is one complete upload, not split into parts:

www.youtube.com...

Nothing is mentioned about the holocaust in this or the previous films, they're not really about that so sorry if it seems off-topic, but it's striking how relevant these films are with regards to freedom of speech and the negative effects it can have - especially when people are free to preach this kind of hatred to children.


Another one that's perhaps more relevant is split into a number of parts, louis theroux and the nazis. I'll like to part 1, and leave it to those of you who are intereted to find the other parts:

www.youtube.com...

More brainwashing of young children, the film begins with a young girl who looks about 10 or 11 years old and her mother using black tape to create a swastika on the floor. It's all rather playful, as if it's a normal, every day activity they both enjoy together.



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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The cynical truth comes to us by way of an obscure extremist group, which boasts:

"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."

www.nizkor.org...



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by HumanCondition
reply to post by samerulesapply
 

I suppose you could say that those who deny the holocaust are basically saying the whole thing is one big conspiracy.

No, just because someone denies the official holocaust story does not mean they believe it has to be one big conspiracy.


what good does persecuting them do?
Well if you cant beat what they are saying I guess it is better to silence them then to have to face reality and listen to what they are saying.


..nobody can force you to believe anything or agree with them,
Well this is what pushers of the official story have done with millions if not billions of people haven't they. Most people don't even know the facts yet are almost religious on believing what they have been told.


I find it bizarre that people think it's acceptable to imprison someone for having what some consider a down right stupid belief or opinion.
Mind you these are the same people who think its acceptable to commit genocide on Palestinians when complaining about their own genocide. I think the lie that people should be incarcerated for talking is just another thing that has been pushed on a large amount of people by a small group looking for some type of gain. It is very much the sign of a society in demise.


I'm also interested to hear the opinions of anyone who believes the holocaust to be a big lie
I dont really hold any definitive views on the holocaust. I know that Jews were treated just like anyone else during that time and that a lot of people died. But their is a lot of evidence missing and people refuse to accept that. So the official story is impossible for me to believe until sufficient evidence is presented. It would seem that people were certainly not gassed that's for sure tho, at least not in such large numbers or so regularly.
Also the 6million figure is an utter joke.


apparently you refuse to deny ignorance, thus you are on the wrong website. the holocaust was one of the most documented atrocities in history. if you do not accept the massive amount of verifiable evidence that was gathered, even the documentation by the Nazis themselves, you lack the critical thinking skills to have any type of credibility.



posted on Jun, 16 2012 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by samerulesapply
 



I don't know how many Jews dies in WWII and by how? If Jews say 6 million Jews died by gas chamber in WWII, then I'll say 6 million Jews died by gas chamber in WWII.

But I do know one thing.

Anytime a proclamation, or "fact," or historical point of view is made law (as it is in Europe) and is illegal to question, there most likely is some real problems with this proclamation, "fact," or historical point of view.

Again, if Jews say 6 million died via gas chambers, then I'll agree. But if they have to make it illegal to even suggest questioning this narrative, then there probably is something very much wrong with this narrative.



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