China will Decimate the US Naval Fleet

reply to post by DevilJonah

As to the second article in the OP post, China seems to be focusing on older technology now rather than going the route the USN is. Within the next decade the major ships of the USN will have some form of laser anti missile defense. 'Star Wars' at sea: US Navy could deploy laser weapon in two years They won't be able to be overwhelmed like the Chinese strategy dictates.

On a side note, why would China announce to the world how it would wage a war with someone? Not very good strategy or tactics IMO.

reply to post by Krono


Star for you Sir, It's nice to be able to share a little good natured nationalistic pride without having the conversation devolve into vitriol and insults.

Back on topic....

Originally posted by jimmyx
sorry...but this article assumes defense ONLY by the ships being fired upon...there are other options of defense which will not be released to the public.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by DevilJonah

 

As to the second article in the OP post, China seems to be focusing on older technology now rather than going the route the USN is. Within the next decade the major ships of the USN will have some form of laser anti missile defense. 'Star Wars' at sea: US Navy could deploy laser weapon in two years They won't be able to be overwhelmed like the Chinese strategy dictates.

Politics aside, the success of the Israeli Iron Dome system during the recent Gaza flareup spoke volumes about the current state of western ABM capabilities when faced with saturation attacks.

The USN has been working on countering sophisticated anti ship missiles for over 40 years. As Pavil's link above clearly indicates, practical ship-based directed energy weapons are a reality now...

“We’re well past physics,” Rear Admiral Matthew Klunder, the chief of the Office of Naval Research (ONR), told Wired Magazine’s ‘Danger Room’ blog in an interview after announcing his expectations.

“We’re just going through the integration efforts,” he added. “Hopefully, that tells you we’re well mature, and we’re ready to put these on naval ships.”

Regardless, I agree with Fireman205253's neighbor...

A few weeks ago I was talking to him, and we were talking about the growing tension throughout the world. I posed the question to him about what he thought China stance would be. He said the Chinese, would stand beside the US because there economy depends on the US importing Chinese goods. Of course this was his opinion, however he does travel to China every month, and does talk to his old military friends. I don't really know if that would be China's stance or not but I can see that China's economy would take a huge blow if the US wasn't importing their goods.

reply to post by DevilJonah


Let China dream. The U.S. has weapons that would wipe China out completely in minutes that nobody knows about. Let alone our navy would stomp them in the dirt with what we have known.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by DevilJonah

 

Let China dream. The U.S. has weapons that would wipe China out completely in minutes that nobody knows about. Let alone our navy would stomp them in the dirt with what we have known.

yup, think harmonics, used in the context of metals disintergrating from tuned frequencies, think propellant ignition systems already under torsional stress from firing, being engulfed by them.

reply to post by Citybig


Why can't I star your post? All I see is a ~ where the star should have been.

Originally posted by coldweather
reply to post by Citybig

 

Why can't I star your post? All I see is a ~ where the star should have been.

They have been banned.

reply to post by DevilJonah


Hurrazz Amurica
Yes, the USA is of course at the top of this list... oh wait, is that the sound of you falling flat on your face?

We amrucans yay!
And yet again, another article where the USA is number one (in lies?) of course.

Uhh.... you liars... we number one
I'm sure you will like the link above because in this list you guys are ACTUALLY number one and not just in your head.

Originally posted by DevilJonah
Side note...Germany has been awfully quiet...where do they stand in the growing doom and gloom of WWIII?

edit on 11-6-2012 by DevilJonah because: rework title

edit on 11-6-2012 by DevilJonah because: (no reason given)

Waiting for the US/UK alliance to collapse and for the United States of Europe to take over as the global influential leader.

China and Russia will not allow that to happen, WW3 is Europe vs. China Russia. The US and UK will already have fallen.

God Bless,

If China decimates the 5th fleet they will be nuked to oblivion and the Great Wall will be known as the Great Pile of Rubble.

No decimation of the 5th fleet = no decimation of China. Hence nothing is going to happen.

Next.

Originally posted by ElohimJD
Waiting for the US/UK alliance to collapse and for the United States of Europe to take over as the global influential leader.

Because the Euro trade zone has been such a resounding economic success story?

Originally posted by ElohimJD
China and Russia will not allow that to happen, WW3 is Europe vs. China Russia. The US and UK will already have fallen.

China's economic structure is dependent on a healthy trade relationship with the U.S. and U.K. If their economies implode, China goes right along with them.

The PRC and Russian Federation barely tolerate each other out of necessity, that some people get the idea that some super alliance between Russia and China is going to rise up and destroy the west is a fantasy.

Did you know the rail gauge widths used by China and Russia are different?

The rail cars stop at the border and are lifted by crane to swap the wheel bogies. It is a huge waste of time and money in and industry where time is everything.

Do you know why they do this?.

Originally posted by ElohimJD

God Bless,

Wishing economic devastation upon some 400 million people?

Save it.

Originally posted by ElohimJD

Originally posted by DevilJonah
Side note...Germany has been awfully quiet...where do they stand in the growing doom and gloom of WWIII?

edit on 11-6-2012 by DevilJonah because: rework title

edit on 11-6-2012 by DevilJonah because: (no reason given)

Waiting for the US/UK alliance to collapse and for the United States of Europe to take over as the global influential leader.

China and Russia will not allow that to happen, WW3 is Europe vs. China Russia. The US and UK will already have fallen.

God Bless,

Let me guess.....it says so in the bible? A messenger appeared before your eyes in a dream? You were insanely high on drugs as you posted this?

the next war will be fought over resources. it will be fought diplomatically, by economic war, by proxy war and at last by open war that may end in limited nuclear exchange and WMD attacks on US soil.

south china sea is one of future conflict zone between asian nations around it.

china dont have to be in open war with US, she can do lot of harm indirectly :

- financing and arming arab terrorist to harm US military and civilian assets all around the world.
- arming proxy nation like NKorea to rattle US and regional nations.
- activating their human assets in US soil to wreak havoc, sabotaging military bases and goverment facilities like water and electric and communications system.

all these covert and proxy activities will tie up US military assets with simultanious occurence all over the world. these will be done mostly with help of nations hostile with US, those who dont want to see US dominates the world. in the classic "your enemy is my enemy" , these enemies will band together and forget their differences just to hurt US in a big way. Note that i say Hurt and not Destroy USA, because i think america can defend itself but it can get costly in term of assets lost and lives lost. With that kind of asymetrical war, it make no sense for Us to declare open war on all the perpetrators, it will make it even worse.

would US risk open war with china or russia over covert / proxy war ? against countries that have nuclear arsenal? the only war thats possible with nuclear countries are limited war. Try pushing too far and suddenly it goes nuclear, either limited exchange or full blown MAD.

can china or russia or other countries attack US carrier battle group ? off course they can. Their tactic should be to overwhelm the defense with Decoys and Drones. While i think it wont destroy whole battlegroup, it will.cause havoc and destruction, especially if the attack come in WAVES and combined with air and submarine assault and maybe some sea mines too.. Both sides will suffer losses for certain, US will suffer deep shock to their confidence and morale since they do not foresee a major naval debacle. The world outside NATO will be watching and cheering the US naval debacle.

witness how a resource strapped argentina can wreak havoc to british fleet in falkland war. with just 4 exocet and dumb bombs the argentinian air force / naval air harrass the fleet , imagine if argentina got hundreds of exocets, there will be massacre of british fleet off the coast of malvinas. UK's deep cut on their military budget severely impact their armed forces, the same can be said to nations of NATO since they are too comfortable under the umbrella of US protection.

Underestimating your opponent is a sure way to lose some of your soldiers to ambush.. romans lost 80000 legionaries from the germans in cimbrian war, again in Teutoburg forest ambush, Destruction of roman armies in persian war.. destruction of british 1st airborne in Arnhem, destruction of german's 6th Army in stalingrad, destruction of japanese carrier battlegroup in midway, destruction of US navy battleships in pearlharbor, destruction of british army in singapore, destruction of US forces in philiphines WW2, destruction of french army in worldwar 2, destruction of french forces in dien bien phu, destruction of athenian army in syracuse, destruction of gauls in alesia, and so on

a good example on carrier battle group under attack is in Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising. Since the book is in collaboration with larry bond (simulationg the battles in Harpoon's system) it read better than pure Clancy. The nasty call of Vampires (missile inbound) are particulary chilling, ditto with the ASW warfare in modern environment.. this is no falkland little kid's combat, this is big boys combat..

Originally posted by princeofpeace
If China decimates the 5th fleet they will be nuked to oblivion and the Great Wall will be known as the Great Pile of Rubble.

No decimation of the 5th fleet = no decimation of China. Hence nothing is going to happen.

Next.

edit on 18-12-2012 by princeofpeace because: (no reason given)

i do not think US will resort to nuke for the lost of their carrier battle group. there are other ways to retaliate without going nuclear and thus inviting nuclear attack on US soil. will US accept a loss of even single US city to nuclear exchange?

US cannot openly attack nuclear capable countries with nukes / WMD unless china use nuclear ordnance to destroy 5th fleet. and even then a threat of nuclear blackmail (eg nuke suitcase bomb on US soil) will make them think twice about nuke exchange.

as for china attacking 5th fleet, unless this is open war, china dont have any reason to attack it. if it is open war then its a fair game as long as all ordnance is conventional. a loss of 1 or 2 battlegroup to massive chinese missile attack with massive decoys and submarine attack are horrible losses to US but hardly crippling to US combat power. It will destroy US morale and confidence though since they arent used to accept big losses, which is a weakness itself.

no single country today would want to meet US armed forces in fair fight, but what happen if all of US enemies attack at once? iranian and islamic terrorist cells on US soil activated to sabotage US assets and communications, destroy infrastructure and infiltrate military bases, in accordance to destruction of US garrisons in middle east area and North Korea attacking the South and Arabic nations attacking Israel enmasse.. Nuclear weapon used in limited number in middle east and korea.. massive radioactive fallout all over the world, EMP detonated over canada and US precursor of all out nuclear launch from russia..

no matter who won the war, whats left over of earth will be harsh for the survivor.

Nukes are not in vogue and we aren't sure what there is but deniability is the name of the game these days so I could see China facing a rash of earthquakes,asian genetic biologicals and even a Scalar response,God knows what we really have in orbit.

reply to post by drphilxr


AMEN

FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT.

Kudos to you.

I see you ACTUALLY looked up military history.

You are dead on/

The USA won those wars because not only did we have more we could affoard to loose but one other critical factor you did not mention.

We had the time to learn from our mistakes and in many cases re-learn what we had paid for in blood in past wars.

We may not have that same luxery today.

One other fact that was not mentioned was that china has a large land mass with plenty of room to hide renforced defenses, offensive systems and man/material.

Like germany had with russia all they need to do (and probibly already have) de-centralize their military and production.

Unlike the later days of WWII we do not have the resources to bomb every square inch of land to distroy military targets. Our over reliance on military intelegince (to be honest we don't have that much accurate on china) and smart weapons means all they have to do (like the russians) is so hide miltary targets and cause us to waste our LIMITED SUPPLY OF BOMBS,

This also does not take into account that we do not have the aircraft, ships, troops, tanks, ect. to throw away to wear down the enemy.

Lastly we always counted on our technological superiourity in satalites, communications and control systems to overcome any enemy.

Have we forgot we KNOW china has the technological know how already to do cyber attacks that our own military admits they are not totally able to defend against.

Sunziu teaching seem lost on our so called military leaders.

Remember he was chineese

reply to post by scrounger


I just have to laugh at this whole thing.. Really???YOU know how much and how accurate our intel on China is???

What branch of military intelligence did you work in??? I was in military intelligence for 6 years. We know practically everything about China's military capability. There's not much specifically I can say; however, China would not even dare to try and engage us in open waters, they are limited to littoral warfare. China's best bet if they wanted to attack the US is to smuggle ground troops in via container ships and take over ports and then move into population centers.

As the Japanese said, they would find a gun behind every blade of grass if they did. As long as we are buying their stuff, this is NOT going to happen.

If we were to place economic sanctions on them, it might.

Their C802s are capable of taking down our carriers, but our carriers are only for projection. If they invaded us, we would have air force bases that are well more capable than our carriers.

Besides, if they did land on our shores, they would have to plan on living here, cause we could nuke the hell out of China then. What could they do in retaliation, nuke their own troops??

Now that is an oversimplification obviously, because the US is a big place and they couldn't hope to hold the whole country.

They might be able to hold most of the west coast. I don't know if they have missiles with a long enough range to reach the east coast or not, it's been too long since I did a threat assessment on China and I always only cared about the west coast anyways, since that's where I'm from.

China has been trying to reverse engineer a carrier from Russia, but I don't know how far along they've gotten. It would probably require a decade or more to even get close to having a projection capability even remotely possible of continging with the US Navy.

The US Navy is the most powerful Navy in the world by FAR, especially since Russia hasn't had the means to maintain their fleet and mostly it has gone to mothballs.

Jaden

Originally posted by Masterjaden

China has been trying to reverse engineer a carrier from Russia, but I don't know how far along they've gotten. It would probably require a decade or more to even get close to having a projection capability even remotely possible of continging with the US Navy.

They haven't been trying to reverse engineer anything when it comes to a carrier. They outright bought the Varyag from Russia and have refurbished it, and flown their first aircraft off the deck. They are currently working on an indigenous design for a carrier.

reply to post by Citybig


NEWSFLASH dipsh*t, the ratio of Taliban killed to US troops killed is something like 5 or 10 to 1. Also, we have lost very few helicopters in Afghanistan, and no tanks. We only have a dozen or so tanks in the whole country.

reply to post by Masterjaden


Really, you want to stand by your LAUGHABLE, SIMPLISTIC, AND UNREALISTIC rant?

I have seen this rant before and its tragic results.

Remember WWII?

We has such great intellegence on the japanese, and gemany didn't we?

How about how more advanced our weapons were as opposed to those two foes?

Or what about how strong our defenses were at pearl harbor, guam, or wake island?

Why don't you ask poland, france, or england how inferior the german war machine was in the begining?
Or how german submarines sank ships off our own coasts with impunity?
Or how the japanese navy and air forces were initally doing rings around us?

We were lucky we had distance and manufactering capablities to rely on to catch up?

Or how fast the russians got the a-bomb?

Or lets go to the korean war.

How the north koreans staged a stunning attack and nearly drove the US forces to the sea?

Remember the suprise our fighter pilots got with the mig jet fighters we "KNEW" the russians could not create for a decade or more?

Or the suprise we got when all those chinese solders came over the yellow river and almost decimated our forces?

How many times did the former soviet union during the cold war sprang some new system, ship or weapon on us we were told by our "intellegence" community could not exist/did not have?

Does sptutnik ring a bell?


Now on today.

We already know the chineese have shown a unexpected, effective, and demonstrated cyberwarfare capability that our own military was forced to admit it was having trouble dealing with?

Look I don't claim to think there is information, weapons, and capablilties we have that are not published.
But it is IRRESPONCIBLE and Unealistic to believe that sword does not cut both ways.

Now I don't think the scales are all for one side or the other.

But we have a very clear history of the thinking you posted with the disasters that have happened.

The things that make this more of a concern over the examples of say WWII.

1. The weapons available today (nuclear, boilogical, chemical, conventional, and tech distroying) are more portable, harder to detect, easier to aquire, and more distructive than in the past.

2. We are more interdependent on technology and on a personal level less independent.

Common someone cant get to the grocery store in three days, cant get to an atm, heck even loose access to the internet will lose it.

3. Our manufacturing capablility is GONE.

4. Distance is no longer a protector.

In short we are more vulnerable than in years past (on many levels) that a "pearl harbor" attack could cripple us severely.

Our military is no longer able to fight a two front war much less have the supples even to maintain a full fledge one front war for very long.

Heck the loss of even one carrier would hurt us very badly.

I know this seems like gloom and doom/

All I am saying is your attitude has been tried before with disasterous results.

But this time if we repeat history we may not be able to recover as we did before for victory.

We need more than ever to be vigulant, prepare, learn from our mistakes, and most of all get some humility.

Originally posted by DevilJonah
I've been trying to group together the powers for the coming conflict, but maybe I'm just missing where Germany fits in to the whole thing. Seems to me that they've been relatively quiet when it comes to all that's happening.

Germany is now an economic power in Europe. Their army is total pants as they learnt their lesson after the country was reduced to smoking ruins in 1945.