German elite are discussing various scenarios involving the use of force to ensure control over Gree

Originally posted by jrmcleod
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Nightbringr, i wasnt calling Flavian stupid, i was saying, who is the stupid one i.e. Germany for lending the money to a bankrupt nation or the Greeks for not paying their taxes! To me its the Germans and the MF lendimg the money who are "more stupid".

Fair enough, but the Germans were lied to, werent they? Goodman Sachs helped Greece lie to get into the EU. Goldmans and Greek finance ministers and anyone else who would have known should be held criminally responsible.

But yes, the way i see it right now, the Germans should wash their hands of this mess and stop handing over money. If they Greeks actually followed through with austerity, i would think otherwise.

Why are you all pretending that the "money" the banks loaned to Greece was not "made out of thin air" by fraudulent banking practices to begin with? Banks loan funny money, Greece fails to pay back funny money after spending it carelessly, banks absorb real assets as repayment (land, industry, etc.). How have none of you picked up on this yet? You see it happening in the USA; the Fed (banks) loans the government "money" which is "made out of thin air", government fails to pay back funny money after spending it carelessly, banks absorb real assets as repayment. This is the entire goal of the fraudulent banking industry, to make loans they know their debtors will never be able to pay back in order to gain possession of real, tangible assets.

reply to post by OrchusGhule


Because it is not funny money made out of thin air, it is money of people who have an account at the particular bank that lends it.
If i deposit 1000 euro, the bank can lend out 900 of it, but needs to keep a 100 as reserve, that is in short how fractional reserve banking works.
The bank that makes money out of thin air is the FED and every other central bank.

Originally posted by earthling42
reply to post by OrchusGhule

 

Because it is not funny money made out of thin air, it is money of people who have an account at the particular bank that lends it.
If i deposit 1000 euro, the bank can lend out 900 of it, but needs to keep a 100 as reserve, that is in short how fractional reserve banking works.
The bank that makes money out of thin air is the FED and every other central bank.

edit on 28-5-2012 by earthling42 because: spelling

That is not how fractional reserve banking works, that's how they want you to think it works, but I don't have time to explain it to you. There is a multitude of source material out there, specifically Modern Money Mechanics which describes in detail how and why your statement is only partially correct and does not describe the entire loan cycle and its effects on the money supply. Also, I'm not referring to paper money, I'm referring to electronically created money. Suffice it to say, they want you to think that the hard working German taxpayer has been subsidising Greece's decades of luxury and comfort. This is simply not the case.

reply to post by OrchusGhule


1000 euro can become up to 10.000 when leverage is 1 to 10
No money is created, it simply goes from hand to hand.
A bank does that through lending out that money, they do not create any money.
If banks were able to do that they would not have such problems as they do now.

you know what's funny. when germany and japan bust out their secret nukes, because the soldiers and commanders on base in those countries were to busy playing x-box and facebooking instead of controlling 2 of the most destructive societies on earth.

especially in the case of germany that started 2 world wars and are responsible for the death of over 60 million people.

hitler wanted a 1000 yr third reich, instead they should have a 1000 year 9 pm curfew.

Originally posted by randomname
you know what's funny. when germany and japan bust out their secret nukes, because the soldiers and commanders on base in those countries were to busy playing x-box and facebooking instead of controlling 2 of the most destructive societies on earth.

especially in the case of germany that started 2 world wars and are responsible for the death of over 60 million people.

hitler wanted a 1000 yr third reich, instead they should have a 1000 year 9 pm curfew.

Wow. I got news for you pal. The US is the most destructive country on earth. We've started more wars since WW2 than the rest of the world combined.

Oh and Germany didn't start WW2, Japan did in 1936. Germany just restarted the Great War, since they got screwed over so badly by Britain, France and the US. Look at the terms of the armistice. We crippled and destroyed Germany. They had every right to be pissed for being treated so unfairly.

If Germany starts WW3, hopefully we'll be on the right side this time.

reply to post by StupidShouldHurt

Wow. I got news for you pal. The US is the most destructive country on earth. We've started more wars since WW2 than the rest of the world combined.

While the US is not innocent, I would not go so far as to say it is the most destructive nation ever.

Oh and Germany didn't start WW2, Japan did in 1936. Germany just restarted the Great War, since they got screwed over so badly by Britain, France and the US. Look at the terms of the armistice. We crippled and destroyed Germany. They had every right to be pissed for being treated so unfairly.

Germany would have been fine if it wasn't for the Nazi party coming to power. The results of World War 1 did influence WW2, but to say "they had every right to be pissed" is going a little far.

They had no "right" to commit genocide and attempt to take over Europe. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Nationalist Japan and Spain remain symbols of what we should not be, and what we should fight against.

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by StupidShouldHurt

 

Wow. I got news for you pal. The US is the most destructive country on earth. We've started more wars since WW2 than the rest of the world combined.

While the US is not innocent, I would not go so far as to say it is the most destructive nation ever.

Oh and Germany didn't start WW2, Japan did in 1936. Germany just restarted the Great War, since they got screwed over so badly by Britain, France and the US. Look at the terms of the armistice. We crippled and destroyed Germany. They had every right to be pissed for being treated so unfairly.

Germany would have been fine if it wasn't for the Nazi party coming to power. The results of World War 1 did influence WW2, but to say "they had every right to be pissed" is going a little far.

They had no "right" to commit genocide and attempt to take over Europe. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Nationalist Japan and Spain remain symbols of what we should not be, and what we should fight against.

edit on 29-5-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

I didn't say ever. I said on Earth. As in current history.

If it wasn't for Hitler coming to power, providing all those unemployed starving Germans to work, the country and it's rich history would have fallen apart and been lost to the ages. Thankfully, it wasn't.

Originally posted by StupidShouldHurt

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by StupidShouldHurt

 

Wow. I got news for you pal. The US is the most destructive country on earth. We've started more wars since WW2 than the rest of the world combined.

While the US is not innocent, I would not go so far as to say it is the most destructive nation ever.

Oh and Germany didn't start WW2, Japan did in 1936. Germany just restarted the Great War, since they got screwed over so badly by Britain, France and the US. Look at the terms of the armistice. We crippled and destroyed Germany. They had every right to be pissed for being treated so unfairly.

Germany would have been fine if it wasn't for the Nazi party coming to power. The results of World War 1 did influence WW2, but to say "they had every right to be pissed" is going a little far.

They had no "right" to commit genocide and attempt to take over Europe. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Nationalist Japan and Spain remain symbols of what we should not be, and what we should fight against.

edit on 29-5-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

I didn't say ever. I said on Earth. As in current history.

If it wasn't for Hitler coming to power, providing all those unemployed starving Germans to work, the country and it's rich history would have fallen apart and been lost to the ages. Thankfully, it wasn't.

Wow, that is one very confused statement if ever i have seen one. Hitler got to power because of the collapse of the Weimar Republic and the ensuing hyper inflation. When people have nothing, extremists gain appeal. This is proven all over the world and throughout history.

Hitler, on gaining power, set about a programme of public works to infrastructure, ie new dams, roads, bridges, factories, etc. This economic system only works in the short term as it relies on mass public spending. Sooner or later (always sooner on the scale Hitler undertook) the funds run out and that leaves you with the problem of what next. For Hitler, this was rapid foreign expansion (ie, resource looting). In other words, it is a totally unsustainable economic system.

Hitler was a useless economist, appalling military tactician and a pyscopath. However, fortunately for him, he was also very charismatic and great at public speaking.

reply to post by Germanicus


The whole "fat lazy American" thing has been beaten worse than a zombie horse at the undead OK Corral. We know, we understand, etc. etc.

Beyond that, you do realize what would happen if the US and Germany ever 'teamed' up militarily, right? There's not a whole lot the rest of the world could do unless you got the Russians and Chinese to come to your aid, and they probably wouldn't bother.

And Greece shouldn't have been enjoying such wonderful socialist programs if they weren't willing to actually WORK for them. I feel sorry for the average hard working Greek citizen and can empathize, but austerity is what happens when you spend too long at the well without working to replenish it.

reply to post by Dreine


The Germany military is relatively weak and is much weaker than the UK or France.

reply to post by StupidShouldHurt


The country and it's rich history of genocide and racism. British, German, Dutch, and German empires were responsible for countless genocides during what can only be described as the rape of the African continent.
Aside from that, Hitler may have saved thousands of Germans from starvation, but he then killed thousands of them...
would you use the same logic to justify the cultural revolution in China?
Not totally sure where you are coming from... but I don't agree with your analysis.

reply to post by michael1983l


True, in it's current form. No need for them to currently bulk up the military.

I was thinking more in line with past mobilizations. Germans are very industrious and hard working... it wouldn't take them long to really start churning out the hardware were things to come to that.

Not that I think they will. I think the days of a kinetic world war are behind us. I could see more of an asymmetrical war (like Afghan) or cyber warfare, but I digress.

The level of illiteracy exhibited in this thread is jaw-dropping to say the least.

The People of Greece will have to learn to support themselves and stop leaching off others. They sound like spoiled brats who think the world owes them, which of course it does not. Greece ate it's candy and now it want's everyone else's just handed to them. That much is clear.

All of the problems Greece is facing are self-inflicted. Let them fix it themselves. Blaming others is a form of denial, not reality. They can't pay, let them do without and stop enabling them. It's up to the Greeks to get their children under control and teach them you have to put in before you can take out. Give them all a piggy bank like you do toddlers and teach them that when it's empty, you can't buy any candy. When it's gone, it's gone. Let them learn to produce their own products and live off their own money.

Lots of juvenile posturing in this thread.

As an aside, the bigger the penis the smaller the brain.

As you were ......

Wow, I was hoping to read a thread with intelligent discussion on economics.
Instead, it's filled with anti-German vitriol.
It's left me feeling disgusted.

Anyway:

Fair enough, but the Germans were lied to, werent they? Goodman Sachs helped Greece lie to get into the EU. Goldmans and Greek finance ministers and anyone else who would have known should be held criminally responsible.

But yes, the way i see it right now, the Germans should wash their hands of this mess and stop handing over money. If they Greeks actually followed through with austerity, i would think otherwise.

I agree with this.

I'm pretty disappointed in the level of discussion in this thread myself. The simple truth is a bailout of Greece is a bailout of German and other nations banks. Those banks have billions of PIIGS debt on their balance sheet and due to the insane amount of leverage in those institutions an actual default will require immediate bailouts of many European banks.

Greece should have never been allowed in the Euro. It is pretty much agreed that they lied and cheated to get into the EU in the first place. But to say that Germany hasn't benefited from the weaker nations in the Euro currency is disengenuous at best if not downright dishonest. The southern European ( Club Med if you prefer) countries like Italy and Greece have a long history of devaluing their currencies to get their economy going. They got a stronger currency that allowed them to purchase German goods. Also, German banks were more than happy to lend Euros to the Club Med countries so that they could have a market to sell their goods and services to. German producers got markets that they could sell products into without having to worry about a strong Deutche Mark inhibiting demand, and German banks got a market they could lend Euro's to at a higher interest rate than they would be able to lend at home. It worked well until it didn't.

I personally think the Greeks should default as soon as possible and re-issue Drachmas. They get Austerity either way actually, but they do it on their terms and get to keep more of their national income by defaulting. Adhering to the austerity measures set by the global bankster cartel the Greeks will pay the banksters first and then have only the crumbs as their toil goes to the vaults of the cabal before paying for needed services and national expenses. If they default they still get austerity, but they will keep more of their national income. Not that default will be pleasant on them, they still have to figure out what level of government they are able to pay for with only what they can take in revenue. Greece is still a sovereign nation and still has things of value to rebuild with. A Greece with a re-issued weak Drachma immediately becomes a tourist destination for those with more valuable currency which the Greeks can use to shore up their finances. Greece is still a sovereign and I imagine has trade goods that are worth something, they traded before they had the Euro and I'm sure they will be able to trade after it.

I guess the Greeks have to decide if they want to be just another footstool for the global bankster elite or if somewhere in the national psyche is the culture that gave us so many things that we take for granted in the occidental world. I hope they tell the banksters, be they German, French, Dutch, English, American, or Swiss to go to hell.

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by Daedal

 

I think that Greece,Spain and Portugal should declare War on Germany. I dont think France would help them now. The United States/IMF would. I think these countries need to call the bluff of the United States and Germany.

Maybe Germany and the United States would fight them but would any other Western Nation help the US and Germany? I think we would all rally behing the Greeks,Spainiards and Portuguese.

The enemies are becoming clearer.

Seriously? You are pro-war after all we've seen between terrorists, between many nations, and Obama's 'Kinetic action' and legalization of assassinations, even of 'his' own Citizens?

Greece, Spain, and Portugal are corrupt and lazy countries that mis-managed their finances. Germany and other hard-working countries are bailing them out., and have demanded investors forgive massive amounts of debt to Greece. So in return these countries should turn on their rescuers and attack them?

War is bad.

Corruption is bad.

Laziness is bad.

Expecting handouts is bad.

Attacking rescuers is bad.

It's funny that some are getting down on this thread-----I think it's one of the most literate, well-argued, intelligent discussions on the financial crisis I've seen on this board. Perhaps my standards are just low, however, living in the south in the US where grammar is optional and people know a hell of a lot more about grease than Greece.

Germany and Greece both played their own roles in this crisis, as did the rest of Europe and indeed the world, and no one is blameless here. Everyone got their piece of the pie before it was all carved up. Even down to the little guy, who never bothered to question where all the easy money and booming business of the 90's and early 2000's came from. We all failed.