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German elite are discussing various scenarios involving the use of force to ensure control over Gree

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posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


That is untrue, Icelands default is already forgiven and forgotten as was the Argentinian debt that they defaulted on all those years back. International debt is nothing, the country should look after the good of its own people, not the good of the rich investors who lend them money. Politicians all too easily forget who they have been elected to represent.

*also the reason their exports isn't high beyond olive oil and cheese is that they rely heavily on imports. this will be naturally adjusted if they took the route I suggest and would make them more competative in the long run.
edit on 28-5-2012 by michael1983l because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


Don't be so touchy....you are more than aware that I have repeatedly acknowledged our eternal gratitude to our Commonwealth cousins in Australia, New Zealand and Canada for their unswerving friendship.

And I'm sure you are also aware of the intent behind the post....a little light hearted dig at your neighbours to the south and our's on the continent.

ETA.

And just add, apologies for going slightly off tack - I really don't want to derail this thread.
edit on 28/5/12 by Freeborn because: Add ETA



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 


Iceland defaulted on a couple of billion. That was due to collapsed banks in a small population. That is entirely a different scale to Greece and it is actually rather disingenuous to try and compare the two.

Argentina, again with far far lower amounts, is actually a better example (i concede) - however, Argentina hasn't been forgiven. Earlier this year, Obama raised the case of Argentina with the Paris club. The intention being that Argentina should be forced to pay through the nose if they continue to default on those earlier debts (to the tune of $40 billion). In essence, Argentina may very well still be called to account. In reality, Argentina is still paying through the nose for any loans they wish to take out.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:20 AM
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I actually feel sorry for the Germans. Many still carry around some guilt from their past and get quite offended when other's in Europe start comparing the current Germany with it's NAZI past. It's not Germany's fault that Greece is in a mess. It's not Germany's fault that they are a successful hard working nation.

The Greeks should never have been allowed into the EURO, it was only through extortionate loans and creative accounting from Goldman Sachs, that allowed Greece to join in the first place.

The failure of the EURO can not be laid at the door of the Germans. The whole thing was a bad idea. The fact that Germany is left carrying the can should not mean they have planned this whole thing to take over Europe.

The whole thing is going to fall like a deck of cards and the Germans will be dragged down by the rest of Europe. The Germans are not our enemy.
edit on 28-5-2012 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


But Greece continuing with the austerity plan will not bring down the cost of borrowing for them. It will take them 100 years to pay their debts, their defacit alone is above 150% of GDP. There is no way the Greeks can afford to pay their debts, that is just something we need to accept. So what if they don't get to borrow money at good rates in the future, maybe they can get themselves to a stage where they no longer need to borrow money each year just to survive. Thats what all countries should aspire to be.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I actually feel sorry for the Germans. Many still carry around some guilt from their past and get quite offended when other's in Europe start comparing the current Germany with it's NAZI past. It's not Germany's fault that Greece is in a mess. It's not Germany's fault that they are a successful hard working nation.

The Greeks should never have been allowed into the EURO, it was only through extortionate loans and creative accounting from Goldman Sachs, that allowed Greece to join in the first place.

The failure of the EURO can not be laid at the door of the Germans. The whole thing was a bad idea. The fact that Germany is left carrying the can should not mean they have planned this whole thing to take over Europe.

The whole thing is going to fall like a deck of cards and the Germans will be dragged down by the rest of Europe. The Germans are not our enemy.
edit on 28-5-2012 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)


I think that is not what creates peoples opinions of Germany. The EU state was created to be a union where power was distributed accross the whole union. Now under Merkel she appears to think that she runs the Union and what she says goes, just because the Germans are playing a large part in underwriting the debts of Greece and the rest of the PIIGS. That ammounts to a hostile takeover in terms of business so why not in politics?

The EU has been engineered to at some point reach the stage of one government for all member states. I just can't wait for a referendum to come for the UK so we can vote ourselves out of the socialist state. That is if it ever comes.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 


Once Greece goes, Spain is next, then Portugal and Italy. The games up. There is not enough money n the planet to save these nations. The failure of the EU to me would suggest there is no way a One world Government could possibly work. Maybe i'm just not seeing the "bigger picture"



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:30 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


fair enough

we need to focus TOGETHER as people or we are going to get knuckled under by the bankers
doubt it will happen though

if greece and the rest of us don't stand like Iceland did, Us they and the other piigs are toast



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I actually feel sorry for the Germans. Many still carry around some guilt from their past and get quite offended when other's in Europe start comparing the current Germany with it's NAZI past. It's not Germany's fault that Greece is in a mess. It's not Germany's fault that they are a successful hard working nation.

The Greeks should never have been allowed into the EURO, it was only through extortionate loans and creative accounting from Goldman Sachs, that allowed Greece to join in the first place.

The failure of the EURO can not be laid at the door of the Germans. The whole thing was a bad idea. The fact that Germany is left carrying the can should not mean they have planned this whole thing to take over Europe.

The whole thing is going to fall like a deck of cards and the Germans will be dragged down by the rest of Europe. The Germans are not our enemy.
edit on 28-5-2012 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)


I think that is not what creates peoples opinions of Germany. The EU state was created to be a union where power was distributed accross the whole union. Now under Merkel she appears to think that she runs the Union and what she says goes, just because the Germans are playing a large part in underwriting the debts of Greece and the rest of the PIIGS. That ammounts to a hostile takeover in terms of business so why not in politics?

The EU has been engineered to at some point reach the stage of one government for all member states. I just can't wait for a referendum to come for the UK so we can vote ourselves out of the socialist state. That is if it ever comes.


Sorry, the Eurozone was created by France in order to stop Germany from becoming too strong in Europe - it was designed as a check on Germany (which Germany was happy to accept, what with still suffering from war guilt).

I actually thought the latest German proposals were for Greece to follow an east German unification rebuilding type plan? If so, surely that is a good thing?



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by michael1983l
 


Once Greece goes, Spain is next, then Portugal and Italy. The games up. There is not enough money n the planet to save these nations. The failure of the EU to me would suggest there is no way a One world Government could possibly work. Maybe i'm just not seeing the "bigger picture"


Again, this appears to depend on who you believe. I have actually read many accounts that basically say the problem in the Eurozone is uncertainty of debts and major banks, rather than a lack of cash. Basically intimating that when confidence can be restored in this area, the money will start to flow again.

Not sure i believe that either! However, as with most things, i suspect the truth is probably somewhere in the middle ground between that outlook and the more common total gloom outlook.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 08:00 AM
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bailouts are not free. They are loans which will be repaid at interest. all of this money has been gobbled up by the corrupt greek financial sector. For me this whole scenarios is indicative of an overreliance on the finacial sectors of all countries. We simply can't seem to let them fail even when they should fail. The inevitable consequence of this is a shift in decision making from the state to business, and destruction of the democratic ideal. money is a tool and when it starts destroying society it is very sad... the greek crash has resulted in most of the state property being sold off to German and french interests. i also don't believe germany is stronger because of it's culture, but because it has the most highly developed industrial and agricultural infrastructure in all of europe. the myth of german superiority is just that, a myth, they're just like us really.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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Well i have no sympathy for the euro, it's zone members, or for the way it has been foisted on countries under the guise of a better for everyone european state.
Angela merkel has a lot to answer for, the sooner all of the states rescind to their natural states, and van rumpypumpy and the rest of the european fascists get their fingers burned off, the better.
This was never going to work, providing stupid loans to try and make it work to countries that cannot afford them is as daft as making a law to sell only straight bananas.

The German people, are quite happy to indulge their intolerances of a people they are being programmed to despise as being "corrupt" and "Lazy", to me, this is the pot calling the kettle black, both those terms can quite as easily be applied to members of the european parliament.
Blame the greeks, its their fault.
When was the last time the european parliament was audited?, isn't is supposed to happen every year for the parliament to maintain its status?, Go knock yourself out, have a look at the fugures for fraud and misappropriations within the EU parliament since its inception.
The greek bailout is chicken feed in comparison, but yet, they are to blame, how very conveniently blind the german people as a majority are, and thank god, they, like you and many others are easy to lead by the nose.
otherwise this whole process of riding roughshod over entire countries, wouldn't be so easy.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by The X
 


The toruble with the Eurozone is that very few states have given their people a direct say on wether they should be part of it. and the ones that were like Ireland were asked to vote again when the wrong answer came back on the lisbon treaty. The Eurozone is a dictatorship under the guise of pseudo-democracy.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 09:48 AM
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Greece Smeesh! The Golden Fleece!
I hardly hear a word about the real roots of this stupidity.
When are the people themselves going to smack their heads, and unstick their eyeballs to the fact that this is an all out assault upon the whole free world.
Your country, my country, its all the same.........
If we arent going the way of Greece at a more sedate pace ill eat my own shorts.....!
All this debt adds up to enough to enslave the entire world to work their lives away just to keep the interest up.
And what is money?gaaaah!
The Greek people need to reject the calls for repayments and simply walk away from the whole mess.
The Greek people then need to decide how they can take care of each others needs and what they actually do need to import.
I assume they must have some rights to undersea oils off cyprus and other assets they can exploit over time,.....
Until then, they must start to garden everywhere they have open space.
If they can feed themselves, they can survive and grow stronger.......Like Iceland, they need to throw out the bankers, and deal with the reality of survival of their people.and their independance.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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Greece is being used as an example for the rest of the EU that their future "depends on" the Euro's success, and for that to happen there must be central governance of the EU itself, and not this democracy that "keeps producing more debt and uncertainty because of local politics" etc etc etc. That's how this is being spun already, we have calls for the United States Of Europe all around. All part of the plan.


"On 1 January 1999, with the introduction of the euro an important part of national sovereignty, to wit monetary sovereignty, was passed over to a European institution...The introduction of a common currency is not primarily an economic, but rather a sovereign and thus eminently political act...political union must be our lodestar from now on: it is the logical follow-on from Economic and Monetary Union,” then German foreign minister Joschka Fischer told European Union lawmakers just days after the introduction of the euro in 1999.

Fischer was not alone, with many of the founding members of the euro zone making it clear that the single currency was significant as a stepping stone to political union.

"The single currency is the greatest abandonment of sovereignty since the foundation of the European Community...it is a decision of an essentially political nature. We need this United Europe...we must never forget that the euro is an instrument for this project” said Felipe Gonzalez, then Spanish prime minister.

edit on 28-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


With all due respect Flavian, and i appreciate the point you are making but who is really the stupid one here?

I would personally say its Germany and the rest of Europe, not Greece.

What ever happened to due diligence? Why did the lending countries not execute some intelligence and say...

"hang on a minute, you guys ain't paying your taxes, we wont get our money back, so because of that, we want you to leave the Euro immediately unless you restructure EVERYTHING".

Instead, Germany and the West (IMF) just keep on throwing money at every country in trouble. This isn't going to fix anything. I personally believe our world wide economic principles are set to fail over and over and over again and its about time humanity put something in place as a replacement and phased out money altogether.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by jrmcleod
 


Except Germany has very much lost the appetite for throwing money around - they realise it is a waste (hence the revised plans based on the rebuilding of East Germany following reunification).

The Greeks were sold a pup, of that there is no doubt. That there leadership willingly engaged in this is actually also not really the issue. The real issue is that the structural deficit is so poor in Greece because of the inability to collect taxes. If for example, Greece had actually collected even close to proper taxes for the last 3 decades (or longer), they would be in a far better position than they are now. And really, there is no one to blame but Greece for the inability to collect their own taxes.

If these taxes had been collected, Greece would have been far closer to maintaining a healthy economy...............

Obviously though, if i were Greek i would be perfectly aware that being mainly responsible for your own downfall is more hindrance than help - at least blaming others provides an external scapegoat for people to unite against.

I would have far more respect for the Greek politicians, past and present, if they actually held their hands up and admitted that at least half of the mess is of their own making.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by Daedal
 


I think that Greece,Spain and Portugal should declare War on Germany. I dont think France would help them now. The United States/IMF would. I think these countries need to call the bluff of the United States and Germany.

Maybe Germany and the United States would fight them but would any other Western Nation help the US and Germany? I think we would all rally behing the Greeks,Spainiards and Portuguese.

The enemies are becoming clearer.


Yep, great idea!

Borrow money hand over fist and run your country into the ground a la Greece, then when neigbours help you by giving you money and simply asking you to get your finances in order, your solution is to attack them militarily? What.........the..........fack............

Greece got themselves into this mess through years of massive deficit budgets. Germany, being a model of economic prosperity and financial responsibility is now being blamed? Why? Because they help Greece and simply ask them to get their books in order.



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by Daedal
 


I think that Greece,Spain and Portugal should declare War on Germany. I dont think France would help them now. The United States/IMF would. I think these countries need to call the bluff of the United States and Germany.

Maybe Germany and the United States would fight them but would any other Western Nation help the US and Germany? I think we would all rally behing the Greeks,Spainiards and Portuguese.

The enemies are becoming clearer.


Well done,easily the most ridiculas statement ive ever read on the Greek situation.

What would three bankrupt nations have to gain by declaring war on one of the most powerfull armys in NATO?
The situation would play out like this:

Firstly they would be immedietly thrown out of NATO, then they would be hit by every economic sanction known to man by the UN.Then they would have their entire military infrastructure annihilated in possibly in less than 48 hours by Turkey,Britain,US,Italy,Poland,France,Holland, and Germany with support from at least 10 other nations.Populist support for them by european peoples would mean nothing.They wouldnt be consulted.NATO would go into full attack mode and it would be over before anyone could shout stop.
edit on 28-5-2012 by auraelium because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by jrmcleod
With all due respect Flavian, and i appreciate the point you are making but who is really the stupid one here?

I guess if we are calling people stupid, then it would be you?

Originally posted by jrmcleod
What ever happened to due diligence? Why did the lending countries not execute some intelligence and say...

"hang on a minute, you guys ain't paying your taxes, we wont get our money back, so because of that, we want you to leave the Euro immediately unless you restructure EVERYTHING".

Except they did thier due diligence, didnt they? But Greece lied. And Goldman Sachs helped them cook their books in order to get into the EU. If they had been honest, there is no way in help they would have been allowed in in the first place. Goldman Sachs and the finance minister of Greece at the time should be held criminally responsible for selling out the people of Greece.

So the blame falls 100% upon Greeces shoulders.

Originally posted by jrmcleod
Instead, Germany and the West (IMF) just keep on throwing money at every country in trouble. This isn't going to fix anything. I personally believe our world wide economic principles are set to fail over and over and over again and its about time humanity put something in place as a replacement and phased out money altogether.

Hell no, why should it? Heaven forbid a country might loan money to its failing neighbours in a hope they might recover and not be a drag on their economy! Heaven forbid Germany, lending money hand over fist to these irresponsible neighbours might put any demands on them such as cleaning up their economy and spending responsibly!

Naw, we should just assume money grows on tree, a country can spend twice its GDP each and every year and never have to worry about their future or paying anything back.

edit on 28-5-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-5-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



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