Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

reply to post by Rosha

1 in 3 girls raped before 16 is ok..police that beat you senseless for exercising your civil rights is ok..corrupted judges and bought and paid for politicians are ok...25 years for stealing a hundred bucks is ok but stealing 3 billion gets you holiday camp for 3 months - social inequality and injustice is ok....mega corps polluting the food chain and ending the cycle of birth on this planet is ok..a pharmacological industry killing millions and drugging 2 yr olds

No, not ok, why in the world would you think I think these things are ok?

And if you were to bother engaging your brain, you would note that the religious nutcases are also the same people who engage in these types of activities.

reply to post by InfoKartel

Originally posted by InfoKartel
You really believe that the woman in question is FREE? That she CHOSE her religion?

Yes. I have no reason to believe anything other than that. She's an American Adult. I am not so arrogant that I think I know better than her what her religion should be or which religion she should choose. She's an adult woman born in the USA and she is free to do as she pleases.

I didn't choose my childhood religion either. I was indoctrinated into it. But as a free adult in this country, I chose differently.

Do you know Islam? I would bet you don't because Islam is intrinsically opposed to freedom! In fact, they pride themselves in being anti-freedom!

Christianity is intrinsically opposed to freedom, too. All religion is. And yet, people still choose to follow them.

...something that is oppressive and anti-freedom in nature,

That's your opinion. If the woman were asked if her headgear or religion are oppressive and anti-freedom, I'm quite certain she'd disagree. But you know better, don't you? You know what's good for her. Why? Because you're a man? Because you're a Christian? Because you're George Bush and you know what's best for everyone?

Even if it is oppressive, it's up to HER to stand up to her oppressors. It's not up to you to force YOUR idea of freedom on everyone. If she's happy in her religion and her headgear, it's really none of your business.

reply to post by nimsu1987


Jeez.. As a 1st Responder-EMT in heavily Muslim Dearborn Mi, I respond, treat and transport many Muslims male and female and other nationalities too...and I hold no predjudice when I do.

That is not the point. Accurate identification is. Thats all.

And if I visit Arabia...my wife cant wear her skirt short, nor can we kiss. Because THEY will not allow it. A difference there? Yes...but not here?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Rosha
.

You're beyond reasoning with poet..go back and read my comments prior to this one..answer some of those.....it remains that the likely hood of you being taken out in a terrorist explosion is near to zero yet you ignore that to justify hatred and bigotry. You don't get it yet do you... 9/11 was designed specifically to create people like you..people who will ignore the facts and support any racist and fear ridden agenda the power elite tell you to. did you think they'd come knock on your door and ask you nicely to support it? No..THIS is how they work..getting you afraid and keeping you that way. The bombers that day..were all Arabic men..no veils...zip nadda....your argument for threat about veiled women is weak and flawed and only feeds a false sense of superiority. You're false sense of security generating meme only undermines you and supports the agenda of the real perpetrators of 9/11 and supports the agenda of the real generators of terrorism in the world.

Want to fear???
See the odds for yourself:

Link: blogs.riverfronttimes.com...

and :

www.squidoo.com...

Go read on the real 'risks' to your life and leave mothers alone. To live is to risk...and hiding behind risk or potential threat to further what is essentially a nazist agenda - "difference is danger" - is simply shortsighted and ego-maniacal.


As for why I must assume you think those things are 'ok'...well..I don't see you here or out there demanding gun control..rescuing young girls from predators... standing up to your governments corruption..or lifting the 'veil' on those issues with the same level of bigotry and hate for those crimes as you've shown for a simply case of a mother wearing clothes to a mall...so one can only reasonably assume those 'threats' are acceptable to you.

To prove how silly the argument even is and how thinly veiled the bigotry of this thread has become....this guy (pictured in the vid) would be be able to hide a bomb in his afro quite easily. So should we outlaw the wearing of afro's?

www.wimp.com...

No we shouldn't?

Why not?

What if he was Muslim? Would that be different ?

If the capacity for the concealment of bombs is really the issue not religious hatred and bigotry, then your answer should be most certainly YES! BAN THE FRO!!!!!!!!!!



Rosha

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by nimsu1987

 

Jeez.. As a 1st Responder-EMT in heavily Muslim Dearborn Mi, I respond, treat and transport many Muslims male and female and other nationalities too...and I hold no predjudice when I do.

That is not the point. Accurate identification is. Thats all.

And if I visit Arabia...my wife cant wear her skirt short, nor can we kiss. Because THEY will not allow it. A difference there? Yes...but not here?

Because you have a constitution that protects her right to wear it.
Because you have laws that protect her from abuse harassment and hate crime.
Because you are supposed to be a nation of more loving and wiser people than they are, more grown up and less fundamentalist, less fear driven or power mongering as a people than those who would place those kind of restrictions on their own people...more willing to action your principles instead of fearing difference.
Because you state around the world as justification for murder by warfare that you are the 'land of the free' - and now say no..only free to do xyz..and only then when we let you.

Because free means free..to choose..to dress..to think and be as you wish..not 'my idea of freedom imposed on you whether you like it or not'.

If you want to do the latter...and ignore the former..I suggest you stop using that term to describe the USA..as it most certainly isn't freedom your offering people..only enslavement to what you think is best for them..which is..a lie..as you cant know..aren't god..and so long as they do not commit a crime against law..you don't have the right to.

The ideas and maturity behind the constitution as was written, was to stop this kind of all out bashing of differences.."all men created equal" remember? Equal in right to self determine is included in that.
Or have we forgotten that too?
Perhaps this thread just symbolizes that the US no longer has the maturity it once did and replaces that essential maturity for religious belief in propaganda.


Odd isn't it...that a foreigner like me needs to defend your constitution to you ..but I know those laws, that constitution is what brave men die for and fight to preserve...why piss on that effort..ignore that sacrifice? I really don't get how you can cry or conversely support the fact soldiers are fighting and dying ' for your freedom'..yet undermine so flippantly what they are dying and fighting for.



hmm

Ro

Originally posted by InfoKartel
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

It's embarrassing and disgusting that I live in a country that supposedly has freedom of expression and freedom of religion and yet, this woman is publicly stripped of hers and all the offender has to do is go to a diversity course.

You really believe that the woman in question is FREE? That she CHOSE her religion? I thought that was what freedom of religion meant, to be free to choose ones own religion. Do you know Islam? I would bet you don't because Islam is intrinsically opposed to freedom! In fact, they pride themselves in being anti-freedom! But you're going to brush this aside as "Islamophobia", ignoring the ever increasing evidence there is that Islam is not "just a religion".

The guard did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Therefore, he didn't do good. In fact, he did very bad because this will rile up some more ignorant idiots to speak in defense of something that is oppressive and anti-freedom in nature, because those ignorant idiots want to show how in favor of "freedom" they are. Ever forgetting that the freedom they enjoy had to be fought and killed for and that the women in countries where such garments are mandatory are STILL fighting for their freedom. But hey, lets not let that get in the way of our political correctness now!

edit on 26-5-2012 by InfoKartel because: (no reason given)

Its hardly "politically correct" to uphold this woman's right to choice and to choose her own path in life. In fact it is just that idea that underpins the entire US constitution.
To say she is a mere victim is to assume way beyond your purview. You simply cannot know every choice this woman has made and even if she chooses not to exercise choice, that is a choice too..and not one you have a right to slander.

I was working with one of the first groups to get cameras into Afghanistan when women were being buried up to their necks and having their heads run over by jeeps by *men* for simply daring to speak. I know exactly what is going on and where oppression is occurring..which is why I speak up about it WHEREVER it occurs.

In this case..it is occurring in your own homeland...and is just as vile and just as insidious and dangerous as it is in many other places.

More importantly.... THIS is how it started THERE.

FEAR...was manipulated...used..to further agendas of those who wanted power over others...and they used flawed politics, abandonment of reason, social peer pressure, 'security' concerns and 'control' of threat as their justifications too.

Want to not end up 'just like them' then don't do as they did...be braver...be American...uphold your Constitution even if you don't want to and especially when its 'inconvenient' to you.


" US" versus " THEM" is the heart of all propaganda and elite driven agendas..its what renders many powerless and makes more victims...so its no small thing then that the constitution of the United States starts with "WE"...and WE includes everyone..of every kind..all of us...even those we don't particularly 'like'...in fact..especially those.





Rosha.

If she want to go into a private business and that private business requires identification, the normal form of identification is showing your face.
If a police officer ask for identification while operating a vehicle on a public highway no difference. Nobody cares if she wants to cover her mug, but do not be surprised if you asked to uncover your face when security is a concern. Freedom of religion does not give anyone the right to violate the rights of others.

personal problems, take it up with the chaplin

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Yes. I have no reason to believe anything other than that.

Well that's your issue then isn't it? Ignorance of a culture.

She's an American Adult.

Oh really now?

I am not so arrogant that I think I know better than her what her religion should be or which religion she should choose.

I don't know better either, I just know that Islam is not good for women.

She's an adult woman born in the USA and she is free to do as she pleases.

That's the point I'm arguing. You're arguing in favor of religion. Not her choice. Why? Ignorance of a certain culture.

I didn't choose my childhood religion either. I was indoctrinated into it. But as a free adult in this country, I chose differently.

Ah but you are projecting now! Your religion wasn't Islam. Have you read what they think about and do to women? What they are reduced to? How much fear they have of leaving the religion, even though they might want to be as free as you are? No you don't. That's called ignorance.

Christianity is intrinsically opposed to freedom, too. All religion is. And yet, people still choose to follow them.

Secularism says differently. But go ahead, compare Islam and secular Christianity all you want. It's like comparing a wolf to a sheep.

That's your opinion. If the woman were asked if her headgear or religion are oppressive and anti-freedom, I'm quite certain she'd disagree.

To you, a random person she does not know, of course she would deny it.

But you know better, don't you?

From experience, I know a little better.

You know what's good for her. Why? Because you're a man?

That's what this woman's father and male family members would argue, you know, since it's that way in the culture.

Because you're a Christian? Because you're George Bush and you know what's best for everyone?

Christian??? And where the hell did George Bush come from?

Even if it is oppressive, it's up to HER to stand up to her oppressors. It's not up to you to force YOUR idea of freedom on everyone. If she's happy in her religion and her headgear, it's really none of your business.

Sure. Lets all shut up to the inequalities that happen around us. I mean, if a kid is being slapped then it's nobody's business to intervene, it's up to the kid to stand up right? If a human rights activist is captured, there's no point in us saying something about it, it's up to the activist to stand up to the jailors, correct? If women are systematically indoctrinated by being scared to death that if they ever leave their religion, that someone close to them will hurt them - how dare anyone speak against this, since it's the woman's duty to stand up for herself - ow and if she does and then goes missing or is killed, it's absolutely not the culture, but it was just a isolated case.

Please, don't make me laugh and think a little before you reply.

reply to post by Rosha

Its hardly "politically correct" to uphold this woman's right to choice and to choose her own path in life.

Then you don't know the culture.

For the rest, what a bunch of emotionally driven garbage. I think you're arguing against yourself here. Plus, I never once saw you summing up religion+culture as to why it's so messed up in Afghanistan.

" US" versus " THEM" is the heart of all propaganda and elite driven agendas..its what renders many powerless and makes more victims...

"elite driven agendas"...please go jump off a cliff will you? Or stop using such abstract arguments, whichever one is easier. What renders many powerless is a strict culture. An oppressive regime.

so its no small thing then that the constitution of the United States starts with "WE"...and WE includes everyone..of every kind..all of us...even those we don't particularly 'like'...in fact..especially those.

Yet none of you champions of the constitution research the culture you so vigorously try to defend (out of ignorance). If a woman is living in a free country - and she wears the burqa - there is something SERIOUSLY wrong. Either psychologically ( through abuse ), or something is seriously wrong and she's being forced to wear it through peer pressure or under threat. Maybe one in a million of those women do it voluntarily, but then again, those women know very little of Islamic culture and they are bound to run off someday.

If I am required to remove my motorcycle helmet when entnering a store or for a passport or drivers license photo - why aren't these women?

Crazy sht and if you disagree you're as mental as the politically correct nut bars allowing it.

Originally posted by InfoKartel

This is so much BS...more paternal patronizing crap. I *do* know the culture..very well..where as you seem to know and are regurgitating only what the media and military tells you to.

I know dozens of very happy Muslim women in good relationships that wear it for personal and religious reasons. They are in no way 'victims' and have made a conscious choice to do so.
More, it is a human right and a choice you have NO power over whatsoever.
Deal with it.

That you can even begin to think you have the RIGHT to assume for every woman and to know their hearts and minds, shows your misguided misogyny at work. We women can think for ourselves you know..we do have brains you know. We can even DEFEND OURSELVES from bigotry you know. Its been happening for a long time now..we at least have stepped from the dark ages into the day...you'd better catch up!

The Una-bomber was an atheist who wore creepy hats..do we ban hats and atheists? The Oklahoma bomber was a radical right wing Christian, do we ban Christians and ban them from driving pick up trucks? The Norwegian bomber was a Gnostic Christian, do we ban wearing of a crucifix and all occult symbols too? And anyone wearing a crucifix or not believing in God, well of course they MUST be a ' programmed fool and any women reading the bible and obeying it must submit to her husband so she must also be unable to choose for herself" too and so needs the citizens of the good old USA to 'protect' her and tell her what her spiritual choices ought to be!

Goes both ways!


Where does it end?

You are trying to claim and stand on a moral high ground with no feet. Worse..you're exposing the hypocritical cultural elitism that has your nation at war on several fronts and feared or hated by anyone remotely 'different' to you....which is..well..nearly everyone...as we are all individuals..and all different..something you don't seem to be able to accept.



"" For the rest, what a bunch of emotionally driven garbage. I think you're arguing against yourself here. Plus, I never once saw you summing up religion+culture as to why it's so messed up in Afghanistan. ""

My 'emotional dribble" was the simple and unemotional truth...a truth which obviously hurts to hear.
Good.

As for religion/culture..see this page of Afghanistan in the 1960's right before your good old boys decided to make a run for their vast mineral resources....first with Russia and now your invasion. Hint...the US isn't there protecting women...if it was they wouldn't have armed and trained the men who routinely kill them now.
These pictures ..of a MUSLIM Afghanistan prior to Russian and US invasion..show just how much impact US foreign policy has had in the region...YOU taught them to be as they are now. Take some responsibility for your own countries actions before you point the finger at others.

Link : www.youtube.com...


If I thought for a second that you are in any way representative of the sum of US citizens view on the rights of people in the rest of the world, I'd just shut up and throw in the towel...but luckily I know many Americans who do not think in this small minded fearful way..and for their sake..I wont go on a tirade about US abuses of women, the many rapes of Iraqi and Vietnamese girls in both wars..or the rampant and psychopathic crimes of many the military, the murder and abuses of children..not to mention the utter disrespect for women's right to choose and the misogyny permeating from your culture and your own government...no I wont go there at all... and will simply leave you to you ignorance.

Your right about one thing..I have been defending American culture to many, in utter ignorance to the disgraceful bullsh*t you spew forth and expect others to believe...and that will change as of now.

After all..you will reap what you sow..and condemn only yourself by it. We don't have to follow you, you are not our leader. Find your own heart and mind first..then maybe we can talk.



"elite driven agendas"...please go jump off a cliff will you? Or stop using such abstract arguments, whichever one is easier. What renders many powerless is a strict culture. An oppressive regime.


And what do you think a regime demanding people only wear certain types of clothes is???

OPPRESSIVE!


" please go jump off a cliff will you? "

No.

You are not worth dying for.

And as that is possibly the worst thing Ive ever written on this site...I am ashamed of myself..but I do honestly feel this way, today.

I wouldn't p*ss on you if you were on fire...not only because it would be a waste..but you might accuse me of being a leftist or a Nazi and dressed in the wrong clothes and decide unilaterally to imprison or kill me.

Can't have that...



Rosha.

Originally posted by Garfee
If I am required to remove my motorcycle helmet when entnering a store or for a passport or drivers license photo - why aren't these women?

Crazy sht and if you disagree you're as mental as the politically correct nut bars allowing it.

Here is Australia we have laws that mean everyone wearing any kind of covering entering a bank or police station or getting a license must show their faces...ditto police roadside stops. Any person..any head covering.

Maybe if you approached the issues for what they really are instead of a paranoid knee jerk reaction you'd have these laws too and be able to similarly apply a law to all..not just one group.


Rosha

reply to post by Rosha


I do live in Australia and in case you don't recall the recent incident in which a Sydney police officer was dragged over the coals by some muslim cow who called him racist for asking her to show her face when pulled over while driving - I can find you some references.

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by Rosha

 

I do live in Australia and in case you don't recall the recent incident in which a Sydney police officer was dragged over the coals by some muslim cow who called him racist for asking her to show her face when pulled over while driving - I can find you some references.

AND THE LAW WAS CHANGED as a result, to protect both women in Burqa from any potential tirading husbands ( its the law she cant be blamed for revealing herself)..and to protect police and legal/courts from abuse by sneaky women in Burqas or men using them for crime!

Stop feeding paranoia.

Or not..your choice.


Ro

reply to post by Rosha

This is so much BS...more paternal patronizing crap. I *do* know the culture..very well..where as you seem to know and are regurgitating only what the media and military tells you to.

HAHAHAHA

I know dozens of very happy Muslim women in good relationships that wear it for personal and religious reasons. They are in no way 'victims' and have made a conscious choice to do so. It si a right and a choice you have NO power over whatsoever. Deal with it.

And you live in a secular society am I correct? Now imagine if you lived in a place WITH AN ISLAMIC CULTURE.

Tadaaa, your argument just lost all its merit.

That you can even begin to think you have the RIGHT to assume for every woman and to know their hearts and minds, shows your misguided misogyny at work.

I don't assume, I see.

We women can think for ourselves you know..we do have brains you know. We can even DEFEND OURSELVES from bigotry you know. Its been happening for a long time now..you'd better catch up.

Go live in an Islamic culture where there is Islamic law and Islamic courts. Then come back and defend the people who are practicing the same culture elsewhere, but in a way that is "hidden" for those who don't know. You can defend yourself? Well, it seems you would ONLY defend yourself and not others, since you are so adamant in saying how Muslim women have it all fine and good while your experience with the actual culture doesn't even add up to an iota.

"You better catch up"...don't make me laugh.

The Una-bomber was an atheist who wore creepy hats..do we ban hats and atheists? The Oklahoma bomber as a radical right wing Christian..do we ban Christians and ban them from driving pick up trucks? The Norwegian bomber was a Gnostic Christian...do we ban wearing of a crucifix and occult symbols too? And anyone wearing a crucifix or not believing in God of course they MUST be a ' programmed fool unable to choose for themselves" and so needs the citizens of the good old USA to 'protect' them and tell them what their choices ought to be!
Really?
Where does it end?

You're just lost. Enjoy living in an upside down world.

You are trying to claim and stand on a moral high ground with no feet. Worse..you're exposing the cultural elitism that has your nation at war on several fronts and hated by anyone remotely 'different' to you....which is..well..nearly everyone...as we are all individuals..and all different..something you don't seem to be able to accept.

So now it's "my" nation? You ignorant folk are so predictable.

My 'emotional dribble" was the simple and unemotional truth...a truth which obviously hurts to hear. Good.

It doesn't hurt. Another "emotional dribble" argument. You don't know me, don't know what I've seen or been through, to claim such an emotionally charged nonsensical argument hurts. I know this Islamic culture better than you could ever dream to, seeing as I'm actually from a place where they have the culture and the law and all that other good stuff you're in favor of. I've got a grandmother that has lived the culture for over 70 years and she only speaks candidly to me because I at least vocalize my opinion against the oppression of women under Islamic culture.

She's still a Muslim and prays 5 times a day, she's been to Mecca a number of times, the whole deal...but get this...she's only honest to me about her faith and the reason why she "chose" Islam, even though I'm not in favor of the culture. Why? Because if she was a little girl being forced into religion(all over again), I would be the person shouting about how it's not right. You would be the person shouting for me to shut up, it's "her own choice".

If you are in any way representative of the sum of US citizens view on the rights of people in the rest of the world, alI can say is no wonder..and goodbye.

Bla bla bla nonsense. The fact that you believe I'm from the US shows just how ignorant and assumptive you are.

Luckily I know many Americans who do not think in this small minded fearful way..and for their sake..I wont go on a tirade about US abuses of women and will simply leave you to you ignorance.After all..you will reap what you sow..and condemn only yourself by it.

Not an American. But dig yourself in some deeper will ya? Lets see, US abuse of women...HOW IN THE HELL you could compare that to the SYSTEMATIC abuses women often find themselves enduring in Islamic cultures is a mystery to me. It's quite offensive too. But as long as you can be the feminist speaking in favor of women wearing batman suits in the scorching sun...right? I mean, it's their own right to be oppressed by their men, correct?

Originally posted by Rosha

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by Rosha

 

I do live in Australia and in case you don't recall the recent incident in which a Sydney police officer was dragged over the coals by some muslim cow who called him racist for asking her to show her face when pulled over while driving - I can find you some references.

AND THE LAW WAS CHANGED as a result, to protect both women in Burqa from any potential tirading husbands ( its the law she cant be blamed for revealing herself)..and to protect police and legal/courts from abuse by sneaky women in Burqas or men using them for crime!

Stop feeding paranoia.

Or not..your choice.


Ro

Yep, I'm "feeding paranoia" by stating historical fact of recent times.

Originally posted by InfoKartel

You need help, and I am not qualified to provide it. Unlike you I didn't speak for all Muslim women..you did..I constantly refer to the women *I meet* and speak with. The woman in the OP is an American BORN woman, who chooses to follow Islam, and lives in the US...she HAS choices and rights under law even if she never once acts upon them and you are NO ONE to take them away or to force her to make ones that 'please' you.

Long term and systemic abuse of women doesn't only occur in Islamic nations and you are blinded to reality if you think it does. I had a life of hell right here in this so called secular culture..one only empowering my own choices and having my choices empowered, lead me out of. You want to talk about 'hidden' abuse? You have no idea and are just another man speaking for 'all women' which is something 'all women' can do without imo.

It remains..all you have is YOUR opinion..backed up by your hatred of Islam born of a bad experience with it...an opinion which obviously isn't shared by all Muslims let alone the opinion of at least two women on this planet..so you cant say you speak for all women let alone all Muslim women. I am sorry for your mothers experience, but you are not god..and as such..can yell and stomp all you like..it wont change the fact we do have choice, and this women was exercising hers just fine...for HER.

You keep saying you want to promote women's rights and stand against radical Islam..yet look how quickly in demanding she change her clothes to suit you, you took her rights to wear what she wants to, and to choose her path in life away. Can you not see that you are dis-empowering her as much as any Islamic man intent to abuse her might be? You leave her only with the choice between two oppressors...that's not promoting her inherent freedom of choice.

How is she or anyone to believe you have anything remotely better than the life she has consciously chosen when you come at her this way? It seems to me that you'd fit right into radical Islamic culture...where men do everything..including deciding what is right and thinking for women.....you cant even see the hypocrisy of your own words...there is simply no point trying to have a reasoned conversation with you...regardless of what nation you live in.

Just like to Catholic or christian or Jewish or Polynesian or Animist cultures...there are many shapes and types of belief within the one cultural group..not everyone within those groups believes and thinks exactly the same way even if they commit to a single view of god or philosophical perspective.

Your view would have me unilaterally condemn an entire 3rd of the population of world..and the millions of individual mind's spirits living and working within that third 99% of whom I don't even know....and regardless of whether they are fundamentalist or not..are faithful believers or just part of a group for comfort or convenience..regardless of their individual journeys or what God himself may have willed or have planned for them. You tempt me to judge them as you do...something I may not do...as I know I am not God and will never have enough information or the perfect picture or perspective to do that and so would just condemn myself.

You want company in what will end up being a very lonely pit..and I am not falling into that pit for you.

I cant do that. its not in me as a human being to collectively hate or punish an entire group for the actions of a few or even , a collective within the group. That, is a 'wrong'..to me.

If its not a wrong to you..then live as you have chosen..just please don't continue to infer my way of living and acting is invalid simply because it isn't consistent with yours..that would be to be ...well..a radical fundamentalist tyrant.



Ro

Originally posted by Garfee

Yep, I'm "feeding paranoia" by stating historical fact of recent times.

Half a fact is as good as a lie Garfee...the conclusion to that saga was a respectful to all parties law change..the problem was simply solved.....that's sort of an important thing to note..if your not seeking to spew hate and actually are interested in denying ignorance not just scoring points.


Ro

reply to post by Rosha

You need help, and I am not qualified to provide it.

Really? Is that how you wave away one of the few actually intellectuals being candid with you in your ENTIRE life?

I constantly refer to the women *I meet* and speak with.

So you spoke with this woman to know that she chose to follow the religion?

who chooses to follow Islam

Because if not, then why would you contradict yourself?

I had a life of hell right here in this so called secular culture..one only empowering my own choices and having my choices empowered, lead me out of.

Well I'm sorry there weren't any folks like me around to stop that hell from occurring, but if you lived in an Islamic culture and someone did try to prevent that hell from occurring...what would happen?

You want to talk about 'hidden' abuse? You have no idea and are just another man speaking for 'all women' which is something 'all women' can do without imo.

I probably know more about this than you do. What I can't figure out is, why would you speak in defense of these hidden abuses then?

It remains..all you have is YOUR opinion..backed up by your hatred of Islam born of a bad experience with it...

That's what you'd think right? Up until I started looking at psychology on a deeper level, I argued like you do(only with actual substance). It's not my "bad experience" that shapes my opinion, in fact, it's daily life. The way I see it happen. I live in a secular country and there are plenty of Muslim families in the same street. The women stay home. The men work. Not very secular right? Now, you would argue that they have a choice to stay home, and I agree. But, is it their choice? And what happens to those women who go in against the wishes of their Islamic culture and decide to become strong independent women? They are shunned out of family circles. This is not my "bad experience", this is a bad experience for those women.

an opinion which obviously isn't shared by all Muslims let alone the opinion of at least two women on this planet..

That's what you would guess right? Because I bet a lot of women agree with me here.

so you cant say you speak for all women let alone all Muslim women.

I never did. On the flip side, I never said they ALL experienced that, just most of them. While you did what exactly?

I am sorry for your mothers experience, but you are not god..........it wont change the fact we do have choice, and this women was exercising hers just fine...for HER.

My grandmother*, and you don't need to be sorry for it, since you can't even begin to understand it. Besides the fact that this woman's choice, which you do not know to be a choice, is limited to certain laws. This goes for everyone and if you cannot understand this then I don't know what the hell you can understand.

You keep saying you want to promote women's rights and stand against radical Islam.........., and to choose her path in life away.

They can wear hijab all they want, I don't care. But those batman suits?! You think that's healthy? You think that's testament to the woman's freedom?! GO EDUCATE YOURSELF before you utter such ignorance twice.

Can you not see that you are dis-empowering her as much as any Islamic man intent to abuse her might be? You leave her only with the choice between two oppressors...

Er...two oppressors? Are you okay in the head? I'm arguing in favor of FREEDOM. In favor of allowing her to choose whatever she wants regardless of her backward culture...not letting her choose regarding her backward culture. If you cannot understand things as mirror neurons and psychological effects religions have on the brain, then you can't even discuss freedom with me, while you pretend to be the one in favor of freedom.

How is she or anyone to believe you have anything remotely better than the life she has consciously chosen when you come at her this way?

How many people do you know that honestly enjoy walking in 30 degrees centigrade, in a black batman suit?

It seems to me that you'd fit right into radical Islamic culture...

That's offensive but seeing as you don't even understand what you are saying, it's okay.

Okay, lets see if you understand it this way:

When this woman gets a daughter. Do you think that daughter will be free to choose as she wants? You do not think the father will whisper those words in her ear that magically turn her into a Muslim, where after she is expected to follow all kinds of rules, such as wearing a batman suit? With reprisals for not doing so?

you cant even see the hypocrisy of your own words...

There is no experience in your words, so how can you claim mine are filled with hypocrisy? Mysteries...

Originally posted by Rosha

Originally posted by Garfee

Yep, I'm "feeding paranoia" by stating historical fact of recent times.

Half a fact is as good as a lie Garfee...the conclusion to that saga was a respectful to all parties law change..the problem was simply solved.....that's sort of an important thing to note..if your not seeking to spew hate and actually are interested in denying ignorance not just scoring points.


Ro

Please show me where I spewed hate in this thread. And I have told neither "half a fact" or lie.

If I inadvertently scored points you may wish to ask yourself why.