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Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

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posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Rosha
 


I have the same contempt for the KKK and the NAZIs as I have for men who force their women to wear burqas, and from all I have read on the subject, most women are forced to wear these traveling prisons, married as young girls to their much older cousins, on and on again.

You talk about freedom, while defending religious practices that treat women like slaves, trying to hide behind freedom of religion. You are the one being the hypocrite.

We shouldn't allow the burqa for the same reason we don't allow public nudity, because it is obscene.




posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by draco49

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think the odds are too high that anyone who forces their women to dress in a burqa teaches their sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress in a burqa. I don't want them around, and I think I have good reason.

To me, the burqa is a sign of extremism, and disrespect for my culture, and a good sign that the families that dress in this way have nothing but contempt for me.

I think every girl killed for adopting Western ways is a sacrificial killing to keep all the other women in line.

I have thought the issue through, and I honesty think the burqa should be banned for the same reason public nudity should not be allowed. In fact, I think public nudity is not nearly as bad as the burqa.

What justifiable reason should any woman wear a burqa in a Western nation?

I don't see it at all as an expression of religious freedom, not a religious belief that we should respect or allow.



It's apparent that you are an intelligent person by your writing style. And I respect your right to your opinion, as I hope you would respect mine. I think we both agree that forcing someone to wear something they do not want is morally wrong, as it removes that person's right to choose how they live and present themselves.

Where we part ways is in your belief that you or anyone else has the right to tell someone else what is or is not a valid expression of faith. Religion and faith knows no physical boundaries, so your argument that women shouldn't wear burqas in a Western nation is irrelevant. Neither you nor I have the power to dictate the lifestyle or religious practices of another. Period. That line of thinking is in direct conflict with the Constitution, and the ideals this nation was founded on. Regardless of how you feel about it personally, you don't have the power to override the Constitution. And if you are truly a patriotic American, that should never be your desire.


Where we part ways is in your belief that you or anyone else has the right to tell someone else what is or is not a valid expression of ownership. Ownership and property knows physical boundaries, so your argument that property owners shouldn't refuse service to people covering their face in a Western nation is irrelevant. Neither you nor I have the power to dictate the property owners practices by another. Period. That line of thinking is in direct conflict with the Constitution, and the ideals this nation was founded on. Regardless of how you feel about it personally, you don't have the power to override the Constitution. And if you are truly a patriotic American, that should never be your desire.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by Rosha
 


When I look into the eyes of the women I see regularly wearing a burqa, I see a frightened young woman, or an older woman who has her spirit broken.

Not all, but mostly.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:41 PM
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I'll post a few pics again. Tell me who is really oppressed.
















posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by draco49
 



Neither you nor I have the power to dictate the lifestyle or religious practices of another.


Sorry, but you are wrong, and there are a great many laws on the books in the U.S. that dictate certain aspects of lifestyle and religious practices.

You have the right to practice your religion, but you do not have the right to force your religion on others. There are all kinds of decency laws that restrict peoples life styles.

Banning the burqa is one that we should adopt, for all the reasons explained.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by Rosha
Hmmmm...so public KKK cross burnings and Nazi group rallies are ' ok'...but a woman exercising her right to choose her style of dress..isn't? That's some spectacular specious reasoning again...and so much for supposed freedom.

Your personal dislikes should have no bearing on this woman's right to choose which is protected by law....as her right to choose her garment ought to have no bearing on your right to wear jeans and discard common sense.

By this view, it's not a free and open society your supporting...and I do have to wonder what form of society you are.

One people one law...except for...hijab wearers.

ok.

As you say..its your country...do what you like..just know its also your hypocrisy, your self deceit, your paradox to deal with as well.

I'll just respect her.


I absolutely boggles my mind that people would present such outlandish and irrational thoughts about a woman's right to wear a burqa. Logically speaking, it makes no sense. That indicates that the thoughts and opinions are completely emotional in nature, and therefore lack any semblance of coherency. I wonder how someone who claims to be an American or a patriot of this country can make such absurd comments as have been made in this thread regarding a person's right to wear a traditional religious garment. Especially given that it's basically just a long black dress with a head covering a facial veil. If somebody can present a rational argument for why such a garment should be legally banned, I would love to hear it. I don't hear anyone complaining about the Hasidic and Orthodox Jews wearing black wool pants and overcoats in the middle of the summer. And I don't hear anyone complaining about sikhs wearing turbans.

There are plenty of things in this world to be legitimately outraged by, such as the Chinese tradition of binding the feet of girls from a young age, or the Ubangi custom of using stone plates to distort the lower lip and jaw, or the more popular practice amongst some African tribes of elongating the necks using metal rings and elongating the skulls using a binding method. How about the African and Haitian tradition of circumcising girls as young as 8 years old? Surely, these are exponentially more damaging and barbaric practices than a woman wearing a long dress with a headdress. See, I think the problem is that, while those are all terrible practices, none of the people who engage in those activities are Muslims. The root of this emotional lunacy is an indoctrinated fear and hatred of Islam. But of course none of these patriotic Americans will admit that, because living in this state of cognitive dissonance is easier than confronting their own personal fears and prejudices. I guess it's just easier for them to look in the mirror and tell themselves the big lie, "I like who I am".



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Rosha
 


I have the same contempt for the KKK and the NAZIs as I have for men who force their women to wear burqas, and from all I have read on the subject, most women are forced to wear these traveling prisons, married as young girls to their much older cousins, on and on again.

You talk about freedom, while defending religious practices that treat women like slaves, trying to hide behind freedom of religion. You are the one being the hypocrite.

We shouldn't allow the burqa for the same reason we don't allow public nudity, because it is obscene.





Obscene : TO YOU

That's an opinion or personal perspective...not a 'fact'.

The FACT here is she has a right to wear it and to not be molested while doing so and both your constitution AND the human rights declaration itself guarantees her rights to do just that. Your personal preferences are your business...not law.

Its not obscene to the women making the choice to wear it to do so. If she lives in the US, then she has chosen to wear it...as the CHOICE exists within the US to wear or not to wear regardless of religious status.

Except in instances of criminal behavior..I am the kind of person who holds to ' I don't like what you wear or do..but I will fight and defend your right to say or do it'. Just as I don't like your thinly veiled bigotry..but I defend your right to have your view too.

Its enough for me to know that I am not 'god' therefore able to judge another life choices or impose my will on them..to know Ive overcome myself and my own fear enough to simply accept peoples differences and see them for who they are rather than classify them into collective groups and punish them because I don't like their views.

Right now we're having a talk on China vs US as regards who is going to screw us first and I get angered by 'Chinese nationals' who are taking our university places and buying degrees so I am well aware the same collective punishment prejudices you have exist in me at some level too...I'm just human too..but where it is possible..I do revisit those views..and put the onus on ME to grow up and get over it..not expect others to change for me. It's called..maturity.


Ro



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
Sorry, but you are wrong, and there are a great many laws on the books in the U.S. that dictate certain aspects of lifestyle and religious practices.

You have the right to practice your religion, but you do not have the right to force your religion on others. There are all kinds of decency laws that restrict peoples life styles.

Banning the burqa is one that we should adopt, for all the reasons explained.


1) Please provide references to specific American laws that support your argument.

2) Please explain how an American woman choosing to wear a burqa equates to forcing a religion on you.

3) Please explain what you perceive to be indecent about a long black dress with head covering.

4) Please explain how public nudity and exposure is a more acceptable concept than a woman choosing to wear a burqa.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by draco49
 


ahhh...a breath of sanity and reason just wafted past........thank you




Ro



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


Yeah, the burqa fad is taking off all over the world, as free women everywhere embrace this fabulous form of dress. NOT.


The burqa and the niqab shroud the full body, covering every part of a woman except her feet. The niqab includes a slit for the eyes, whereas the burqa has mesh netting. Malalai Joya, an Afghan MP and a devout Muslim, hates wearing it. "It's not only oppressive," she says, "but it's more difficult than you might think. You have no peripheral vision. And it's hot and suffocating under there."

When visiting Australia recently, Joya didn't pack her burqa. She is one of the many millions of Muslim women around the world who choose not to wear it



Read more: www.smh.com.au...

Who do, who do you think you are fooling?


edit on 25-5-2012 by poet1b because: up the sarcasm.

edit on 25-5-2012 by poet1b because: typo



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by draco49
 


Laws against public nudity, gay marriage, drinking alcohol, drugs, profanity, sodomy, on and on and on.

By dressing obscenely.

It is extremely oppressive of women's rights, and if someone can not show their face, they shouldn't be out in public unless the reason they were hiding their face is for some sort of ailment.

Nudity is about freedom, especially from religious oppression, while the only purpose of the burqa is the suppression of women's rights, and the treatment of a woman as property.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread843793/pg20#pid14195247]post by When visiting Australia recently, Joya didn't pack her burqa. She is one of the many millions of Muslim women around the world who choose not to wear it


The insanity of your argument is revealed in the quote YOU just used:

She is one of the many millions of Muslim women around the world who choose not to wear it.

It doesn't matter how many people like them or don't like them. The fact remains that they are a part of the Muslim tradition, wearing one doesn't effect anyone but the person who chooses to wear it, and absent of malice, the protects the individual's right to wear what they want and express their faith.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


I'm not trying to fool anyone. Your quote says "one of millions.... who choose not to wear it."

It is a CHOICE!

I'll admit I don't know a lot about their customs, but I did become good friends with an Iranian girl who did CHOOSE to wear it, even though she was here in the States, and she wasn't required to wear it.

I also had a good time with a Hindu girl that had an arranged marriage for after college, and was doing everything in her power to screw it up. She did not want to end up like her sister, so she was making a slut out of herself so the guy would not want to go thru with the marriage.

I also had lots of good times with lots of American girls whose self-worth was entirely dependent upon their looks, and the attention they could get from men. These girls came from good families, they were going to a major university, and they were bright girls, but they were spending the majority of their time begging for attention.

I'm sorry, but I just can't feel that sorry for the Muslim girls.

On another note, the US was largely Puritan at one point, and the outfits were awfully similar to the Muslim outfits, but we evolved. If the Muslim culture wants to evolve, then fine, but we can't force it upon them.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by Rosha
 


I think that our public universities should be required to admit U.S. applicants before any immigrants, but immigrants are not teaching their sons that my daughter is a whore because she does not cover her face, or where a headscarf.

How do you not see the difference.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Rosha
 


When I look into the eyes of the women I see regularly wearing a burqa, I see a frightened young woman, or an older woman who has her spirit broken.

Not all, but mostly.



What you see..like in all life..stems from how YOU are.

Given your view..you will pardon me if I cant take your observations as "fact". Had you said " after discussion with several Islamic veil wearing women I came to a conclusion that xyz " maybe it would have more credence with me..but no..an observation borne through the filter of fear..is inherently flawed - to my scientific brain..not just my emotional heart.


I have seen myself too, many times, fear in the eyes of Burqa wearing women..and when let go my judgment and fear and simply ask them why and what they are fearing..it is fear of being harassed, beaten, raped or killed for wearing a Burqa.


Ro



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Rosha
 


I think that our public universities should be required to admit U.S. applicants before any immigrants,



I agree with this.
The idea is that we can Americanize these students and build in-roads into their cultures, but instead they just use us. The girl I've been talking about hated America pretty solidly. I asked her why she would come here if she hated it, and she said, "I'm Iranian, we buy our rice from China, our gas from Russia, and our educations from the West. Just because I hate it, doesn't mean I don't know how to exploit it."

Again, hard to feel sorry for these Muslim girls.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by draco49
 


Laws against public nudity, gay marriage, drinking alcohol, drugs, profanity, sodomy, on and on and on.

By dressing obscenely.

It is extremely oppressive of women's rights, and if someone can not show their face, they shouldn't be out in public unless the reason they were hiding their face is for some sort of ailment.

Nudity is about freedom, especially from religious oppression, while the only purpose of the burqa is the suppression of women's rights, and the treatment of a woman as property.


You didn't address a single item I asked you about. Instead, you spit out the same tired talking points and made use of illogical circular reasoning. Since this seems to be hard for you, let's try again:

1) Please provide references to specific American laws that support your argument that there is precedent for excluding the wearing of a burqa.

2) Please explain how an American woman choosing to wear a burqa equates to forcing a religion on you.

3) Please explain what you perceive to be indecent about a long black dress with head covering.

4) Please explain how public nudity and exposure is a more acceptable concept than a woman choosing to wear a burqa.

If you cannot provide clear, direct, concise, logical, and relevant responses to the SPECIFIC 4 items, don't bother responding. It's ok if you can't make it make sense. And it's ok if you need time to gather your thoughts into something logical and coherent. I'm honestly just trying to understand the root of your argument and am not being condescending.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


There are plenty of hot women out there who like to wear revealing clothes, and revel in the power it brings them over men.

However, they should be restricted in how little clothes they should wear.

And just as they should be restricted in how little they wear, women should also be restricted in how much they are allowed to wear.

That is balance, that is sanity.

You are either kidding yourself, living in denial, have yourself completely fooled, or don't care, if you think most women wearing those horrible outfits want to wear them.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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If I were to wear a KKK hood because of my religion would that be ok?



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by draco49
 


Your questions


1) Please provide references to specific American laws that support your argument.

2) Please explain how an American woman choosing to wear a burqa equates to forcing a religion on you.

3) Please explain what you perceive to be indecent about a long black dress with head covering.

4) Please explain how public nudity and exposure is a more acceptable concept than a woman choosing to wear a burqa.


My answers

Laws against public nudity, gay marriage, drinking alcohol, drugs, profanity, sodomy, on and on and on.

By dressing obscenely.

It is extremely oppressive of women's rights, and if someone can not show their face, they shouldn't be out in public unless the reason they were hiding their face is for some sort of ailment.

Nudity is about freedom, especially from religious oppression, while the only purpose of the burqa is the suppression of women's rights, and the treatment of a woman as property.

I answered your questions completely and directly. You have been proven wrong.



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