Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by Rosha

 

Im sorry you somehow got that from 1 post. Ive posted many others here above as I work with Muslim women and did so Memorial Day. I exhibited my support for our freedom by being one of the Parade Marshalls in honor of our troops and their service to our country and its freedoms.

And what did you do on Memorial Day to support the memory of those who gave their lives? Think about it.

Thanks...and...Peace to you

edit on 06-10-2010 by mysterioustranger because: (no reason given)

I sat here writing and offsite writing papers in support of what they are out there supposedly fighting and dying for...what my grandfather and brother died for...actual freedom from tyranny.

We don't have memorial day here..we have Anzac day..which was last month..but I don't need a 'day' to remember whats been lost..or the work that needs to be done.

Your post unless I read it entirely wrong ( which it seems I did).. suggested to me that the principles of freedom are flexible, upholding freedom, actual not relative, as an absolute, is only dependent on external pressures that seek to subvert it..and my reply was ' no..it isn't'.

If you meant instead that you are being attacked solely For having those freedoms..I don't agree.
Foreign policy decisions out do 'lifestyle and freedoms' every time when it comes to why the US is hated so much or under attack.

In a recent expose done by a film crew, and when asked what they knew of 9/11 - the premise for war in the middle east- 76% of Afghan's questioned had NO idea what it even was...never even knew it happened.




Rosha

Originally posted by Rosha

Originally posted by redneck13
What a crock, now is time for a total ban on the burka now. Open face society we have nothing to hide, do we?

those people will be required to obey

edit on 29-5-2012 by redneck13 because: m

I know might be very hard to hear redneck...but people..other human beings... have the inherent right to choose what they will wear and when and how they will wear it. You are not God you are not ' the boss of them'. They don't need YOUR permission to make their choices. You have no rights 'over' them and if YOU have a problem with them then its YOUR problem..so go deal with it..don't expect the world to pander to you or to change itself for you or to appease your over-weaned need for blanket security.

Mature..grow up..get over it.live well 'anyway'..or not..it really is your choice. Either way..people will continue to wear what they like..as they should be able to given they are adult human beings and equal under law...and there's dick squat you can do about it.
You'd have the burqa/niqab equivalent of a yellow star on her lapel if you and poet had your way and that is sickening to me after what the world has already been taught about the end result of such views....but the amount of f*ck that will be given by me today about your views is so small..its hardly worthy the effort to type this...I don't have to live with them...and I am not bound by them.

Thankfully..while law exists..neither does this woman.


Rosha

Rosha, please forgive my ignorance if you have explained your position in another post.

Are you suggesting the women who accused a police officer of some terrible things should not be made to show her face in certain situations?

Again, if I've missed a post somewhere on this site, you'll forgive me for it as I wouldn't know even the first place to look.

When you check the situation throughout the world
It becomes obvious, they must obey

I don’t know what the big deal is
When you unpack concepts and ideas
It is obvious to see the USA is sharia compliant

Originally posted by Garfee
Rosha, please forgive my ignorance if you have explained your position in another post.

Are you suggesting the women who accused a police officer of some terrible things should not be made to show her face in certain situations?

Again, if I've missed a post somewhere on this site, you'll forgive me for it as I wouldn't know even the first place to look.

Not at all Garfee

Like me with my bike helmet..when I go in banks I expect to remove it. Not only to be polite to the person I am speaking to ( a personal choice ), rather I know the reality of security needs in that environment (common sense). Ditto when entering other areas that have gained the legal authority to expect compliance with facial recognition needs ( respect for common law), such as jails, police stations, roadside so my ID can be verified ( now ), some hospitals, other secure facilities ( biolabs etc) and 24/hr petrol stations etc..places that DO have the legal right under law owing to *actual* risk factors that have been determined by reliable independent threat assessors not personal bias. I have no problem with this. Opinion isn't deriving that decision..necessity is.

As I've said from the beginning..common law means one law for everyone and equality under the law for everyone and if I am required to remove my helmet under common law..I don't see why anyone else has a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about the same.
It might be more touchy or emotional given the niqab is a religious symbol or cultural tradition, but this is how our country has to work..under a common law...as we are 247 countries in one here..and it would be a nightmare to pander to or to include every religious or cultural nuance in the law 'equally'. You a have a right to practice whatever religion etc..but there are caveats for wider social interaction. Here..religious law does not trump civil law...which is why doctors found offering FGM in Sydney relatively recently were charged and sent to jail..removed from the AMA and the right to practice medicine here. It was only a shame IMO, that their children were not protected as veraciously under our child protection laws, but this is an issue for the family court and a judge - not me to decide.

Everyone here can run for parliament or lobby parliament if they choose so every culture and religion has the opportunity to affect and impact the laws here..but no one culture ( any longer) has the right to dictate it for all cultures that live here. One area near Brisbane Manly beach was 'bought up' by a wave of Arabic immigrants. they took over their local council..as is their right as ward citizens and as a council wanted to ban bikini's on "their" beach - but they were stopped by common law..and federal laws..so however empowered an individual council may be..even it is beholden to common law.

There is a rightful and reasonable expectation of reciprocity with comes with living in any society, especially a multicultural one like ours.....and while our system is FAR from perfect.. for me that expectation and my obligation to it is important for all our kids..and for stability...and to me..it only ends if a personal opinion is given power to dictate 'threat' or to impose itself above my conscience, or when a personal prejudice or hidden social agenda is permitted to dictate law.

In this case, given the woman was not in a bank or a sign posted area where legal authority had been granted that required her face be shown *by law*, the woman was PROTECTED by the US form of "common law"...the constitution. The guard was in breech of his scope and authority given to him by law. As a guard he only operates under law...and so is accountable to it in the exercise of his authority.

In the case of the girl here that tried to get around common law and stump police..she ended up empowering common law by her deception..as her actions necessitated the public and police be protected from people who DO want to do bad things wearing niqab. She exposed a loophole in that law, that was then filled. New cultures, new loopholes, the law does need time to catch up. As there was no existing law that specifically related to niqab..in most peoples assessment, she got away with it..but she didn't get the compo she demanded..though, again, under law she was entitled to it..not fair..but the law is there 'in case' we are all wrong too not just when we are right. So now, the issue of niqab and potential 'offenders' is placed under common law...in the same way as helmet laws are under common law, yet not every rides a motorcycle...and I don't think anyone else will get away with what she did..so easily in future.



Ro

reply to post by Rosha


Hello Rosha. Im in agreement with all your points. Let me say this:

In America, we are a country of freedom and laws. One day...its going to be those very freedoms that will trip us up when we arent looking.

We of course allow this...we allow that...we accept this...we deny that. We have rights to allow this thing and that thing and have religious freedoms to believe...or not to believe..in any God, thing or no God.
And this all is where it get rocky.

Im afraid it'll come to the day that those very rights to wear whatever and do whatever and own whatever and use whatever from everyone in this country...visiting this country, studying in this country etc....like the failure to properly identify by concealment of say the face (whats next? a religious or moral denial of taking one's fingerprints?)......may come back on us and destoy us, our freedoms and the right to worship however you want.

Simply put...regarding this thread...I think we are afraid one day there will be 50-1000 people dressed in full concealment attire at some place or event...that we accpt as women initially...all of a sudden throw off their garb to find either heavily armed men...or women with bombs strapped to their chests.

Is that predjudiced? It is. Is it a basic denial of individual rights? It is. Is it a discrimination against a specific nationality or beleif system? It is.

But in this day and age....until we have something better, is it absolutely necessary to continue to demand proper identification somehow and someway for the safety of other?

It is.

Thanks Rosha. Still friends?
Peace.......

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by Rosha

 

Hello Rosha. Im in agreement with all your points. Let me say this:

In America, we are a country of freedom and laws. One day...its going to be those very freedoms that will trip us up when we arent looking.

We of course allow this...we allow that...we accept this...we deny that. We have rights to allow this thing and that thing and have religious freedoms to believe...or not to believe..in any God, thing or no God.
And this all is where it get rocky.

Im afraid it'll come to the day that those very rights to wear whatever and do whatever and own whatever and use whatever from everyone in this country...visiting this country, studying in this country etc....like the failure to properly identify by concealment of say the face (whats next? a religious or moral denial of taking one's fingerprints?)......may come back on us and destoy us, our freedoms and the right to worship however you want.

Simply put...regarding this thread...I think we are afraid one day there will be 50-1000 people dressed in full concealment attire at some place or event...that we accpt as women initially...all of a sudden throw off their garb to find either heavily armed men...or women with bombs strapped to their chests.

Is that predjudiced? It is. Is it a basic denial of individual rights? It is. Is it a discrimination against a specific nationality or beleif system? It is.

But in this day and age....until we have something better, is it absolutely necessary to continue to demand proper identification somehow and someway for the safety of other?

It is.

Thanks Rosha. Still friends?

Peace.......

Everything Ive written here hasn't been about judging. I hope that isn't what came across.
I do know terror. I know fear too...its biological, psychological and spiritual processes. I 'get it'. I know what it does to us humans subtly and at its extreme...I know its strength and eroding capacity..the doubt it leaves as debris..the suspicion it brings to every level of being. I wouldn't and wont judge anyone for their reactions to it. My own were 'unpretty' to say the least. While I cant condone actions that cause harm..I can comprehend, and so..forgive, or at lest veil in sufficient context to retain reason and humanity when it comes to working with others coping with it.

It is with that experience of terror and fear and their effect and the affect of overcoming both though, that my understanding of what fear ISN'T came to be born and empowered inside me.

What I have learned via those experiences and through having been blessed with time for reflection on them, is that Fear is a function, a tool. Not a platform. Fear is a force. Not a power.

As human beings we are capable of choice. Choice, is a power. Force..cannot dissolve power unaided.
This is why Love, a force, so easily disappears when Will, a power, is born inside people.

I know from my own experiences with terror, that even in the midst of the worst fear driven psychosis or biological terror state..choice exists. Fear, as much as we fear it might or wish it would, cannot remove our power of choice unless we ourselves allow it to...unless we give it permission and aid to usurp our will.

Very very few things in this world have the ability to usurp the power of choice and will...and these things, the processes needed to achieve this, must be enacted upon a being, at such extreme youth and be compounded by constant reinforcement if they are to last for any real length of time.

So much force is required to usurp these powers, that those who would engage in this kind of oppression, have to have the stamina to out run their own fear and its force, in order to keep pace. I know this..only because they tried just that with me..to usurp my will..but they are not God...and so, being human, they failed...and my will and my choice..returned to their rightful places..if only eventually.

To embrace your view, to me, to support it as an excuse for action taken against freedom, would be to place fear and terror, above God, place it above that innate power of capacity to choose I at least, hold was given by God to me, but is at least, sans that view, a gift and curse of being a human being. It would to me, be akin to to empowering oppression. And I do choose very carefully these days, what I empower.

To me, to allow fear this victory, even once, is at best a waste, an opportunity lost even if the reward of facing it is only the overcoming of it...nothing else. At worse..it is an appeasement a compromise between slavery and freedom that is, like denial, a short term coping mechanism. At its catastrophic depth, to give into fear, is nothing less than a defeat of soul...a choice to relinquish my human rights and my obligations. A choice I am held to account for...if only within myself..regardless of external pressures.

So if fear dictates my freedom, then choice is already in peril and in peril, freedom can quickly become a paperweight or a dispensable attribute, something to aspire to, a premise rather than a reality. It quickly has no worth beyond a cushion of comfort or an ideology to hide behind, one that can ever be fully realized, like honor, justice, faith have become today for many.

Yet I have realized freedom, I have also lost it many times. I know it exists..'for real'..'for certain' as an achievable state of being and being greedy, wanting more of its sensation, its empowering presence in my life, I would rather let go of fear when it arrives and continue to work on those issues that impede me from maintaining my inherent freedom, than to give victory to fear and abandon that journey as worthless or too hard and so, to allow myself to become too flexible, too permissive, ineffective...to give up that good fight, for what would be a temporary illusion of safety or an all too tempting regression into primality.

Free, to me, is like being peaceful, isn't something you can fight for..you have to 'be it'...which is why I keep loosing it as I am prone to self enslavement

When I eventually do rest..when I do achieve that state of being free as a constant - if indeed it is even meant to be one- I want that rest and that freedom to be earned...to be solid, authentic and honest. So I will say thank you, but no thanks, to any other offers to relinquish that obligation to myself, and will continue to ask myself
"what am I fearing" and so start the process of change if it is needed there first, where I can be effective...rather than pointing a finger out there and in fear of possibility, of what 'might' happen, try to change what I cant and don't have the power to - the choices and actions others.

As I already know I am not God...this decision for me on where to start being free, is simple today and in that comprehension of what freedom is - and isn't - I know I don't need to fear others, or even their actions against my person, as I know already, that only I can empower the force and powers within me, that can remove freedom from me, only my will, or Gods can take it away or uphold it.

In this way freedom, to me, is not about what other do or might do...it is about how and who I am..when they do it.

What I found I needed to identify as a priority, if I really wished to preserve and protect my freedoms and to be free, was my own force of fear and power of choice. As that force of fear and the power to overcome it - choice- doesn't exist within the boundaries of the visible face of another, they exist in anonymity, faceless, within me.


ymmv of course.....and yes of course we are friends....no question there..I don't need to agree with you to be a friend to or with you, in fact I'd rather not agree..much more interesting that way...


Rosha

I remember a few instances when I was deployed to Iraq and was granted R&R liberties, certain places we went, namely off base shopping centers in Dubai or Kuwait, we female troops were advised to take a black shawl to drape around our heads. I found it humiliating, honestly. If wearing this is how this woman was brought up and she felt what I felt in reverse, then I empathize with her right. However, I believe these requiem of Islam upon women are extremely sexist and degrading not only to women, but men as well. Are they suggesting that the image of a woman's face or body in normal attire is so stimulating that these men cannot control themselves from violating them? I don't want to sound daft here, but seriously, that was one of the suckier things about being "over there"...and back on the FOB, working with the Hajji contractors, not being taken seriously as a woman until I literally yelled at them and made certain gestures. Sigh...

It's disgusting that any woman should have to completely cover their entire body just because their men can't handle looking at a woman. It's seems to me that Islamic men have some sort of inferiority complex when it comes to women. I wish that all their women would revolt on them, take off the body suit and defy them. In this country women are not feared by their men.

The reason she was made to take it off was because it was disturbing the public peace.

Originally posted by HoppedUp
I remember a few instances when I was deployed to Iraq and was granted R&R liberties, certain places we went, namely off base shopping centers in Dubai or Kuwait, we female troops were advised to take a black shawl to drape around our heads. I found it humiliating, honestly. If wearing this is how this woman was brought up and she felt what I felt in reverse, then I empathize with her right. However, I believe these requiem of Islam upon women are extremely sexist and degrading not only to women, but men as well. Are they suggesting that the image of a woman's face or body in normal attire is so stimulating that these men cannot control themselves from violating them? I don't want to sound daft here, but seriously, that was one of the suckier things about being "over there"...and back on the FOB, working with the Hajji contractors, not being taken seriously as a woman until I literally yelled at them and made certain gestures. Sigh...

Good points, I hope others get what your saying.

reply to post by Fromabove


The people defending her right to wear this garb because she is in "the USA and etc" should be aware that if western women were in an Islamic nation, women are expected to comply with their rules. However, our homegrown Muslims as well as imports seem to believe they can flout American law and regulations when it pleases under the guise of their religious freedom. I know for a fact, that if showed up in a souk in Riyadh wearing jeans and a Hello Kitty tank top I would be dealt with as if I had robbed the Queen. However, Muslims get to make their own rules for dress code here even if it's laid out quite flat that attire covering the head and/or face is not permitted. We have such dress codes at local malls, and security guards will ask young kids wearing hoodies to remove them, but Muslim women in head dress and regalia generally don't get asked. I think most of the guards just don't want to deal with the drama.

Originally posted by HoppedUp
I remember a few instances when I was deployed to Iraq and was granted R&R liberties, certain places we went, namely off base shopping centers in Dubai or Kuwait, we female troops were advised to take a black shawl to drape around our heads. I found it humiliating, honestly. If wearing this is how this woman was brought up and she felt what I felt in reverse, then I empathize with her right. However, I believe these requiem of Islam upon women are extremely sexist and degrading not only to women, but men as well. Are they suggesting that the image of a woman's face or body in normal attire is so stimulating that these men cannot control themselves from violating them? I don't want to sound daft here, but seriously, that was one of the suckier things about being "over there"...and back on the FOB, working with the Hajji contractors, not being taken seriously as a woman until I literally yelled at them and made certain gestures. Sigh...

I hear what your saying..we have the same troubles here with ignorant men and people (Muslim and non Muslim), not to mention fearful and archaic attitudes here too..but I try to keep in mind, that what they wear has been considered by them to be 'normal attire' for ages, literally. In many places in the ME, for nearly 3000 years a veil was simply sensible attire. 6000yrs in one place. Normal for us..and normal for others being entirely subjective experiences. Odd that in Afghanistan there was never a mass population push from country to city, so the veil and niqab never took off there..until the Taliban came that is...and at least there, while hiding behind a mask of religion, it does seem to be a sociological response to perceived threat..to fear....perhaps this women wears it for the same reasons..I don't know...she may just be exercising a choice that s comfortable to her.

If there is one..can you please post the 'rule' that says a woman cant wear a veil in the US..or for that matter a man cant wear a turban or any other form of cultural identification? Would love to see it if it exists.
As has been spoken of before in this thread, this woman is American born and raised, she is a citizen and not an immigrant and so, has full rights as you do, under the constitution.

Not that it is in any way relevant..but I often wonder when I hear arguments like this one..if the Native Americans felt the same way when oddly dressed folks arrived wearing puritan headdress and clothes unfit for the conditions..I know many aboriginal people here have entreated stories of how their ancestors felt when the British arrived here, it would be interesting to see the cultural comparisons...the indigenous population here thought we were idiots and bet on how long it would take us to die of heat exhaustion


cheers..and ty for placing service above self as you have...I hope your home and happy.



Ro

reply to post by Rosha


The rules governing head coverings and face masks/full face veils are usually posted outside certain public venues like (larger) shopping centers and of course, landmark buildings frequented by tourists and visitors and banks have signs that request people not wear masks or carry wallet chains and such (things that cane be used as weapons or to conceal weapons). Private companies like malls, have every right to create and enforce a dress code for patrons. But out and about, no, there is no federal or even municipal laws that I am aware of that states these women (or men) can't wear their religious dress. It's amazing that we allow most anything here, but over there, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. It's 2012, it's high time our fellow humans in the ME and elsewhere certain beliefs have spread to get a dose of tolerance. That's just my stinky little opinion of course...

And no one can make me trust them. I don't even trust my family members that have converted to Islam. I will never trust them. It's hard for me to have faith in a fellow human that willfully follows backwardsness, though I respect their right to it. And no one will ever hear me say what I have just said here IRL unless they ask my thoughts.

Originally posted by HoppedUp
reply to post by Rosha

 

The rules governing head coverings and face masks/full face veils are usually posted outside certain public venues like (larger) shopping centers and of course, landmark buildings frequented by tourists and visitors and banks have signs that request people not wear masks or carry wallet chains and such (things that cane be used as weapons or to conceal weapons). Private companies like malls, have every right to create and enforce a dress code for patrons. But out and about, no, there is no federal or even municipal laws that I am aware of that states these women (or men) can't wear their religious dress. It's amazing that we allow most anything here, but over there, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. It's 2012, it's high time our fellow humans in the ME and elsewhere certain beliefs have spread to get a dose of tolerance. That's just my stinky little opinion of course...

And no one can make me trust them. I don't even trust my family members that have converted to Islam. I will never trust them. It's hard for me to have faith in a fellow human that willfully follows backwardsness, though I respect their right to it. And no one will ever hear me say what I have just said here IRL unless they ask my thoughts.

Please show me evidence of these signs and the legal authorization of these rules where they specifically regard the wearing of niqab...and if you can, the sign on the mall this woman entered that said this 'rule' was in force that day.

I'm a suspicious person generally..I don't trust anyone..often, I am just wondering how it is though, that people are so accepting of this breech of her Constitutional right to freedom, yet are rioting in the streets right now, for other apparent abuses of it. To my mind..you either support and defend it..or you don't...and if you don't..*for all people*..then why are you taking military oaths that say you do or that you will defend and protect it?

Where in that oath does it say ' I will support and defend the constitution of the United States as it relates to everyone BUT niqab wearing Muslim women "

?

I've yet to hear that spoken.

I have yet to hear a a single legal or ethical justification for the criminalization of this woman...actually...for the pre- criminalization of this woman. Its the worst kind of profiling and abuse of profiling there is imo.

This is the tangled web I am concerned most about..the hypocrisy you can be called on..this kind of self service and fear or mistrust based exclusionism..is more a threat to the US than any other thing..even war.

The founding fathers as I comprehend their intent, didn't form the constitution based on personalities or personal likes and dislikes..but instead, based it on *inclusive* moral principles.

Are those principles no longer ..valid..wanted..important..meaningful? If they aren't..then I don't see how any soldier can justify and so conscience their deployment under the current oath...and without that oath having a basis in fact or real meaning, and with no direct and imminent threat to your nation, it reduces the title soldier to "hired mercenary" and exposes even more the words of bringing 'freedom and democracy' et al..that all current theaters the US is involved in are using as justification...as lies.

This woman's right to the same freedoms you enjoy, as a fellow US citizen, her innate human right to freedom itself, is either important ..or it's not...upholding her rights and all rights of all people to self chosen paths of happiness and freedom, is either what this whole sh*tfight has all been about..or its not.

There is very little wiggle room there..


imo, ymmv etc...


Ro

reply to post by Rosha


Based on what I have read, I do not think the woman is a criminal. However, if the security officer advised her to remove the scarf she should have asked to see the dress code, and like I said, I know we have a dress code at local malls around here (I am in TX) and especially the larger ones like in Dallas and Houston, they don't even allow guys to wear "Du-Rags" on their heads and those don't even cover the face. From what I've seen, these "rules" are pretty lax, you'd have to really be drawing some serious attention to yourself to be pegged by a mall cop. I don't have some axe to grind re Islam or any religion. I have studied the Qu'ran and a few volumes of hadiths (traditions of the prophet), and it's fascinating evening reading with a bit of tea, but it gets shelved with the rest of the fiction in my house. No offense meant.

Why I don't trust them is indeed unfair, and believe me, it's an issue I am working with on myself daily. I know it stems from being deployed and the various things I went through over there. I realize at a fundamental level, people are people, no matter what they have filled their heads and hearts with...and no matter what they wear or if they are purple or green. I dislike the way women are treated in Islam. I believe all humans have the right to make their own choices and we are all our own masters. Therefore, my personal beliefs clash with those of Islam, that women are property to be treated as such. I fail to understand how a woman could choose to follow such a belief system. There are many others I feel similarly about, but I don't want to go too far off the topic. Just wanted to assure you that I am not some raging butt wipe out to pick on people different from me. I'm kind to everyone until they give me a valid reason to react otherwise.

reply to post by Rosha


Well said. A very well thought and said reply! Thanks.

I think this thread for most responders has gone everywhich way but up the middle.

In a place with freedom(s)....how do we....as a whole society....find ways to respect the individual cultures and traditions of a people....and still guarantee the safety of themselves and everyone?

Theoretically...in the future...some other issue with dress even more hindering to identification could come along....and even if it completely covered and failed at even discerning man, woman or animal...we would have to respect it and NOT clearly identify the person or persons....based on their rights.

This is why we we dont allow masks in banks.....

Is there an easy answer to this? I dont know...but we all...you and me and everyone...have to find one.

Thanks again for the great reply!

reply to post by HoppedUp


ty for the reply

"I fail to understand how a woman could choose to follow such a belief system. "

I understand..I often 'don't get it' too...so much 'flattery' of women going on in words, even in moderate Islam, words that don't bear fruit with facts on the ground. What religion or institution doesn't have the same duplicity problem..really?

It also doesn't mean I am prepared to do as they do, and 'flatter' the law or constitution and ignore its importance when I am uncomfortable with the challenges to my own morality that upholding it might mean to me. I accept that challenge and I'm grateful or the opportunity to cement or reevaluate my own moral platforms.

It/ the existence of visible hypocrisy also doesn't mean that I accept that this woman's choices are 1: any of my business to be dictating 2: Something she ought to be deprived from making 3: not protected under law.

Separating the rights of the person from the emotion of the issue and the issue itself from my disgust or fear or my lack of comprehension of it, that's what it boils down to for me - rights protected by law - and that's why I am grateful the law exists as it does, as it exists to protect me from the lesser selves of others yes..but also protects me from myself at my worst or most vulnerable.

I personally hold that I cant expect, reasonably, to be protected by law, if I exist or operate outside of it. Yet even so, in the US and most countries even criminals who do operate outside of the law, ARE STILL protected by laws that govern and protect all sides from acting on our own base desires.
I know the places where law of this kind has been abused beyond recognition or is simply non existent...and I don't want my country to end up just like them.

This is the 'war at home' all those old songs sung about...a war we cant forget continues on every day, one being waged against reason, against wisdom and right action, those forces being ones of actual chaos and darkness, internal and external, individual and collective, that DO want us to be "free" - 'just like them'.

Everything has two sides..usually more than that..but its been helpful to me to know what freedom is to and for me..so I know what I am fighting for if nothing else...and so I don't get lost in that war and end up just another victim of it.

Part of my learning and self defining process about what freedom is to me, was the study of the US constitution..it would be a real loss to me at least..if it were to be so easily let go or undermined..by fear.


best to you n yours..

Ro