The sin of Angels

Originally posted by GmoS719
Well, one can't be %100 sure, I go by what I've learned from reading the Bible.
First John 1:8 ,"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Exactly, and how did that sin get in us?

Originally posted by GmoS719
When you say bloodshed are you referring to Jesus dying on the cross?
Before Jesus, one would have to make sacrifices and payments to absolve them from their sin.

I was speaking of all blood sacrifices. How does shedding blood to absolve sins make any sense? Sounds like a practice that was held by superstitious people.

Originally posted by GmoS719
I can only refer to Genesis 3 - "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
So i'm guessing it was in the middle somewhere?

Does the location matter?

Originally posted by GmoS719
I can't tell you why God put the tree there. Any answer I gave you would be false.
They were created with free will, just not the knowlege of good and evil.

According to what the bible says, I would agree with you. So without that knowledge, why were they given such a harsh punishment?

Originally posted by GmoS719
I guess you could say that humans are equally responisible for causing the pain and suffering. Atleast indirectly.
Galatians 6:8 says "For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."

Fair enough.

Originally posted by GmoS719
Well, if you are looking for an answer based on facts or evidence then you wont find one lol.

I understand that, yet christians supposedly get help from the creator himself. They also have a personal relationship with him. This means that they actually know him. Seems like they'd be able to get these answers from the source, though many times they don't agree with things amongst themselves.

Originally posted by GmoS719
The bible doesn't say wether or not angels are capable of sin or not.
For all we know angels might have not been bound to serving God but could choose to serve him or not (rebel).
It's all speculation.

Isn't rebellion against god a sin? Isn't having pride of yourself, rather than in god, a sin? Isn't disobeying god a sin?

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
I guess that depends on what your definition of human is. I have a sneaking suspicion that humans and the fallen angels are a lot more connected than you might imagine. In fact I have a sneaking suspicion that Adam was the first Homosapian which had his body inhabited by an angel. He was afterall "taken" by the elohim and placed in the garden.

Fallen angels fall for a reason. Jesus was one and Buddha was one. All around us hidden in plain sight and sometimes even openly. Sometimes the become very corrupted because the cannot handle the loss of the connection. Some call them seeds.

Chop Suey - System of a Down


System of A Down- Toxicity

reply to post by Hydroman

Exactly, and how did that sin get in us?

Can you explain what you are saying?

I was speaking of all blood sacrifices. How does shedding blood to absolve sins make any sense? Sounds like a practice that was held by superstitious people.

I can't tell you HOW it absolved sin, I can only tell you that according to the Bible it did absolve sin.
From what I read the blood-shed was forshadowing of the blood that Jesus shed as a sacrifice.

Does the location matter?

I guess it mattered to Adam & Eve, How could they avoid it if they didn't know where it was? lol

According to what the bible says, I would agree with you. So without that knowledge, why were they given such a harsh punishment?

That question still puzzles me to this day...Why the simple act of eating a fruit would bring such great rath from God.
I would say that it's symbolic. God gave man a paradise, but man chose to disobey God.
Disobedience deservers punishment.

reply to post by Hydroman

I understand that, yet christians supposedly get help from the creator himself. They also have a personal relationship with him. This means that they actually know him. Seems like they'd be able to get these answers from the source, though many times they don't agree with things amongst themselves.

Knowing God doesn't mean you understand God.

Isn't rebellion against god a sin? Isn't having pride of yourself, rather than in god, a sin? Isn't disobeying god a sin?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say angels are bound to sin, it does say man is though.
That's why I said, All of our opinions on the subect of angels being able to sin is just speculation.

For once, a civil discussion about Christianity.

Originally posted by GmoS719
Can you explain what you are saying?

You quoted a verse in 1 John 1:18 that says we all have sin. Why is that? Why do we all have sin? Why can't we NOT have sin?

Originally posted by GmoS719
I can't tell you HOW it absolved sin, I can only tell you that according to the Bible it did absolve sin.
From what I read the blood-shed was forshadowing of the blood that Jesus shed as a sacrifice.

Which still doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by GmoS719
I guess it mattered to Adam & Eve, How could they avoid it if they didn't know where it was? lol

I was just asking why you brought up the location of it....

Originally posted by GmoS719
That question still puzzles me to this day...Why the simple act of eating a fruit would bring such great rath from God.
I would say that it's symbolic. God gave man a paradise, but man chose to disobey God.
Disobedience deservers punishment.

Don't forget, they didn't have knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit. They were innocent.

Originally posted by GmoS719
Knowing God doesn't mean you understand God.

If I know someone and they tell me something that I don't understand, all I have to do is ask them to explain what they mean. Why can't Christians do that as well?

Originally posted by GmoS719
Nowhere in the Bible does it say angels are bound to sin, it does say man is though.
That's why I said, All of our opinions on the subect of angels being able to sin is just speculation.

If they aren't bound to sin, why are they going to be punished?

Originally posted by GmoS719
For once, a civil discussion about Christianity.

Not if I can help it. Just kidding.

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Ya...a man took a bit of an apple....and everything went wrong....how ridiculous it that!

Also....I don't believe any Angels did sin....that concept is ridiculous too.

What amazes me is that people actually believe this stuff.

Your knowledge of biblical events seems a bit...lacking and unrefined.

The entire book is written by prophets using prophetic language which is basically code words. Some of it is literal, some of it is rhetoric and some of it is metaphors and allegories. Which is why unless you're truly one of the House of Israel, you will have no clue what the true message is.

reply to post by GmoS719


I am not bashing anyone's beliefs...I was being sarcastic....stating my opinion. As for getting my fact's straight...no one is perfect....even you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You are right...my biblical knowledge is limited...I do have a lot to learn....but I do know this....God does love and care about me...even though...I may be ignorant at times.

Who were the Nephilim? Don't Christians tell us that they were fallen angels? I'm pretty sure them having sex with Earth girls and educating the children of Adam about magic and architecture and such, were considered sinful abominations in the Book of Enoch.

Originally posted by windword
Who were the Nephilim? Don't Christians tell us that they were fallen angels? I'm pretty sure them having sex with Earth girls and educating the children of Adam about magic and architecture and such, were considered sinful abominations in the Book of Enoch.

I think the idea is that the fallen angels were the parents of the nephilim, by somehow breeding with earth girls and producing offspring.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The entire book is written by prophets using prophetic language which is basically code words. Some of it is literal, some of it is rhetoric and some of it is metaphors and allegories. Which is why unless you're truly one of the House of Israel, you will have no clue what the true message is.

Are you truly of the House of Israel? If so, does that mean that when other christians disagree with your intepretations that they are NOT truly of the House of Israel?

Well, heaven is Gods domain, its where he resides. Its his presence that makes it perfect. As soon as satan rebelled, along with the rest of his followers, they got the boot, and were banished from the presence of God. Its that simple really. You cant make the presence of God imperfect. Now, I am a firm believer in the fact that man was not meant to die, child birth pains, etc. Were brought on by the fall, because Adam sinned. God wont be in the presence of sin. You also asked earlier, why did God even put the tree there in the first place. Well, God pretty much created humanity to have someone love him by choice, for a relationship(in my humble opinion). Note, by choice. There had to be an alternative. Hence, the tree. Hence, satan. Hope i answered well!

Originally posted by isaac7777
Well, heaven is Gods domain, its where he resides. Its his presence that makes it perfect.

God also walked the Garden and communed with Adam and Eve, why didn't his presence there make it perfect too?

Originally posted by isaac7777
As soon as satan rebelled, along with the rest of his followers, they got the boot, and were banished from the presence of God. Its that simple really. You cant make the presence of God imperfect.

Satan meets with god and talks with him. How is this possible? Look at the story of Job.

Originally posted by isaac7777
Now, I am a firm believer in the fact that man was not meant to die, child birth pains, etc. Were brought on by the fall, because Adam sinned. God wont be in the presence of sin. You also asked earlier, why did God even put the tree there in the first place. Well, God pretty much created humanity to have someone love him by choice, for a relationship(in my humble opinion). Note, by choice. There had to be an alternative. Hence, the tree. Hence, satan. Hope i answered well!

Do you also believe that some animals which were herbivores became carnivores? That their digestive systems changed to deal with meat after the fall? Did wasps, spiders, scorpions, etc. develop venom and delivery systems after the fall? Were sharks and piranha plant eaters before the fall? Did the fall cause all these changes in animals, fish, and insects?

Next, why couldn't the humans love him without this choice of eating the fruit? What if they decided not to love him? Was this all-powerful deity really upset and hurt that his creations made the wrong choice, even though he already knew they would before he created them? Why did he punish the world so severely when these humans had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit?

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You are right...my biblical knowledge is limited...I do have a lot to learn....but I do know this....God does love and care about me...even though...I may be ignorant at times.

edit on 23-5-2012 by caladonea because: correction

You will understand, keep searching. Things didn't start opening up for me until i surrendered. I can help you figure out somethings you may have questions on if u want to U2U me what you got.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Ya...a man took a bit of an apple....and everything went wrong....how ridiculous it that!

Also....I don't believe any Angels did sin....that concept is ridiculous too.

What amazes me is that people actually believe this stuff.

This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

Yeah well Eve may have taken a bite of that apple, but Adam bit it, liked it, said biotch get in that kitchen and make me apple pie, apple strudel, apple sauce, blah blah blah..
Its ALL Adams fault.

My take on angels and humans falling. Im not an Xtian, but I did a little homework. The angels that fell.. demons they call em... were prideful and jealous. They got cast down and out and have NO option of forgiveness by God.. Adam and Eve fall.. get chucked out of the garden.. but STILL are able to be forgiven by god. They have a safety line or option to be "saved" like we are if you believe that sort of thing. IMO... Lucifer and his legion are pretty jealous and pissed at US since we have not only free will and break commandments and do everything God says not to, but God likes us more and we can still go to heaven if we ask for forgiveness and receive his grace.

Voila. Its still all Adams fault.

Originally posted by Advantage
Yeah well Eve may have taken a bite of that apple, but Adam bit it, liked it, said biotch get in that kitchen and make me apple pie, apple strudel, apple sauce, blah blah blah..
Its ALL Adams fault.

My take on angels and humans falling. Im not an Xtian, but I did a little homework. The angels that fell.. demons they call em... were prideful and jealous. They got cast down and out and have NO option of forgiveness by God.. Adam and Eve fall.. get chucked out of the garden.. but STILL are able to be forgiven by god. They have a safety line or option to be "saved" like we are if you believe that sort of thing. IMO... Lucifer and his legion are pretty jealous and pissed at US since we have not only free will and break commandments and do everything God says not to, but God likes us more and we can still go to heaven if we ask for forgiveness and receive his grace.

Voila. Its still all Adams fault.

I've often wondered why this god did not offer any plan of redemption for the angels. Why isn't there any forgiveness, mercy, or grace for them as well?