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The sin of Angels

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posted on May, 23 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Advantage
Yeah well Eve may have taken a bite of that apple, but Adam bit it, liked it, said biotch get in that kitchen and make me apple pie, apple strudel, apple sauce, blah blah blah..
Its ALL Adams fault.


My take on angels and humans falling. Im not an Xtian, but I did a little homework. The angels that fell.. demons they call em... were prideful and jealous. They got cast down and out and have NO option of forgiveness by God.. Adam and Eve fall.. get chucked out of the garden.. but STILL are able to be forgiven by god. They have a safety line or option to be "saved" like we are if you believe that sort of thing. IMO... Lucifer and his legion are pretty jealous and pissed at US since we have not only free will and break commandments and do everything God says not to, but God likes us more and we can still go to heaven if we ask for forgiveness and receive his grace.

Voila. Its still all Adams fault.

I've often wondered why this god did not offer any plan of redemption for the angels. Why isn't there any forgiveness, mercy, or grace for them as well?


Dont know. Best as I understand the whole thing they were created as servants of God.. not being he loved. He does what he wants I suppose. The angels surely knew his nature and maybe it was an experiment in loyalty and obedience. I have no idea really.. I am certainly no biblical scholar, I just tried to understand it all. You have to admit.. it is a VERY interesting book and concept. I see few so called xtians following what even I understand to be the "rules" of christianity. Its interesting because of the percentage of our planet's people who are xtians and exactly how they use this text to manipulate for so many strange reasons.




posted on May, 24 2012 @ 03:04 AM
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Angels are first and foremost heavenly beings. Angels know the nature of God which man is unable to gasp. Angels know about the grace, power, and glory of God. Knowing God's nature, Lucifer and his 1/3 chose to rebel from God and vowed to be as great as God. That is why Lucifer and his 1/3 were expelled from heaven and ineligible for redemption. Humankind do not have that incite; this is why Jesus proclaimed on the cross, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do!" This is why we are offered redemption and these fallen heavenly creatures are not.
Eve was obviously tricked by the serpent to eat of the fruit of knowledge. She knew that it was forbidden but was convinced that she was entitled to the knowledge of good and evil. To me, Eve was tempted with knowledge she could not control and in doing so was the first sinner. The agenda (by the serpent) has and always will be to get back at God for expelling him from heaven. Adam, knowing the consequences of eating the fruit did it not to claim knowledge of good and evil. He did it for love. He loved his wife so much; he could not bear to be without her and would suffer death to be with her. Before he ate, Adam was without sin, he took on the sin because he loved his bride. This is just like how Christ took on our sins on the cross for his bride, the body of Christ...everyone who accepts his sacrifice!
I'm no expert by any means. I hope that my OPINON will add to the discussion. Thanks all.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by Siberbat
Angels are first and foremost heavenly beings. Angels know the nature of God which man is unable to gasp.
You just made me gasp.


Originally posted by Siberbat
Angels know about the grace, power, and glory of God. Knowing God's nature, Lucifer and his 1/3 chose to rebel from God and vowed to be as great as God. That is why Lucifer and his 1/3 were expelled from heaven and ineligible for redemption.
Why does that make them ineligible again? Don't you know your god's nature by reading the bible? Don't you know about the grace, power, and glory of god by having a personal relationship with him and reading his word?


Originally posted by Siberbat
Humankind do not have that incite; this is why Jesus proclaimed on the cross, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do!"
Wait, so the bible DOESN'T give you this incite?


Originally posted by Siberbat
This is why we are offered redemption and these fallen heavenly creatures are not.
What does it matter if they had more incite than us? My children have more incite about me than my neighbors' kids. I am much more likely to forgive my kids for things than I am my neighbors' kids.


Originally posted by Siberbat
Eve was obviously tricked by the serpent to eat of the fruit of knowledge. She knew that it was forbidden but was convinced that she was entitled to the knowledge of good and evil. To me, Eve was tempted with knowledge she could not control and in doing so was the first sinner.
And she was innocent, not having the knowledge of good and evil to begin with.


Originally posted by Siberbat
The agenda (by the serpent) has and always will be to get back at God for expelling him from heaven. Adam, knowing the consequences of eating the fruit did it not to claim knowledge of good and evil. He did it for love. He loved his wife so much; he could not bear to be without her and would suffer death to be with her. Before he ate, Adam was without sin, he took on the sin because he loved his bride.
Really? I thought Adam may have eaten the fruit because he saw that nothing happened to Eve and wanted to experience what she had experienced.


Originally posted by Siberbat
This is just like how Christ took on our sins on the cross for his bride, the body of Christ...everyone who accepts his sacrifice!
How does "sacrificing" himself do anything for us? Do you believe that without the shedding of blood, this omnipotent god can't forgive us?


Originally posted by Siberbat
I'm no expert by any means. I hope that my OPINON will add to the discussion. Thanks all.
I appreciate you adding to the discussion.
edit on 24-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 06:30 AM
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Like I mentioned before, I am not an expert on scripture but II'll try my best.



Why does that make them ineligible again? Don't you know your god's nature by reading the bible? Don't you know about the grace, power, and glory of god by having a personal relationship with him and reading his word?

We can understand the nature of God as best as we can through our own human perseptions in studying the bible. What I am saying, angels as heavenly creatures, have a better understanding of God as they been in the presence of God. We can not understand the full extent of God's grace, power and glory until we are out of this exsistance. This does not prevent us from establishing a relationship with God by any means.



What does it matter if they had more incite than us? My children have more incite about me than my neighbors' kids. I am much more likely to forgive my kids for things than I am my neighbors' kids.

All of creation falls under the Law of God to include the angels. Does this make the angels more liable to the Law of God? In my opinion yes, as they have a higher knowledge and understanding of God. The difference is, hunmankind has a redeemer to wipe away our sins if we chose to believe; the fallen angels do not. We are all children of God and are forgiven equally if we chose.



And she was innocent, not having the knowledge of good and evil to begin with.

I agree with you she was innocent prior to her temptaion. Once she accepted the temptation in her heart she sinned. We commit sin in two ways: by our thoughts and by our actions.



How does "sacrificing" himself do anything for us? Do you believe that without the shedding of blood, this omnipotent god can't forgive us?

When we commit sin aginst an infinate God, our sin is then infinate. There are no deeds that man can do to erase those sins. Sin has infinate consequences. It is through faith that we are cleansed. Faith that Jesus came to earth as God in flesh to save us from those sins. If I were to offend you, do I ask your neighbor for forgiveness for the offense? No, I must come to you and ask to forgive me for how I wronged you. This is the same with God. So with infinate sin must be infinate mercy. The cross is God's mechanism to free us and justify us with the only sacrifice that is appropriate...Himself.

I know many christians in the "real world" have difficulty explaining things. Its hard to explain thing which mainly comes with failth (the heart). It takes soul searching and study. I think if I had to wrap this up in a simple statement it would be: find love for people around you, forgive those who wrong you, and accept salvation as a gift from God who loves you.
Note: I'm blind so if I made and spelling errors...sorry. Thank you for getting my brain matter working so early in the morning. lol
edit on 24-5-2012 by Siberbat because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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Hell was created for the fallen angels not mankind. As far as the effect on the earth it says in Gen that all things were good before the fall. Chuck Meisller postulates that Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies that we have today but some other form that was spiritual yet able to inter act with the physical world. After the fall Gen says that the earth would produce thorns and weeds which were not present before the fall. The bible says that all of creation groans for the new heavens and earth were sin will not be there.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by guitarplayer
Hell was created for the fallen angels not mankind.
Do you believe your god is all-knowing, meaning that everything he created and did, he knew exactly what it would be used for? If so, how could he create hell and then say he only created it for the devil and his angeljic buddies? Are the devil and his angels burning there right now? From what I understand they are not. What I also understand, according to christians, is that humans ARE burning there right now. So, it seems that hell was actually created for humans first, and then the devil and his angels will get it later. So, do you see how this god did create it for humans too? There's no way around it, if he is all-knowing.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as the effect on the earth it says in Gen that all things were good before the fall. Chuck Meisller postulates that Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies that we have today but some other form that was spiritual yet able to inter act with the physical world. After the fall Gen says that the earth would produce thorns and weeds which were not present before the fall. The bible says that all of creation groans for the new heavens and earth were sin will not be there.
Did scorpions, spiders, wasps, cobras, jelly fish, etc. not have venom and their delivery methods before the fall? If they didn't, how long did it take for those creatures to evolve those things for their specific purpose? They didn't need those things to attack plants with. Also, when did the venus fly trap come into being? After the fall? How long did it take that type of plant to develop to do its purpose after Adam and Eve sinned? How long did it take the stomachs of carnivores to evolve so that they could no longer digest plants properly?
edit on 24-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by snowspirit
How come if Eve ate the apple(?), it was a sin, yet the angels only were rebellious when they did whatever it was that they did?
It seems people were held to a very high standard, but they didn't know any better at the time
That's pretty much what I'm getting at with this thread. [/quote

Eve ate of the fruit Adam was suppose to of had dominion over the Garden of Eden. Throughout the bible it is stated that the male is to protect and have authority over his mate. Adam not only lied to God about what Eve done but added onto what she said about the fruit and the serpent. Adam did not do his appointed job and that is why they were thrown out of Eden. They tried to hide their nakedness with fig leaves which is symbolic of the work of man’s hand and not the work of God. In Gen Abel gave a burnt offering and Cain gave a grain offering symbolic of the work of man’s hand which God rejected. It would appear that offering to God had been in place prior to Moses delivering the law to the Israelites. If you read Gen 1 it says in the begging God crated the heaven and the earth and the earth was void and without form. Isaiah states that God created the earth and the heaven in perfect totality. Many believe that there is what is called the gap theory of when it says God created the heavens and the earth and then it became void and without form. This is why many believe that this gap is when the angles rebelled and brought chaos to the universe, and God had to start all over again.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


Angels as you call them were created way before man was even thought of. Angels helped design man and all the qualities of Earth. Father gave the presence of good and bad to test man.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by guitarplayer
Hell was created for the fallen angels not mankind.
Do you believe your god is all-knowing, meaning that everything he created and did, he knew exactly what it would be used for? If so, how could he create hell and then say he only created it for the devil and his angeljic buddies? Are the devil and his angels burning there right now? From what I understand they are not. What I also understand, according to christians, is that humans ARE burning there right now. So, it seems that hell was actually created for humans first, and then the devil and his angels will get it later. So, do you see how this god did create it for humans too? There's no way around it, if he is all-knowing.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as the effect on the earth it says in Gen that all things were good before the fall. Chuck Meisller postulates that Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies that we have today but some other form that was spiritual yet able to inter act with the physical world. After the fall Gen says that the earth would produce thorns and weeds which were not present before the fall. The bible says that all of creation groans for the new heavens and earth were sin will not be there.
Did scorpions, spiders, wasps, cobras, jelly fish, etc. not have venom and their delivery methods before the fall? If they didn't, how long did it take for those creatures to evolve those things for their specific purpose? They didn't need those things to attack plants with. Also, when did the venus fly trap come into being? After the fall? How long did it take that type of plant to develop to do its purpose after Adam and Eve sinned? How long did it take the stomachs of carnivores to evolve so that they could no longer digest plants properly?
edit on 24-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)
[/quote

According to the bible hell was created before the fall of man as far as people being there right now I doubt that because they have not stood before the great white thrown of judgment. I personal believe in soul sleep and that at this present time no one has been judged. The angels that sinned and brought about the giants are presently in chains awaiting judgment at least that is what the book of Jude says. As far as animal and plants being affected by the fall you need to think in power terms rather than evolution. The evolution record shows great changes at various times and not intermediate evolution. God could and can change any plant any animal at any time He wants to without evolution and that is what happened at the fall. As far as God know all this beforehand comes under His divine wisdom which is higher than man and it says in the bible that the wisdom of man is but folly to God and the folly of God is beyond the comprehension of man. If you could see into the future about one of your children and what they will go through and what they will decide to do here and there would you still have that child knowing what they would go through?



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by guitarplayer
According to the bible hell was created before the fall of man...
Can you show me where it says that?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
as far as people being there right now I doubt that because they have not stood before the great white thrown of judgment.
I think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...Sure, it was just a parable, but why use that if that's not what is happening?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
I personal believe in soul sleep and that at this present time no one has been judged.
Where exactly are these souls that are sleeping?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
The angels that sinned and brought about the giants are presently in chains awaiting judgment at least that is what the book of Jude says.
Explain to me how angels and humans are compatible enough to produce such crazy offspring through sexual reproduction..


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as animal and plants being affected by the fall you need to think in power terms rather than evolution. The evolution record shows great changes at various times and not intermediate evolution.
The evolution record shows this? That's a first for me.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
God could and can change any plant any animal at any time He wants to without evolution and that is what happened at the fall.
I wonder why he picked some to be plant eaters and some to be meat eaters....? Why pick certain ones to be predators and others to be prey?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as God know all this beforehand comes under His divine wisdom which is higher than man and it says in the bible that the wisdom of man is but folly to God and the folly of God is beyond the comprehension of man.
Cop out so that you don't have to explain your god.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
If you could see into the future about one of your children and what they will go through and what they will decide to do here and there would you still have that child knowing what they would go through?
It depends on what they would be going through and whether or not I had the power to help them.

You didn't say whether or not your god also created hell for man. Again, if he knows everything-past, present, and future, he had to know the purpose of everything he did. There's NO way around it.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by Siberbat
Like I mentioned before, I am not an expert on scripture but II'll try my best.
That's all I ask.



Originally posted by Siberbat
We can understand the nature of God as best as we can through our own human perseptions in studying the bible.
And everyone who studies the bible interprets things their own way. Thta's why there are so many denominations in christianity. There are those who believe hell exists, others don't. There are those who believe once saved always saved, others do not. There are those who believe baptism is necessary for salvation, others do not. And on and on.


Originally posted by Siberbat
What I am saying, angels as heavenly creatures, have a better understanding of God as they been in the presence of God.
Can't humans be in the presence of god on earth? I thought that when you worshiped him in church that you were in his presence. The bible says where two or three are gathered in his name, he is there in the midst of them.


Originally posted by Siberbat
We can not understand the full extent of God's grace, power and glory until we are out of this exsistance. This does not prevent us from establishing a relationship with God by any means.
How do you know this?


Originally posted by Siberbat
All of creation falls under the Law of God to include the angels. Does this make the angels more liable to the Law of God? In my opinion yes, as they have a higher knowledge and understanding of God.
If they do have a higher understanding and knowledge of god than us, how in the hell could they rebel against him? Do they know something we don't know? And, if these beings who have this higher knowledge and understanding of this god than us and still rebelled, why does this god expect us to follow him without that knowledge and understanding?



Originally posted by Siberbat
The difference is, hunmankind has a redeemer to wipe away our sins if we chose to believe; the fallen angels do not. We are all children of God and are forgiven equally if we chose.
We're so lucky.


Originally posted by Siberbat
I agree with you she was innocent prior to her temptaion. Once she accepted the temptation in her heart she sinned. We commit sin in two ways: by our thoughts and by our actions.
She was still innocent. She was convinced to do something by one of the most subtle creatures in the garden....a talking serpent. (I wonder if that was normal for animals to talk?)


Originally posted by Siberbat
When we commit sin aginst an infinate God, our sin is then infinate.
Why is that? Why would our sin be infinite just because this god is infinite?


Originally posted by Siberbat
There are no deeds that man can do to erase those sins.
I wonder why this god set up a system of sacrificial atonement if that is the case? Seems like this led to many deaths of innocent creatures for no reason.


Originally posted by Siberbat
Sin has infinate consequences.
Why? Why is this omnipotent god so offended by sin. Why does it bother him?


Originally posted by Siberbat
It is through faith that we are cleansed. Faith that Jesus came to earth as God in flesh to save us from those sins.
So he sacrificed himself to himself?


Originally posted by Siberbat
If I were to offend you, do I ask your neighbor for forgiveness for the offense? No, I must come to you and ask to forgive me for how I wronged you.
That is correct, and guess what, you didn't have to kill anybody to ask me to forgive you. And, I can forgive you without you killing anything or anyone.


Originally posted by Siberbat
This is the same with God. So with infinate sin must be infinate mercy. The cross is God's mechanism to free us and justify us with the only sacrifice that is appropriate...Himself.
Makes no sense.


Originally posted by Siberbat
I know many christians in the "real world" have difficulty explaining things. Its hard to explain thing which mainly comes with failth (the heart).
I agree, especially when it doesn't make sense.


Originally posted by Siberbat
It takes soul searching and study. I think if I had to wrap this up in a simple statement it would be: find love for people around you, forgive those who wrong you, and accept salvation as a gift from God who loves you.
I can do those things without a god. You think I need to accept salvation from the guy who says that I deserve to be tortured forever?


Originally posted by Siberbat
I'm blind so if I made and spelling errors...sorry.
Amazing! Much respect! How do you read the forums, if you don't mind me asking?



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 07:11 PM
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Double dag nab it.
edit on 24-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 

Hydro when it comes to the many denominations it can be very confusing. Personally, I am non-denominational. I am not too interested in "church". I feel the "church" is in the process of apostasy. That it focuses on worldly political agendas. That's a another discussion in itself.



Can't humans be in the presence of god on earth? I thought that when you worshiped him in church that you were in his presence. The bible says where two or three are gathered in his name, he is there in the midst of them.

My opinion on this is God is there in the sense of the holy spirit. We do not see the face of God when we gather. If that were the truth, I could tell you about God first hand if I saw him.




If they do have a higher understanding and knowledge of god than us, how in the hell could they rebel against him? Do they know something we don't know? And, if these beings who have this higher knowledge and understanding of this god than us and still rebelled, why does this god expect us to follow him without that knowledge and understanding?

That's a very good question. That question has been asked by scholars for centuries. I doubt we will have the answer while we're in the physical realm. I really don't know why Lucifer and his 1/3 rebelled. As far as God is concerned, I guess the better question is why do we not try harder to understand God? Why does a parent expect their children to obey them. Having the children know everything about the parent is not a requirement for obedience.



Why is that? Why would our sin be infinite just because this god is infinite?

Does the clay tell the potter how to make a bowl? God creates the Law and we break it. There is nothing which man can do, by ourselves, to atone for breaking the Law. Really it comes down to this...if there is no God we lose nothing; however, if there is a God we lose everything and require a redeemer.


I wonder why this god set up a system of sacrificial atonement if that is the case? Seems like this led to many deaths of innocent creatures for no reason.

We are no longer under that system as a new covenant was established with Jesus. The old covenant required the animal sacrifices to make the people understand the seriousness of the sin which they commit. Knowing that a living thing died because of the actions you made. Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for all time and all people.




Why? Why is this omnipotent god so offended by sin. Why does it bother him?


Sin against others offends God because he is their creator and values them, because he is your creator and has instructed you how to live, and because all sin calls God's character into question. Finally, sin against God's people offends God because God has redeemed them and they belong to him and are united to him.

Sorry, this puts it into better words than I can come up with.



So he sacrificed himself to himself?

Exactly! Breaking the Law results in sin. Death is the result of sin. Christ was the only appropriate sacrifice to atone for sin. The evidence for conquering sin and death was the resurrection. I don't know if that helps.

Well, thanks you for your responses. I respect your views and ideas, as you have shown the same respect for me. BTW, I have some awesome software to help me. To be exact, I am legally blind. Visual acuity is 20/400 (normal of course is 20/20). Cheers!



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by Siberbat
That's a another discussion in itself.
True dat.


Originally posted by Siberbat
My opinion on this is God is there in the sense of the holy spirit. We do not see the face of God when we gather. If that were the truth, I could tell you about God first hand if I saw him.
The holy spirit is still god though, right?


Originally posted by Siberbat
Why does a parent expect their children to obey them. Having the children know everything about the parent is not a requirement for obedience.
Then can you apply this to the angels?


Originally posted by Siberbat
Does the clay tell the potter how to make a bowl?
No. The clay doesn't have the capability to reason.


Originally posted by Siberbat
God creates the Law and we break it. There is nothing which man can do, by ourselves, to atone for breaking the Law. Really it comes down to this...if there is no God we lose nothing; however, if there is a God we lose everything and require a redeemer.
Wrong. If the Muslim Allah is god then you lose everything.


Originally posted by Siberbat
We are no longer under that system as a new covenant was established with Jesus.
I was just responding to your post where you said there was nothing we could do to have our sins erased. I thought that was the point of sacrificial atonement using innocent animals....?


Originally posted by Siberbat
The old covenant required the animal sacrifices to make the people understand the seriousness of the sin which they commit. Knowing that a living thing died because of the actions you made. Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for all time and all people.
This teaches people not to be responsible for their own actions. "Hey, I did something wrong, let's punish something else because of it."



Originally posted by Siberbat
Exactly! Breaking the Law results in sin. Death is the result of sin. Christ was the only appropriate sacrifice to atone for sin. The evidence for conquering sin and death was the resurrection. I don't know if that helps.
So, the way for this god to make things better was to sacrifice himself unto himself to appease himself and serve as a loophole for the rule he created to begin with....?


Originally posted by Siberbat
Well, thanks you for your responses. I respect your views and ideas, as you have shown the same respect for me. BTW, I have some awesome software to help me. To be exact, I am legally blind. Visual acuity is 20/400 (normal of course is 20/20). Cheers!
Same to you. Also, it's amazing what science can do today.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by guitarplayer
According to the bible hell was created before the fall of man...
Can you show me where it says that?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
as far as people being there right now I doubt that because they have not stood before the great white thrown of judgment.
I think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...Sure, it was just a parable, but why use that if that's not what is happening?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
I personal believe in soul sleep and that at this present time no one has been judged.
Where exactly are these souls that are sleeping?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
The angels that sinned and brought about the giants are presently in chains awaiting judgment at least that is what the book of Jude says.
Explain to me how angels and humans are compatible enough to produce such crazy offspring through sexual reproduction..


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as animal and plants being affected by the fall you need to think in power terms rather than evolution. The evolution record shows great changes at various times and not intermediate evolution.
The evolution record shows this? That's a first for me.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
God could and can change any plant any animal at any time He wants to without evolution and that is what happened at the fall.
I wonder why he picked some to be plant eaters and some to be meat eaters....? Why pick certain ones to be predators and others to be prey?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
As far as God know all this beforehand comes under His divine wisdom which is higher than man and it says in the bible that the wisdom of man is but folly to God and the folly of God is beyond the comprehension of man.
Cop out so that you don't have to explain your god.


Originally posted by guitarplayer
If you could see into the future about one of your children and what they will go through and what they will decide to do here and there would you still have that child knowing what they would go through?
It depends on what they would be going through and whether or not I had the power to help them.

You didn't say whether or not your god also created hell for man. Again, if he knows everything-past, present, and future, he had to know the purpose of everything he did. There's NO way around it.


This verse does not say when the angels sinned but God did delivered them to hell and put them into chains.
2nd Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Lazarus
At that time there was a burning side of hell and a non burning side of hell called ghena (spelling may be wrong) but Lazarus was in the non burning side of hell the same side that Christ took with him to heaven.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS (Matthew 25:41)



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by Siberbat
 




My opinion on this is God is there in the sense of the holy spirit. We do not see the face of God when we gather. If that were the truth, I could tell you about God first hand if I saw him.


Father comes down here more than others think. If one was to see his face, in the physical, you would die of sheer terror. But, his face is not like a human. The best way to describe it is, his face has more than one if that makes sense. It moves while it is looking at you. When he comes here, he looks as a very tall man. (Physical features) Above, you can see it one of two ways. Spirit or physical. It was done this way for the ones who spend a great time here, not to confuse. (The guardian angels and soldiers)



I really don't know why Lucifer and his 1/3 rebelled.


Not all went with him. There were some that couldn't make a decision when it was asked of them. They now reside on common ground. When man was created, he went to Father and said, let me show you that they can be tempted and go a different path. It was granted. He did many things, and saw how man followed what he wanted. He started to like this. He said, if man can obey me here, what about the others. (A big no, no.) Back then, "angels" were given much more free will on what they could do.

If Lucifer had just tested man and shown Father his point, we would not have this conversation. But, he went further and wanted the power that he came to know could be possible, in his eyes.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 




Then can you apply this to the angels?


There is only one Angel, who knows more about Father than the rest.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by guitarplayer
This verse does not say when the angels sinned but God did delivered them to hell and put them into chains.
2nd Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
So they aren't burning, they are just chained..or what?



Originally posted by guitarplayer
Lazarus
At that time there was a burning side of hell and a non burning side of hell called ghena (spelling may be wrong) but Lazarus was in the non burning side of hell the same side that Christ took with him to heaven.
And the rich man?


Originally posted by guitarplayer
Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS (Matthew 25:41)
Hey, I don't deny that's what the bible says. Now, explain to me how an all-knowing god who created everything with a specific purpose didn't know that hell was also created for man.



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
Father comes down here more than others think. If one was to see his face, in the physical, you would die of sheer terror.
This Father can't appear physically without killing us? Why not? What's his deal?



posted on May, 24 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
There is only one Angel, who knows more about Father than the rest.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh.




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