On What Date Did Human Freedom End?

It ended when the ETs came back to check on their earlier handiwork, whether it had made much of a difference or not. I can imagine that they got mixed feelings from what they saw. Yes, the early giving to various fields of science helped kickstart the present civilization, and yes, the giving of religion and the Ten, helped keep the moral side of the human equation stable and subdued, but obviously, that was enough. --But they knew anyway they would have to submit the world to complete control. The humans were simply running trypically and technologically ahead of their abilities of reason and wisdom. The idiots had puffed up their numbers to 7 billion and still climbing due entirely to their freedom of choice. The whole planet was in danger of dying in addition all of them. Alright, being that they ARE civilized to some extent, time to kick in some restrictive laws to bring thing under contorl and level the entire playing field. There were, after all, future plans for the human animal if they could be controled and nursed along to survival.

No? OK. What's your explanation? Mere happenstance that governments the world over of starting to bow to the UN which automatically means a real New World Order and other such attachments such as Agenda 21?
No world government of any power would willing opt for what is proposed and in the works. Yet it is happening. Governments as a rule do not care about the people above what it cares about itself. People can only influence government when they rise up to get changes made whether it is a new law that they adamently insist upon having or a change of greater magnitude. In other words changes in governments come from outside the force of government. When things start happening directly from governments to laws, restrictions, etc. that are not good for business and the people did not cause such, then some other factor did.

That factor is ETs telling us to shape up or else. And since the world's major governments are in a major, major rush to make direct, self-defeating changes to themselves, business and the every human on the globe , the explanation has to be from an external force of incredible power and persuasiveness. Either it is the hand of God or ETs, and I vote for it being ETs from the very beginning.

IMO, the word "Freedom" is a word made up by the enslaved to express what they desire. If someone truly had freedom, they would not need a word to describe it because it would just BE. Why do we still use it today? I feel we were tricked into thinking we have freedom when really the ninety-nine percent of us are slaves.

The day man thought his laws were better than Moses

Moses needed only to write 10 and man still adds more and more that the first already 10 cover.

reply to post by earthdude


We lost our freedoms when the laws of land ownership changed, allowing 'owners' to deny the use of their land to the us, the 'commoners'.

This forced us into factories and mills to be exploited by the land owners, which created the industrial revolution and the mass exploitation of labour. It lead to the state system we all are now reliant on. It took years of worker organizations to regain some rights for the workers, but our liberty has never been regained. All we get is capitulation.

This was the change from feudalism to capitalism in the mid 1700's.

Originally posted by denver22
reply to post by earthdude

 

The day we were born it seems..

You are bound to the needs to eat, stay warm, drink, reproduce, sleep, clean, defend, group. Therefore, you have never been "free", you cannot be "free" but for fleeting instances in spurts.

You all have great input here. Stars, flags, brownies, and internet points for you all. Here are some quotes I always liked:
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to live- Janis Joplin
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." Easy Rider 1969

Originally posted by tkwasny
You are bound to the needs to eat, stay warm, drink, reproduce, sleep, clean, defend, group. Therefore, you have never been "free", you cannot be "free" but for fleeting instances in spurts.

I guess it depends how you define 'freedom'.

Freedom from nature is something I agree is not possible.

So our interests should be in freedom from force and coercion. We should be working towards breaking down the institutions of force and coercion, political and economical.

Maybe then we can ascend from nature itself.

reply to post by earthdude

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to live- Janis Joplin

The actual lyric is: "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." It was written by Kris Kristofferson.

Originally posted by earthdude
When I was a child there were a few places left on Earth that did not have laws. There were no immigration laws and a person could go there and live without permission from any entity.

Yes, but times change. You and I may remember the 'good old days' but lets face it, we didn't have the internet back then. Or cars. Or radios. Or planes. Or guns. Or indeed most of the stuff we take for granted these days. Yeah, it was better, but wake up man; we can't go living in the past forever.

reply to post by earthdude


“Anarchy is the only slight glimmer of hope” Mick Jagger (For the irony lol)

“Anarchism has but one infallible, unchangeable motto, ‘Freedom.’ Freedom to discover any truth, freedom to develop, to live naturally and fully.” Lucy Parsons

"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of resistance." Woodrow Wilson

"Many politicians are in the habit of laying it down as a self-evident proposition that no people ought to be free till they are fit to use their freedom. The maxim is worthy of the fool in the old story who resolved not to go into the water till he had learned to swim." Thomas Macaulay

"I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation." Mikhail Bakunin

"We stress the advantages of the free enterprise system, we complain about the totalitarian state, but... we have created more or less of a totalitarian system in industry, particularly in large industry." Robert E. Wood, the chief executive officer of Sears.

"[Supporters of capitalism do not understand] "the fundamental doctrine, that you should be free from domination and control, including the control of the manager and the owner" Noam Chomsky

"Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. Of course, as [right-Libertarians] smugly [observe], 'one can at least change jobs,' but you can't avoid having a job -- just as under statism one can at least change nationalities, but you can't avoid subjection to one nation-state or another. But freedom means more than the right to change masters" Bob Black, The Libertarian as Conservative

"[T]he place where [adults] pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus . . . it's apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is not the state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade." Bob Black, on the authoritarian nature of capitalism.

"It is not difficult to foresee which of the two parties [workers and capitalists] must, upon all ordinary occasions... force the other into a compliance with their terms... In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer... though they did not employ a single workman [the masters] could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scare any a year without employment. In the long-run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate. . . [I]n disputes with their workmen, masters must generally have the advantage." Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, pp. 59-60

That is the nature of the authority of capitalism. Adam Smith correctly states that the masters must have, and maintain, their advantage over the rest of us. Thus there can never be freedom for anyone but the capitalist, the rest of us are always subservient to them.

(Note; unless you make your living from your capital, and the hiring of labour, to make profit, you are a worker)

Its nice to see anarchists and totalitarians all chatting together without getting angry. We now have one question before us. What is freedom? We all have our contexts and parameters. We can find peace in the overlap.

For Americans, most of their freedoms ended shortly after 9/11 (I believe it was less than two weeks later).

On the day that George W Bush signed the laughingly misnamed PATRIOT act into law.

And they thanked him for this by reelecting him. Stupid is as stupid does.

reply to post by AndyMayhew

Well, I still have Mars. I can be free there. I'll un-sign treaties ala GW Bush. Anok has hipped me to the fact that I can buy me some freedom with enough money. I count my blessings, I am very free.

Originally posted by babybunnies
For Americans, most of their freedoms ended shortly after 9/11 (I believe it was less than two weeks later).

On the day that George W Bush signed the laughingly misnamed PATRIOT act into law.

And they thanked him for this by reelecting him. Stupid is as stupid does.

Long before the "war on terror" there was and remains a "war on drugs", Congress has giddily expanded their powers yearly declaring the right to regulate all sorts of behavior, and anyone who understands the language of the 14th Amendment understands that the attack on freedom has been going on much longer than 9-11.

Originally posted by babybunnies
For Americans, most of their freedoms ended shortly after 9/11 (I believe it was less than two weeks later).

On the day that George W Bush signed the laughingly misnamed PATRIOT act into law.

And they thanked him for this by reelecting him. Stupid is as stupid does.

One could say we lost a few freedoms or we lost most of our freedoms. It is all in the breadth of your scope of freedom. Mercenaries seem to have more freedom now. They used to get charged with murder but they now get soldier or police status. It didn't even take any new laws to change their new found freedom.
www.personalsovereignty.org... some more quotes, checking out the site.

I dont know about World Freedom - But my research points to 1976 as a clear change in the American Government on the issue. that thought lead me to Hong Kong 1999, when the lease ran out for hong kong and england turned over hong kong to the chinesse. I had a thought to dis prove and I have been unable to - that our founders did not win the Revolutionary War but struck a deal to end the war. investigating and pondering that lead me to ATS. Now the British are notorious for Double Crossing Deals - so famous they fly the Double Crossed Flag (They are Proud of out witting their foes)... I think I found their handy work behind "the IRS" or "theirs"... I as many Americans thought FBI and CIA were for the American People and they are (in reverse) ---they are the enforcers for this hidden government ... which may or may not be the British (I find that all secret services act a single enty (strange but preliminary research suggests it) --- its hard to pry information out of these entities. so your only resource is one they control the Internet -- and one source they dont control - but they control the actions of - and that is the Congressional Record. I believe the Eureka moment came in 1940 - I believe it was Aug 8th. Montana representative "Thornleson?" who put the pieces together for me... England is Israel and America supports Israel and Canada and Australia --Note they are all British -- even in WWII America was leaning to go to war on Hitlers side --- believe it or not there was a Nazi Movement. and I know Hitler was supported before and during the war by America (and I believe he survive not to long after the war) - hell, the machines they used to keep track of people in the concentration camps was built and serviced by IBM. looking at all the anomalys as a whole you come to the conclusion that England owns America.... and the transaction our forefathers entered into with England was mostly a double cross of the collecting all the Malcontents of earth who have the Dis-Satisfaction Gene ... and placing them in a system of Freedom - America - so I can go on with this for hours on end... I think I will write a book and publish it here on ATS.... I mean who can believe our government is growing drugs - importing drugs and arresting people for drugs ... wowzers thats a mind blower.
sources are various and some could be considered conspiracy - but one thing is for sure these people keep records... we just got to read the right ones to know the whole truth --- cant wait till ron paul wins and we get to polygraph these people... like I said after I investigated 911 - when this is all said and done we will be at war with England and Israel -- that statement still remains true. Long Live Freedom

reply to post by 1BornPatriot


None of that has anything to do with personal freedom though.

You might be living in a nation that is independent from any outside influence, but it doesn't mean it's people are free.

Whether Hong Kong is owned by Britain makes no difference the freedom of the people.

Unless we have economic freedom, we are not truly free. The only way for true freedom, for all not just property owners, is through free association. The only way for us to have free association is through worker ownership.

Capitalism tells us it is freedom because it allows private ownership, which in theory sounds logical, until you realise that it is private ownership of the means to produce that puts those who do not own capital in bondage.
Capitalists get their way simply because of their economic power, the workers have no voice.
Capital is only freedom for those lucky enough to own property, capital. Those that do not, the majority, are made subservient to the property owners, and their very existence is decided by them. Or as they try to claim, by uncontrollable market forces. A market system set up to exploit, not meet peoples needs. That is not free-market for anyone but capitalists.

It's easy to accept this system but once the money runs out, what do you do? They took away our right to autonomy. Can you live outside of the state system? Good luck finding a piece of free land.

Since we began experiencing in this body we've been a slave to our bodily needs. Being free of the body requires death (as far as we know). But for various reasons we tend to want to stay alive despite (sometimes because of) the challenges we face.

The circle of life is like a circle of bondage. Absolute freedom might be an unattainable goal that's only possible to approximate.

Originally posted by earthdude

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
From the moment the universe was created there were laws. It is always a mistake to look at man made legislation and assume it is law. Legislation can no more be law than a map of the United States of America can actually be the United States of America. You can't get from New York City to San Francisco by standing on a map, and you will not ever be free by any act of legislation.

From the moment you took your first breath, you were free. So, on what date did your freedom end?

I can see your point and hey, we are all stuck in this thin film of an atmosphere on the surface. But I think my definition of freedom and law is more vast. There was a time and a place in my lifetime where some land had no law. There were places no country had laid claim to. I am sure there were. Small mistakes in surveying or lack of exploration left a part of ground or water free from the laws of man. On my first breath, I was bound by the laws of the united states. There was even a law saying that after that breath, I could not be aborted.

edit on 12-5-2012 by earthdude because: more

Where are theses places that there was no law or government claiming jurisdiction in your lifetime? Governments and mobs have claimed jurisdiction over the entire earth since the dawn of man.

reply to post by earthdude


About the same time as the human race began. I mean there was always something in the way of freedom moreso religion at the dawn of the human race making everything immoral, then when "civilization" begaan than the whip crackers took over and pissed away all the other freedoms we had.