Atheist with a huge premise for the existence of a god.

Originally posted by TheProphetMark
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Too many different religions.
If it was answerable, there would only be one.

I respectfully disagree. There are many different religions because different cultures make sense of the universe in different ways. Besides, religion is simply the art of making things up. None of them have valid, useful explanations for the physical world. Many of them are embarrassingly incorrect.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by TheProphetMark
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Too many different religions.
If it was answerable, there would only be one.

I respectfully disagree. There are many different religions because different cultures make sense of the universe in different ways. Besides, religion is simply the art of making things up. None of them have valid, useful explanations for the physical world. Many of them are embarrassingly incorrect.

I'm not hating on religion or anything. But, the source of religion is pretty much made up. When people think of life, they are thinking with positive energy hense how sometimes religion seems to make sense but doesn't actually make them true. It's like when you're in love, when you write and think aboutt he one you love; you end up saying things you never thought you could say before which turns out to be beautiful. It's basically similar but yet so different.

Each religion offers different perspectives, that's all there is to it. You find the one that you feel connected most, and it's not "God", you feel connected too; it's the person who wrote it and thought it all up. You feel connected with his/her ideas whoever that may be.

I got nothing against religion. I really don't, but I don't believe in the God they believe in so blindly without ever questioning it. They are simply ignorant and choose to listen to what others have to say instead of following their own heart.

reply to post by TheProphetMark


You have to understand that ancient people were a lot closer to nature than modern man. I tend to think they had a greater awareness of a great many things than modern humanity does. So, no, I can't completely agree with you.

I do agree that religion is messed up. However, if you read what has happened to most religions, it's really no surprise. Christianity has been on a down hill slide since 325 A.D...The Nicean council, yada, yada. I imagine you've heard it all before, but it's the truth.

God would not want you to fear him, would you want your own child to fear you? I don't think so.

I would want my children to fear to disobey me if what is being asked of them will be best for them...

The fear of God is the fear to disobey his laws, never to fear God as a whole.

God Bless.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by TheProphetMark

 

You have to understand that ancient people were a lot closer to nature than modern man. I tend to think they had a greater awareness of a great many things than modern humanity does. So, no, I can't completely agree with you.

I do agree that religion is messed up. However, if you read what has happened to most religions, it's really no surprise. Christianity has been on a down hill slide since 325 A.D...The Nicean council, yada, yada. I imagine you've heard it all before, but it's the truth.

What makes you think I didn't know that ancient people were a lot closer to nature than us? Our modern humanity doesn't even come close to them. When they didn't have technology, music, games, and all that other crap to keep themselves occupied with; they thought about life; talked about it among their people, pondered about it so much that it changed them deep inside in a positive way and made them appreciate life, a lot more than how much we appreciate it because nowadays we just take everything for granted. At least that's how most people are today.

reply to post by jiggerj



Yup, just a coincidence, just like all my beads magically were blown onto my beading thread and formed a beautiful necklace.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Yup, just a coincidence, just like all my beads magically were blown onto my beading thread and formed a beautiful necklace.

Yup. Voila!!! Something from nothing.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jiggerj

I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events. I don't want to believe it, but jeez, there had to be some kind of intelligent and deliberate force behind all of it.

What do you think?

I think your "premise" is no more than a huge argument from ignorance fallacy.

Also, asserting an agency behind a chain of contingencies requires that you present the agent. Claiming "there just has to be one" is not an answer.

Yay! I was hoping for a statement such as yours.

The police are viewing the body of a dead woman. Cop 1 says to cop 2, "Looks like she died of natural causes."
Cop 2 points out a bloody knife on the floor.
Cop 1 figures, "She must've committed suicide."
Cop 2 takes a good look at the fingerprints on the knife and compares them to the woman's fingers (just go with it). He says, "The fingerprints aren't hers."
Cop 1 replies, "Out of desperation the husband must have removed the knife from her chest."
Cop 2 gets a little annoyed. "Look, the neighbors heard fighting over here. How much more evidence do you need to figure out this woman was murdered?"
Cop 1 answers, "Asserting an agency behind a chain of contingencies requires that you present the agent. I don't see the husband, or any suspect anywhere."

LOL Of course, in the real world, there would be four items leading to a suspect in the above scenario. Dead woman, bloody knife, fingerprints on the knife, neighbors heard fighting. Just four items leads us to the conclusion that SOMEBODY murdered this woman. I've given EIGHTEEN items PLUS a perfect living cell.

P.S. Don't think for a minute that I'm defending some biblical make-believe god. Whatever brought about so many events leading up to us would be a god in my book. And this god would have a rational, logical existence.

reply to post by jiggerj

One big difference between your crime story and your OP -- the existence of the woman's husband was an objective fact before the crime was committed. It would be more fitting if one of the officers had asserted that, since most women that are murdered are killed by their husband, then it must have been her husband that murdered her. Except, in this case, there's no objective evidence that she was ever married. No men's clothing in the bedroom. Mail only has her name on it. She's not wearing a ring. There's no marriage license on file. Neighbors claim to have heard them talking on occasion, but no one has ever seen him.

Is the logical conclusion that it still must have been her husband, even though there's no evidence that she was ever married?

reply to post by randyvs

The fact is we obviously do have dominion over all the beasts of the earth.

I'll have to remember that the next time I read about a swimmer attacked by a shark and a tourist mauled on Safari by a lion. And if I ever somehow contract a tape worm it's clearly I who have dominion. Yes Randy, clearly, man has dominion

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events.

Personally I think this line of thinking is far too anthropocentric, it places human beings as somehow special compared to other cosmic phenomenon. Sure life is complex and interesting, and, as far as we know, pretty rare, but then so are black holes. There's a lot of fantastically strange things going on in our Universe both on a macro level and a quantum level. Many of these things are only strange, complex and important to us/from our perspective.

The strangeness, complexity, or as you put it "luck" of the current Universe is not really a good argument for a God. After all these events span the last 14 billion years, if a God is involved he's taking his damn sweet time, he spent a good 150 million years on Dinosaurs alone, seems odd if you ask me.

edit on 10-5-2012 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)

If you compare a human being to a black hole, then well......words fail me....tell you what, I look at a loved one, son, mother, father, wife etc and I can assure you they are a lot more "SIGNIFICANT" and special than a black hole.............

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Having dominion ? Doesn't mean we can wup ass on every creature on it's own turf but then, you know that.

So just stop Titen. Mess'in wit my head.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events. I don't want to believe it, but jeez, there had to be some kind of intelligent and deliberate force behind all of it.

What do you think?

You don't need a God to have all that stuff happen. You just need to remember that "time" as we understand it doesn't actually work as we normally understand it. It doesn't flow in one direction from the past through the present to the future, always at the same "speed." It's more like a color, or a temperature. And it's full of holes like a sponge.

And the reason why we got so lucky is because we exist in the universe and our perceptions make it that way, and then it makes us that way, backwards and forwards in time, as it always was, and always will be.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by jiggerj
I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events. I don't want to believe it, but jeez, there had to be some kind of intelligent and deliberate force behind all of it.

What do you think?

You don't need a God to have all that stuff happen. You just need to remember that "time" as we understand it doesn't actually work as we normally understand it. It doesn't flow in one direction from the past through the present to the future, always at the same "speed." It's more like a color, or a temperature. And it's full of holes like a sponge.

And the reason why we got so lucky is because we exist in the universe and our perceptions make it that way, and then it makes us that way, backwards and forwards in time, as it always was, and always will be.

no harm fella, but that sort of interpretation, if anything, leads me to think there may be something more than the physical

reply to post by TheProphetMark


I think there is proof for God. There are great arguments for a theistic God and furthermore the use of logic and math. Before we can even start the convo, we will have to determine what you consider proof and evidence.

Okay, I'm late to the party....
but, the OP makes perfect sense to me......

we don't need the "Holy Handbook" anymore....we have science's gaps and mysteries.....
as well as spiritual gaps and mysteries.

S/F

Originally posted by ElohimJD

God would not want you to fear him, would you want your own child to fear you? I don't think so.

I would want my children to fear to disobey me if what is being asked of them will be best for them...

The fear of God is the fear to disobey his laws, never to fear God as a whole.

God Bless.

WHAT?!!
Wow, um.....wow. Fear is NOT a good way to parent kids...neither is secrecy.....

so, if you think fear and pain are "disciplinary", I would have to ask if your dad or mom ever listened to your questions or problems.

Here's the thing: you don't know what's "best for them" beyond about age 12.....before that you are training them to not run into the street, not touch the burner, not argue with a bully, ...after that, they're sorta on their own. They need a loving shoulder, a sympathetic ear...that says I understand, sweetie. Here is what happened in my life. I don't claim to know exactly how you feel, but I'm confident that you have the tools to survive this hurt/loss. I believe in you."

But that's apparently not so much how your God works.....your "God bless" is God Punish.

FEAR AS A MOTIVE DOES NOT RESULT IN GOOD OUTCOMES

Originally posted by FaceLikeTheSun
reply to post by TheProphetMark

 

I think there is proof for God. There are great arguments for a theistic God and furthermore the use of logic and math. Before we can even start the convo, we will have to determine what you consider proof and evidence.

You simply cannot prove that God exist because the idea of "God" is man made. I'm sure whoever created this, had nothing but good intentions in the long for our Humanity but as of now it seem religion is being abused and causing more trouble than it should.

Like a child who was told Santa claus is real and gives him presents for Christmas if he's a good boy, nothing if he's bad. Humantiy was given religion and there will come a time when everyone will realize that it was all made up to evolve us into intelligent beings to be able to understand life for what it really is and to know better between right and wrong. Unlike the child, who grew out of it by the time he turned 14; Humanity won't grow out of it until thousands, and thousands of years. From what I see on ATS, I see a lot of spritual enlighten people and sometimes I wonder just how many people are enlighten throughout the world. Mark my words, there will come a time where Religion will be scrapped and everyone will know the truth. For us, instead of presents we get knowledge.

Maybe the Gods(Aliens) came here along time ago and introduced it to us, and are simply waiting patiently for us to evolve into loving, intelligent, compassionate beings before they finally decide to reveal themselves to us and co-exist with eachother. Really, who knows?

Ugh, I seriously wish I could have explained that 2nd paragraph better but I can't.

Science or not, and science is certainly not ifallible, it makes a whole lot more sense to me that we were created by God than believing that we evolved from an ameoba. The whole "something from nothing: without an intelligence behind it just makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

Personally I think this line of thinking is far too anthropocentric, it places human beings as somehow special compared to other cosmic phenomenon.

It's only special if we don't blow it, by, you know, being idiots and extincting ourselves by our own fruition.