Atheist with a huge premise for the existence of a god.

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
At the end of any statement of creation could be added the phrase "thus hath God decreed," but this still proves nothing, except to those who believe in God. Scientifically speaking, no matter how likely creation may seem to anyone, it cannot be proven as of now, from a logical point of view. That is to say, one cannot bring forth premises A, B, and C that will logically lead to the conclusion D, that God created everything. I know what you mean though about coincidences, and the sheer magnificence and design-like qualities life on Earth possesses. It does make one think there was a creator.

Let's dig in a little deeper. I know I've written this before but I don't remember where, so please forgive if you've read it before.

Consider the very first living cell. Out of a few inorganic materials sprang forth a PERFECT living cell. From carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen a cell was formed. That cell contained mitachondria: the means to produce and store energy to keep the cell alive long enough to split into two cells. No mitachondria, no life. The DNA contains MASSIVE amounts of information - information that was obtained from inorganic matter - and that's impossible! No DNA - no life. The chromosomes had to know how to replicate itself in exact size, and then transfer the exact same information to the new chromosomes; one flaw - no life. All of the new chromosomes had to know when to migrate to one side of the cell when that cell was about to split into two cells, with all of the original chromosomes knowing when to move to the opposite side of the cell. One tiny piece of the new, or one tiny piece of the old chromosomes moving to the wrong side - no life.

All of this perfection from dumb atoms with no outside influence? This is very hard to swallow.

reply to post by InfoKartel

if you by accident - step on an ant, those ants must think you are at war with them(yes I know ants don't think).

If ants COULD THINK, then they might have a reason to think that we are at war with them, what with exterminators and all. Killing a lifeform that is capable of reason and emotion is quite different from killing an ant which has no emotions, no thoughts, etc. Generally the more intelligent an animal the more questionable it is to kill it.

But how the hell could an ant read a humans mind enough to comfortably project its own ideas as if it were the ideas of a human?

But how the hell could an ant read a humans mind enough to comfortably project its own ideas as if it were the ideas of a human?

Ants aren't sentient conscious beings capable of abstract thought. Empathy is the ability to project oneself into the mental and emotional state of another and it takes a certain level of intelligence. Consciousness and empathy are things we can recognize, we can see it in intelligent life like ourselves and certain other mammals. If God is also a conscious being perhaps we cannot project ourselves to his level but surely he could project himself to ours right? Isn't that kinda what the whole JESUS thing was about? Or are we so low that God thinks of us as ants? But if that's the case why create life in the first place, if he was just going to treat it as indifferently as we treat insects?

This goes back to the idea that the entire Universe was created for us, most theistic worldviews seem to think this, but really with billions of galaxies, if there is a God, how important could we actually be? Could it be that there is a God who simply didn't create life at all, that life was an accidental consequence of God creating the Universe? These sorts of hypotheticals can be tossed around forever without ever arriving at a conclusion because they are not falsifiable.

You cannot, as a small child, fathom the thought processes of yourself as an adult, or any other adult for that matter.

But you can, as a child, have knowledge that your parent exists so the analogy really doesn't work for God. We have no evidence to suggest the existence of deities, no giant boots overhead threatening to squish us and no signs of something beyond the natural interacting with the natural. That's why if there's a God it seems more likely to be a deistic one, one who doesn't intervene, who sets the Universe up like a set of dominoes and then sits back to watch them fall. In deism it makes sense that there's no evidence for God, in most versions of monotheism God performs miracles, sends disasters, and goes around leaving evidence of himself everywhere.

I tend to agree with my good friend Thomas Paine on this one.

But when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.

The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence? www.fordham.edu...

I couldn't have said it better.

The nations who never heard of such books, nor of such people as Jews, Christians, or Mahometans, believe the existence of a God as fully as we do, because it is self-evident. The work of man's hands is a proof of the existence of man as fully as his personal appearance would be.

When we see a watch, we have as positive evidence of the existence of a watchmaker, as if we saw him; and in like manner the creation is evidence to our reason and our senses of the existence of a Creator.

The idea of a creator is one thing. The biblical stories of "god" and the human traits he embodies is an entirely different beef stew.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

If ants COULD THINK, then they might have a reason to think that we are at war with them,

*Sigh*

You obviously did not get the analogy.

Ants aren't sentient conscious beings capable of abstract thought.

You still haven't gotten the analogy. If you are taking the ant story literally then you are too young of mind to understand what I'm saying.

Or are we so low that God thinks of us as ants?

...*sigh* the point was that our thinking is like that of an ant compared to the thinking of a divine being. We're simply not in the same league. Is that really so hard to understand?

But you can, as a child, have knowledge that your parent exists so the analogy really doesn't work for God.

You really are not good at understanding analogies are you? The point was not that the parents exist, but the point was that the child can never grasp the thought processes of adults.

That's why if there's a God it seems more likely to be a deistic one, one who doesn't intervene, who sets the Universe up like a set of dominoes and then sits back to watch them fall.

*sigh* And you're back at square 1.

In deism it makes sense that there's no evidence for God, in most versions of monotheism God performs miracles, sends disasters, and goes around leaving evidence of himself everywhere.

I don't even believe you've read the Bible...or the Quran, or the Torah. So exactly how can you make that statement?

By the same token aren't we then also lucky to have a God that was made to create and care just for us, that was created by an even bigger God to that, and that bigger God was created by an enormous God ... and so it goes into infinity.

If nothing can be random, or in a constant outcome of interactions, and everything is created simply because it seems spectacular to us, then surely something created the creator.

Either that or we must admit that creation stops somewhere, and a highly complex and unfathomable being called God just existed by pure chance.

So the dilemma of chance as a cause for complexity isn't really solved by bringing God into the picture.
That just repeats it.

Originally posted by jiggerj

I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events. I don't want to believe it, but jeez, there had to be some kind of intelligent and deliberate force  behind all of it. 

What do you think?

edit on 5/10/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

edit on 5/10/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

"As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation." Luke 11:29-30

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what he has made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..." Romans 1:18-22

"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 53

You may say that you won't believe in any of the 'gods' of religion. God is not a religion, and did not form a church but a body of believers. Don't be surprised, but your new line of thinking is trying to get you to directly seek Him. Don't waste it. Pray and ask Him yourself for belief. There is only one SIGN given to all of us, and that is your awareness of Christ Jesus, dying and being resurrected after three days in the heart of the Earth. Do what is in your heart, but know this, He wishes for all to be saved. But most won't because the love of sin hardens their heart, causing them to reject Him for the pleasure of wickedness. How? Just as a diehard alcoholic, who loves their drink, won't walk into the Betty Ford Clinic. Just as a young man hooked on daily porn will fight for his right to view it. Just as a drug abuser wants to legalise drugs no matter how many families are destroyed because of it. Just as a woman can view her unborn baby as just cells so that she can override her innate commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Just as a person is indoctrinated into the love of greed refuses a call to charity. And just as science  indoctrinates us into proving all things before accepting them as truths, science doesn't apply it's own mantra to its very own "creation myth", the theory of evolution .

Earnestly seek Him and he shall find Him.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

it places human beings as somehow special

I'm pretty sure God concurs Titen. He gave man dominion.

I don't see any chimps building rocket ships and orbiting the planet. Unless we put thier ass in one.

Originally posted by TheProphetMark

Can you prove God exist? No you can't.

I think the O.P. already did, you just don't want to open your eyes. Living in blind denial is part of your free will.

You're going to quote scriptures now?

Absolutely. John 9:39

39) And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

So, those who live by faith will see the truth and those who require proof by sight, will be blind to the truth.

The Bible isn't proof, because it was written by men.

It's a shame that people's minds are so small that they can't imagine that the same God who was capable of creating the universe and everything in it isn't capable of protecting the intent of the Word of God (Bible).

You're taking it out on blind faith out of fear of going to "hell" and that was the whole purpose of the Bible or any other religious book in the first place, to control the population.

No, we take it on blind faith because the Holy Spirit has spoken to us and we have been witnesses to many miracles and blessings that have been bestowed upon us and others.

If God was real, he would show it to his true believers and yet they continue to use the Bible as proof, therefore God cannot exist.

That's the key word. TRUE BELIEVERS. He has shown his true believers through the Word of God.

John 1:1

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I believe in the idea of God, maybe with 10% certainly. Those who blindly follow the Bible or any other religion for that matter are gulliable fools who are full of fear. God would not want you to fear him, would you want your own child to fear you? I don't think so.

I've never understood all of this FEAR talk coming from unbelievers. Doesn't everyone fear someone or something? When people have extra marital affairs, they fear getting caught by their spouse. When people steal, they fear getting caught by law enforcement. When people do something vindictive to someone else, they fear retribution from the person they are being vindictive towards. When you play with fire, you fear getting burned (metaphorically speaking). So, I don't understand how this word is exclusive to religion.

reply to post by randyvs


But I do not concur with the idea that human beings have dominion Randy, and what if the chimps don't either.

Did you know that Chimps actually forge crude spears and go to war with rival factions over territory? Sounds an awful like like human TRIBAL behavior doesn't it. Better watch it Randy, we're not the only smart apes on this rock

reply to post by jiggerj


Boy, we sure are lucky that the sun rises every morning....

reply to post by Deetermined

I think the O.P. already did, you just don't want to open your eyes. Living in blind denial is part of your free will.

Who said I lived in blind denial? I used to believe in God, and Jesus and the Bible and what good did that do me? It only seemed to have made me even more blind. I've opened my eyes and saw NOTHING because I saw past the Illusion that Religion was meant to be.

Absolutely. John 9:39

39) And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Now how did I know you or someone else would quote scriptures from the Bible or any other religious text? Because that's all you Religious people have to go to, in order to prove the existance of God. A man made book.

No, we take it on blind faith because the Holy Spirit has spoken to us and we have been witnesses to many miracles and blessings that have been bestowed upon us and others.

Many miracles? What you call miracles, I call a meaningless coincidence. There are trillions of trillions of things happening on this planet every second that goes by, and as time comes on there is bound to be a miracle that will happen; where people will look and think to themselves; Hey, that's rare and take it as a sign that it was a miracle peformed by God because he "Watches" over us".

There's really no point in arguing with religious people.

Originally posted by jiggerj

I don't know about any of you, but for me this is WAY WAY WAY too many lucky things to happen to be purely random events. I don't want to believe it, but jeez, there had to be some kind of intelligent and deliberate force behind all of it.

What do you think?

I think your "premise" is no more than a huge argument from ignorance fallacy.

Also, asserting an agency behind a chain of contingencies requires that you present the agent. Claiming "there just has to be one" is not an answer.

reply to post by jiggerj


I would completely agree. I've said many times that atheism, in a sense, is a religion. I say that because it seems to me that it takes an awful lot of FAITH to believe that everything just "accidently" happened the way that it did.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

But I do not concur with the idea that human beings have dominion Randy, and what if the chimps don't either

But see it doesn't matter if you or I concur. The fact is we obviously do have dominion over all the beasts of the earth. I realize I may be on thin ice here. Sure don't want any poo thrown at me.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I would completely agree. I've said many times that atheism, in a sense, is a religion. I say that because it seems to me that it takes an awful lot of FAITH to believe that everything just "accidently" happened the way that it did.

edit on 11-5-2012 by SpeakerofTruth because: (no reason given)

I wouldn't think of it as "accidently" happen the way it did. We are here, and we are aware of our place in this Universe. It's only logical to question just how it really happened, for us to come to be. If you think of all the billions of billions of stars, imagine if 98% of all those planets around the stars are unable to have life. When we think of that, we know that we are lucky to be here. Very lucky.

And I do believe in Aliens, always have and I always will. I know; we are NOT alone in the vastness of this Universe.

reply to post by TheProphetMark


If that were the case,and I'm not saying that it is, I'd ask why earth. Why did earth "accidently" have the correct components for life? That would even deepen the mystery, really.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by TheProphetMark

 

If that were the case,and I'm not saying that it is, I'd ask why earth. Why did earth "accidently" have the correct components for life? That would even deepen the mystery, really.

edit on 11-5-2012 by SpeakerofTruth because: (no reason given)

As humans we are aware and can think intelligently. So of course many would ask that question. "Why Earth"? Why not just "let it be"? We are lucky to be here, and that's basically all there is to it. Questioning the unanswerable will only lead to insanity, ever wonder maybe that's how religion came to be? Religion is insanity. Maybe whoever came up with this idea, knew how easily it would be to exploit people. One person would share the idea with another, and another, and another, basically forming "Secret Societies".

Originally posted by TheProphetMark
Questioning the unanswerable will only lead to insanity

What ever makes you believe that questions regarding life's origins are unanswerable?
.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Too many different religions.
If it was answerable, there would only be one.

Let's not forget that religion is all based on blind faith.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Why did earth "accidently" have the correct components for life?

It is possible that life is an inevitable result of complex chemistry. There may not be a "magic-bullet" type planet to which life requires "correct components".