What can Occupy do about police violence?

I've been reading over the last few hours, about how apparently Occupy are planning on making a comeback this spring. The problem is, I can see them trying to do that, but then simply receiving another severe beating from the police, and the whole thing fading away as a result.

Police brutality seems to be an immovable obstacle where Occupy are concerned. People yelling "shame," at cops while they are bashed and/or pepper sprayed by them, also doesn't seem likely to be a very effective response. It is a major morale, recruitment, and endurance issue; nobody wants to get bashed by cops or arrested, and I think that must inevitably lower Occupy's numbers, particularly long term.

Public apathy is a major part of the problem. While I agree that it's tragic, I think Occupy need to start being a lot more realistic about the amount of support they really have from the mainstream public. I wouldn't know how many comments I've seen here on ATS and other places around the Internet, which have resorted to archaic hippy stereotypes, and/or have completely sympathised with the police over the police's brutality towards Occupy members.

The single main reason why I think this needs to be acknowledged, is because if it is acknowledged, then a new approach can be found, which takes said awareness into account, and which may become much more effective as a result. I'm not pointing this out in order to be hostile towards Occupy myself, at all; I'm saying this because I want to see the movement turn things around.

There needs to be more outreach towards the Right, and less pandering towards the Left. Yes, OWS; you've got Greenpeace, and Code Pink, and MoveOn.org, and the Socialist Alliance, and the Communists on board. That's great, but the only problem with it is, that as far as the mainstream public (and especially conservatives) are concerned, said groups do not represent them; in fact, they are generally considered diametrically opposed to the beliefs and values of said mainstream public.

Occupy are not going to reach the majority of (particularly conservative) American society, if they continue to so visibly and prominently associate themselves with the above named organisations. Said organisations are essentially a roll call of the radical Left; the majority of the American public, on the other hand, are trending further and further towards the hard Right. In so prominently affiliating itself with these organisations, Occupy are demonstrating that they are not the 99%; they're just another 1%, but that 1% are no less distant from the mainstream public than the corportate 1% who Occupy are in opposition to.

Greenpeace, as one prominent example, are not a group that have ever enjoyed the support of the majority of the public. On the contrary, they have traditionally been perceived as a radical Left, extremist cult; even bordering on a terrorist organisation, depending on who you ask. They aren't the sort of group that most of the public, are going to feel warm and fuzzy towards. The public also, unfortunately, are therefore not likely to sympathise when Greenpeace or those who are considered similar, are bashed by the police; even if in their own minds, Greenpeace are trying to do everything they can to help said public.

I am aware of the Leftist proverb that if the leader of an alliance is comfortable with every other person sitting at their table, then they haven't posted enough invitations; but again, the problem is that the mainstream public do not feel this way. At this point, the American public, as mentioned, are trending further and further towards fascism; the radical Right. Such a public are not going to want organisations like Greenpeace attempting to speak for them; exactly the opposite.

I think my overall point here, is that one of the main reasons why I feel Occupy is struggling to the extent that it is, right now (and I hope that there will be sufficient honesty here, that I will not be refuted on that point) is because, as I have said before, Occupy are a fundamentally Left organisation, who are trying to appeal to a fundamentally Right mainstream population.

The movement needs to become a lot more appealing to conservatives. I'm not sure how we can achieve that, exactly; but I do know that it needs to be done.

reply to post by petrus4

I think the main problem is with their message. It does not seem clearly defined, and certainly not well communicated. Parts of the message, "forgiveness of student loans" for example, are not appealing to conservatives. Currently, not even MSM is providing favorable coverage.

Also, some of the tactics used, whether by OWS members or those pretending to be OWS members need to be stopped. The movement will never gain main stream support when urine and feces are being used as weapons.

edit: Would it be that difficult to rent some port-a-potties? And with proper permits, they could even hire off duty police as security for their events. They could work more effectively within the system, rather than against it.

Well, first off stop thinking you have the right to do anything you want to in a protest. You don't. You don't have the right to squat on somebody else's land, be it government or public. Stop doing crap like that and the police won't have any reason to arrest you for breaking the law.

Secondly, don't mess with the cops. They'll stomp you and you'll lose.

Thirdly, know your rights and use them PROPERLY:

flexyourrights.org...

Make sure you have the right permits.

Make sure you obey the law and stop thinking you can do anything you want. You can't. You have the right to protests, but do it responsibly and sensibly, and the police won't have any reason to arrest you.

Rights come with responsibilities.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
Make sure you obey the law and stop thinking you can do anything you want. You can't. You have the right to protests, but do it responsibly and sensibly, and the police won't have any reason to arrest you.

Rights come with responsibilities.

The only problem with this, is that apparently they have been trying to change the law, so that in practical terms, people really don't have the right of assembly any more at all. I don't advocate not being law abiding; but when they change the law so you can't do what you should be able to, that becomes a problem.

You're right, the Occupy protests will always be met with police brutality, and i'm guessing a lot more different types of protests will too.

I can see people getting fed up, and giving up on peaceful protest, possibly turning violent, and I totally respect that.

I'm sick of the "peaceful protest is the only way" people. Yes, it worked for Ghandi in his day, and for many others in their day, but let's face it, we're in a much different situation nowadays, where violence is the only answer, either that or the PTB somehow get scared into stopping oppression (pfft!).

It really annoys me how peaceful protest is deemed the only way, do people honestly believe that in this day and age, sitting there while being pelted by the police is going to achieve anything? No, it's not. I'm a firm believer that if the lawmakers are allowed to use force, then so should the regular person. No human being should be allowed to harm another human being, whether they wear a uniform or not.

Also, there is the alternative of just completely boycotting anything to do with Government, such as refusing to fill up your car, buying from local shops only etc. ..... but you would never convince enough people to do this.

They need an Army. When they march it should be a march. They need uniforms. They a standard that members must pledge to.

The 'Wide Awake Republican's' have a great blueprint for how a movement should look.
en.wikipedia.org...

They need to show that they are a group that commands respect. They need to show that they will not be intimidated.

They need to be committed.


Who would mess with these guys?

Originally posted by domasio
It really annoys me how peaceful protest is deemed the only way, do people honestly believe that in this day and age, sitting there while being pelted by the police is going to achieve anything? No, it's not. I'm a firm believer that if the lawmakers are allowed to use force, then so should the regular person. No human being should be allowed to harm another human being, whether they wear a uniform or not.

I would agree, but there's two problems with this.

a] Even the police themselves are much better armed and trained than most civilians, in the use of violence.

b] Even if the cops themselves are somehow overwhelmed, they can then escalate to the military, in which case the civilian population will lose.

I also agree that boycotting is really the only option, but the public have been trained to crave instant gratification to far too great a degree for that.

reply to post by petrus4


Darn, I forgot about the military. But then again, you could always hope that military personnel will care more about their own people, than their bosses if it came to a major revolution.

Hope is overrated nowadays though, things nowadays seem to lean to a greater chance of oppression than freedom.

Occupy can do nothing about police violence. It doesn't have the numbers and your laws have taken away the peoples protection, guns. When any organised pressure starts to stir up discontent among others, the coercive bourgeois arm of the state will follow with an iron fist.

Take a bullet and give the 1% like me a break.

I think you touched on a lot of issues with the occupy movement. As far as what can be done against police brutality, the answer is nothing. That is not to say things cannot change, but I believe that change will have to come from the higher ups in police command, and it won't be done because of a change of heart or sympathy (or God forbid for constitutional reasons).

In order for that to happen Occupy would need to reach critical mass; constant numbers (high numbers in the tens of thousands) of focused individuals not afraid of temporary (hopefully) pain and arrest. If that were to happen it would force police tactics to change for the simple fact of the possibility of numerous possible lawsuits (even if only 1-5% are justified) and because the criminal system (court and detainment) is simply not equipped to handle large amounts of arrests on a daily basis. The mayor and commissioner would be forced to cut back on arrests, and the brutality practiced, which is mostly used to prevent the movement from growing, will be lessened.

On your other point of pandering to leftists organizations, I agree. I think organizations such as move-on and code pink do more to damage the movement than it does help the movement. Their associations with democrats (which haven't been any different from republicans for years now) and how it’s structured (hierarchal), isn't the direction that I believe the movement needs to head towards. I also agree that they need to do more to get independents and conservatives along board and those organizations are counter-productive to that.

Another subject you touched on is the need to vary their tactics. Protest is great and all but can't be the only or even main focus of the movement. Organized boycotting, strikes, organized letter writing, and coming up with ways to use available technology (like apps, open sourced social media etc.). Pooling of monies to cover certain expenses and maybe incentives for those most active might be another tactic, although that is a slippery slope which brings its own share of issues. House parties or renting of halls for the purpose of socializing, watching of vital documentaries and attracting expert speakers in given fields that are directly tied to the movement for the sake of greater educational awareness is something else that can be explored.

There are many ways to skin a cat like the saying goes.

occupy is still around?

There is ONLY one way :

CRITICAL MASS.

Police will NOT stop 1,000,000 people march or protest.

So, OWS need NUMBERS.And to get numbers, OWS needs a message.Protesting against the 1% it is NOT a strong message.A strong message will be : "Change the system.We need a new world.Death to capitalism and corporatism".

OWS cannot grow stronger without a strong message.

No, not really. It's pretty much dead at this point. But there will always be die hard never say die people around to stir things up for the NWO.

They cannot do anything about police violence. Until they arm themselves and put snipers on the roof tops.

Originally posted by groingrinder
They cannot do anything about police violence. Until they arm themselves and put snipers on the roof tops.

Yeah, because that's gonna fix things.

How can they stop police violence? How about "stop acting like ass-hats around the cops and riling them up."?

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
No, not really. It's pretty much dead at this point. But there will always be die hard never say die people around to stir things up for the NWO.

Did you read the OP? He answers that question with accurate information. The movement spent time regrouping, like the naysayers said they should.... and now, the rebirth is taking place..

I think their current solution to "police violence" has been working fine. Film every instance of eye contact with police and upload it to you tube with the title of "police brutality".

The occupy protests just need to keep from getting out of hand and be peaceful. When you are trespassing or destroying property that is not your own or becoming violent or any of the other many illegal things the occupy movement does - you will be met with a police force determined to stop your illegal activities.

Perhaps if there was more to the movement than getting stuff for free or taking things that other people have earned, you will get more followers. After all, there are more of us who feel that you need to earn your living than there are those of you who just want it all handed to you.

Originally posted by tallcool1
The occupy protests just need to keep from getting out of hand and be peaceful. When you are trespassing or destroying property that is not your own or becoming violent or any of the other many illegal things the occupy movement does - you will be met with a police force determined to stop your illegal activities.

Perhaps if there was more to the movement than getting stuff for free or taking things that other people have earned, you will get more followers. After all, there are more of us who feel that you need to earn your living than there are those of you who just want it all handed to you.

I don't recall any proof that protestors initiated violence....... please provide.