ATS is not a police state! Quit the censcorship nonsense!

I agree its not a police state, but it does not have completely free speech either. I've noticed they delete links to a site that has posted lies about ats and put this pic up...



I find it ironic that they plaster a free speech banner over a deleted post, and even more ironic that they do it on a site such as ats. So free speech is all well and good when they don't say anything that bothers you, but if they do then all of a sudden they are no longer allowed to be heard. This is a slippery slope, it's how all censorship begins. I'm sorry but part of having free speech means tolerating others peoples comments regardless of how factual they may be, they still should be heard imo. I'd rather put up with a bit of crap here and there than go down the road of censorship. But this is not my site, so ultimately I have no say in the matter, I just think the owners should consider how many people will be turned off by this sort of thing. The profanity deletion was ok, but I don't know how much further they can push it.

reply to post by Anon77


That's the point I was trying to make to schuyler

I love seeing ''we live in a police state!'' threads next to the ''why haven't we made (insert any verb/noun) illegal!) threads under new topics here lately. Hypocrisy at its finest.
From what I have seen the Mods do great but I have noticed people say they don't understand what exactly got their post deleted. I assume there is a grey area, where the reason might not be obvious to everyone. I'd like to see examples of some of these debated posts out of curiosity (names and what not blacked out) If for no reason then just to clarify where in the T&C these things are covered...I never see the original offending post before a Mod but occasionally someone seems to genuinely not understand as to how it was offensive.

Originally posted by smurfy
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Did you mean a sabbatical from ATS? No matter, ATS is not a haven of democracy. Actually most of the mods do an excellent job here, Greeneyedleo a mod, one of the best I have to say. Others, including one owner, I'm not so sure of, but that's just my take on it.

Yes, a "vacation" from ATS. I found myself super paranoid, wearing tin foil hats and muttering comments about the grays while stocking my hidden nuclear bunker with non-perishable items.

Seriously, just wanted to unplug for a while. But now you're all graced with my prescense again!

No, it's not a police state.

It's a privately owned website where the owner can do what he wishes.

Don't like it? Leave.

Originally posted by mwood
No, it's not a police state.

It's a privately owned website where the owner can do what he wishes.

Don't like it? Leave.

Exactly.

By the way, your avatar is so sad....

I saw this thread and at first I was going to bypass it. but I have noticed good discussion threads disapear faster than george zimmerman. Ats is not our site but why are soo many threads getting 404'ed ? threads that are on topic. discussing current events being deleted because of so-called t&c violations or is there another reason
more sinister this is a conspiracy site and paranoia does go hand in hand and one thing i have learned in my time here 3 years as a member and 4 years prior as a lurker some topics are ABOVE TOP SECRET...........
perhaps the site owners should start a thread asking the community of ATS what they want instead of dictating what the don't want discussed ie 404

reply to post by smyleegrl


The term "Police State" is in reference to tyrannical GOVERNMENT action(s) taken against citizens. ATS is not the government, they are a private company and can censor whatever they wish, and you agreed to the terms when you signed up. To compare ATS censorship to a Police State is nothing more than a red herring.

Not a police state, maybe we need a better term, a Nanny State, perhaps?
Consider the following:

The news out recently is that involved cell phone companies and the government are wanting to be able to shut off "stolen" cell phones. We can assume to protect the original owners from undue charges.

That explanation almost has it right. The way I see it is that deactivation feature is not for stolen phones—why would the industry or government give a # about such petty crimes that have a short lived usefulness to the thief? No. --It is about the ability to hit that button to cut off a dissident. We already know that cells are great for whipping together a flash mob or to galvanize a group into other forms of quick action. Just as the military had the power in 1947 to monitor and cut telephone and teletype, as they did at the time of the Roswell crash. This new tool of government and industry is not merely about cutting a wide band of communication, to specific phones –meaning individuals. It has an ulterior motive.

Let's carry that a bit further: The DHS builds lists of interconnected individuals which is done automatically, of course with nicely tailored algorithms these days created for just such purposes. All it takes is a touch to the kill button for that list and all aboard automatically lose communications and nobody else is affected, just the wild-eyed radicals.

We know that all of the major computer and communication companies are in league with the secret workings of our intelligence agencies. They are simply being patriotic as they must or else.... the new plans to deactivate "stolen" phones will be no different. –Add Samsung TVs and probably others to that list of new methods of cooperation for spying on and controling citizens.

It’s always to your advantage to look for hidden agendas and reasons for actions by any group than to simply believe their explanations.

--Now, if you want to insist that what I've poorly described above is pure BS, or that the new Samsung TVs that can watch and listen to viewers is not a wide-open door for citizen surveilance, than you have not been keeping up on the news or your mind simply can't handle the implications. In that case, I'm sorry. I've just been wasting my time and yours.

reading a similar thread nearly every day now.
remember being censored over a silly joke involving the thread where someone was insisting that an armless humanoid was coming out of the forest every night and kicking his back door (am sure you all know the one, he was even nicknamed on here).i said he was not very well endowed in the artists impression and was given a warning.i appealed it and lost.was quite a joke and i didnt contribute for about 6 months...who knows what i missed...or perhaps i could have solved some riddle in the interim period.
always those with least power that wield it so robustly.
mind you some mods do seem to allow humour.agree no swearing,no dirty jokes but really i think if humour is tame enough that it could appear in a sitcom leave it alone.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

The term "Police State" is in reference to tyrannical GOVERNMENT action(s) taken against citizens. ATS is not the government, they are a private company and can censor whatever they wish, and you agreed to the terms when you signed up. To compare ATS censorship to a Police State is nothing more than a red herring.

I think you misunderstood my post.

The title is misleading, I see that now but I can't change it. What I meant was that ATS is being compared to a police state by some members who claim ATS won't let them post anything they want.

For the record, I think ATS rules are reasonable and worthwhile.

Originally posted by Djarums
reply to post by HermesTrismegistus

 

Really? We're worse than Hitler because we have T&C's... says a guy who "signed up" 2 days ago.

Sorry your stay this time wasn't as long as last time. Better luck on a site who's administration will tolerate your lies and stupidity.

Banned.

No "sock puppets" or secrets here. Transparency.

edit on Apr 10th 2012 by Djarums because: (no reason given)

Guy is here 2 days and thinks he knows it all. Some people's children.

I'm glad there are rules otherwise it would be a site of name calling because people get very passionate about certain topics.

The mods are doing their job. It might not fit your emotions for the moment, but they are here to protect us from our egos and emotional attachments to certain topics.

Originally posted by vipertruck99
reading a similar thread nearly every day now.
remember being censored over a silly joke involving the thread where someone was insisting that an armless humanoid was coming out of the forest every night and kicking his back door (am sure you all know the one, he was even nicknamed on here).i said he was not very well endowed in the artists impression and was given a warning.i appealed it and lost.was quite a joke and i didnt contribute for about 6 months...who knows what i missed...or perhaps i could have solved some riddle in the interim period.
always those with least power that wield it so robustly.
mind you some mods do seem to allow humour.agree no swearing,no dirty jokes but really i think if humour is tame enough that it could appear in a sitcom leave it alone.

It's bad that I laughed at "Kicking his back door in"

Still at least he wasn't well en...oh nevermind.

reply to post by vipertruck99

but really i think if humour is tame enough that it could appear in a sitcom leave it alone.

You obviously don't watch the same sitcoms as me.

Barney The Dinosaur plays basketball.

reply to post by smyleegrl

I, for one, have no desire to participate in a thread where profanity and name-calling are mainstays.

but you said damn in your rant

Anyways, I agree with you about 99.9%. There are occasions where, to us the users, it appears mods are being vindictive or selective in their modding, it happens.

But they aren't "censoring" content other than stuff that is clearly banned in the T&C. This isn't a popularity contest, and it's not facebook. We are here, like you said, for civil debate on fringe topics. It's becoming increasingly hard to do this here, but the mods are indeed doing their best.

I've had posts removed, warnings issued, even had to create a new account. I've only ever had 1 complaint when it came to moderation, and I've been moderated plenty.

Short answer? Grow up! Act like adults, and stop whining. This site is content driven, but once we hand over the content it's ATS's. ATS has a web presence and reputation to uphold, which is why the mods do what they do.

If you really feel the need to discuss taboo topics, or curse and act like idiots, I'm sure you'll have a great time at GPL.

reply to post by PutAQuarterIn

From what I have seen the Mods do great but I have noticed people say they don't understand what exactly got their post deleted. I assume there is a grey area, where the reason might not be obvious to everyone. I'd like to see examples of some of these debated posts out of curiosity (names and what not blacked out) If for no reason then just to clarify where in the T&C these things are covered...I never see the original offending post before a Mod but occasionally someone seems to genuinely not understand as to how it was offensive.

glad you mentioned that. I had a similar incident in which I honestly had no clue what got removed or why, it was a fast paced thread and very active. Once I got the warning, I contacted the mod via u2u to clarify if it was possible to see the removed content for myself, to at least see where I went off course.

In that case, the mod quickly replied with the quoted portion. I have even suggested this be an automated thing.

Once a post is moderated, the user can't see it, no one can. What I think SHOULD happen, is the user when getting the automated u2u about the post removal, should get a quoted portion of the post.

I'm not sure if that should be a public issue, I don't see that being any good, but the user should have recourse to at least see what was wrong, if not openly challenge it.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

I, for one, have no desire to participate in a thread where profanity and name-calling are mainstays.

but you said damn in your rant

Anyways, I agree with you about 99.9%. There are occasions where, to us the users, it appears mods are being vindictive or selective in their modding, it happens.

But they aren't "censoring" content other than stuff that is clearly banned in the T&C. This isn't a popularity contest, and it's not facebook. We are here, like you said, for civil debate on fringe topics. It's becoming increasingly hard to do this here, but the mods are indeed doing their best.

I've had posts removed, warnings issued, even had to create a new account. I've only ever had 1 complaint when it came to moderation, and I've been moderated plenty.

Short answer? Grow up! Act like adults, and stop whining. This site is content driven, but once we hand over the content it's ATS's. ATS has a web presence and reputation to uphold, which is why the mods do what they do.

If you really feel the need to discuss taboo topics, or curse and act like idiots, I'm sure you'll have a great time at GPL.

Ouch, you caught me! I don't normally use profanity but sometimes....its the only word that fits. IMO, there are far worse words that get used, and those were the ones I don't like to read.

I'm not a prude, jokes are fine and even crude jokes are okay with me (I know not everyone else feels that way). But to deliberate call someone an insulting name, or to refer to their writings in an insulting way...that crosses the line.

I'm very glad I'm not a mod. Its a constant balancing act, and I know I wouldn't be very good at it.

Like you, I've had posts removed and warnings issued. Luckily these are few and far between, and in my case I've agreed with everything the mod said. Isn't there a way to report the mod if you aren't satisfied with their decision? I think that would be the way to handle things.

Thanks for your awesome post, star for you for catching my goof!

Originally posted by Revealation
reply to post by Anon77

 

That's the point I was trying to make to schuyler

"Trying" is the operative word here. I'm actually amazed this thread is alive. ATS has shown remarkable tolerance with complainer threads such as these. "Free speech" is one of the most mis-understood concepts ever. The concept is very clear in the Bill of Rights. It prevents the government, specifically and only the Federal government, from curtailing your right to free speech in a public forum, i.e.: On the proverbial soapbox in a city park. It has absolutely nothing to do with a private venue such as ATS. Nothing.

Now, you may say that regardless that the law does not apply to ATS, nevertheless stifling free speech is detrimental to the site. I can understand that point of view. Indeed, heavy-handed moderation can drive people away. That begs the question, though. What is heavy-handed moderation? Further, how does ATS compare to other similar sites with regards to moderation? And I suppose one must throw in a size issue here because moderating a busy site like ATS is much different than moderating a site like The Paracast, which relatively speaking, is very lightly visited. There are even a few sites started by banned ATS members. I think collectively they have at least a dozen users.

Having visited several conspiracy sites over the years my view is that ATS is middle-of-the-road in terms of moderation standards. There are sites out there that will ban you for looking cross-eyed. And there are sites where absolutely anything goes. Many of those other sites are personality-driven. They are run by one or two guys in accordance with whatever they see fit to do. If they don't like your attitude, they ban you. Most of us know which sites these are.

ATS is not personality-driven. It's too big and busy for that. It has several dozen moderators who are required to follow Terms & Conditions, which is more or less the law of the land at ATS. In my opinion, it is pretty well done. In fact, it's being done better today than it was five years ago. There is a clear improvement. Moderators are much less heavy-handed than they used to be, partially because the nature of the site has changed. It used to be that if you got caught in some minor infraction, you'd get docked 10 points. Back then points were actually a form of currency. You could "buy" colored backgrounds for your avatar, for example, so docking you poits amounted to a fine. Today the site is much simpler and they don't do that sort of thing. Even docking you 1,000 points has no real affect on you if you are an established member.

In fact, I got into a serious fight here because ATS accused me of plagarism when I posted a review of a UFO book. In fact, I wrote what I posted, but some moderator decided it wan't my material. I went ballistic "to management" and even Springer got involved in the resulting discussion. Ultimately, I won, because I was right. They restored my post and apologized, but I had to stand up for myself. So, yeah, they make mistakes. That's a given anywhere.

Where I part company with people like Revelation and the OP is that I do not believe ATS is MY site or YOUR site at all. That's ludicrous. It belongs to the people who put up the money and the effort to run it. Although I've put a considerable amount of time into ATS, I have paid no money, and I do not have any claim on it, certainly no legal claim.

People such as Revelation like to claim it's THEIR site because they provided the "user generated content." However, one of the things you did when you became a member here and agreed to "abide by T&C" is that you "assigned" your content to ATS for non-exclusive use. In other words, legally speaking, you signed your rights to your posts away to ATS. When you post on ATS you legally GIVE your user-generated content to ATS. So claims that your posts are yours are simply not true and would not be upheld in a court of law. ATS owns them.

Now, of course there is the "Court of public opinion" also, and this is where Revelation & Co. like to hang their hat. And it's very true. They are completely correct.

Well, I don't see site statistics getting any lower, do you? I see no mass exodus of users. The people who do leave are ones I'd rather see gone, frankly. Seems to me they are insanely busy. That's the product of a successful site. I know it's a drag to realize nobody cares if you leave or not, but that is your only option here. Calling ATS a "police state" is laughable and has no credibility at all. It just shows ignorance. It reminds me of a two-year old saying, "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine and if I don't get my way I'm going to throw a tantrum and stomp my feet and cry bloody murder."

Here's your hat. Here's your coat. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.