The Fine Tuned Universe - affirms and confirms the Creator's existence! No?

reply to post by MrXYZ


And now folks, I present to you, a perfect example of prophecy coming true: Proclaiming to be wise, they have become fools.

That is all.

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Argument from complexity...again

It's a typical fallacy...one you keep on using in most of your threads

Of course it's a fallacy to you because you don't accept that the Universe is Highly Fine Tuned.

Furthermore since you have no concept of what a complex system is thus it's fallacy. It's like showing showing an iphone to a swine or a dog. Since they have no concept of how complex the iphone is thus it's nothing to them.

In other words, a highly fine tuned system like the Universe is a fallacy to you. Am i right?

Unless you wanna change your mind.

tc

I'm talking about arguments from fallacy...the ones you keep on using over and over again. Here's the explanation of why you are WRONG.

You can't just imply god every time something is complex ("fine tuned"). In ancient times they did that with diseases, comets, the sun going "up and down", and so on...

Not sure what else to say, it's a FACT that you are using an argument that's nonsense

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

And now folks, I present to you, a perfect example of prophecy coming true: Proclaiming to be wise, they have become fools.

That is all.

In other words, the best you can come up with is an ad hominem attack

How very "Christian" of you

I feel compassion for them, because I know the world is a very cold, brutal, lonely and depressing place when you are without God (I was an atheist the first 19 years of my life)

Great if your belief gives you strength, but you're talking out of your ass. I got a ton of good friends, am healthy, happy, a good guy...and generally live a very happy life, WITHOUT pretending fairies exist.

Most human beings see what they want to see in complex systems, if they want to see the work of an omniscient creator they will. This subject may be debated ad nauseum, but at the end of the day it is simply the opinion of some religious believers that the universe was 'created' and nothing else, there is zero evidence to support this assertion.

Imposing a belief system upon what we observe around us is a human trait, however, when objective and unbiased examination is applied, when we shuck off the anthropocentric shackles of superstition and imagination, the observable universe reveals it's true majesty. The limited perspective our human minds grant us makes it difficult to comprehend the complex immensity of the universe, therefore some will scramble for an explanation that sits with their views on the nature of reality, as expected.

Whether there is a creator or not is simply a matter of opinion period, and I'll be honest, the people who hold that there is a creator are usually religious types, and the terms 'unbiased', 'rational' and 'objective' do not apply to these people.

reply to post by MrXYZ


See, the thing is, I don't believe in fairies.

I believe in the Creator of the Universe, the one who created me, and you.

MrXYZ - it does not matter whether you believe in Him or not, it doesn't make Him go away. If an uneducated person claims gravity does not exist, and goes to jump off a cliff to prove a point, I am going to stand back and watch and shake my head at their ignorance (and probably beg and plead and try to explain why it DOES exist). Same goes for fools like Neil Tyson.

He is so oblivious and so blinded by his own pride and arrogance, that all I can do is watch the video and shake my head in awe of his ignorance...

I'm not going to waste my time countering all of his arguments, because it's not going to change your mind anyways MrXYZ. I have seen your posts here and I have seen you bury your head in the sand more than once. I'm afraid nothing short of God Almighty Himself will change your heart at this point..... I'll pray for you.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


There is zero evidence this universe was created? Really now?

So, if I show you my laptop, or my clothes, or my TV, or any other material object, and I ask you how it came to be, you're going to tell me it just randomly came into existence? Oh wait, I know, maybe my laptop evolved from my super nintendo!

Oh my oh my, your genius is too much for my small close minded religious brain to handle!!!!

reply to post by Iason321


You talk about something like gravity. Yet it was people like you who persecuted early scientists when, for example they tried to show that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around etc. It was people like you that forced many men of learning to hide their findings from your dogma, your absolutist view of the nature of the universe. Monotheism is the scourge of humanity.

reply to post by Iason321

See, the thing is, I don't believe in fairies.

I believe in the Creator of the Universe, the one who created me, and you.

And just like some people believe in feries based on stories, you do the exact same when it comes to god. Both of you don't require objective evidence for your belief.

MrXYZ - it does not matter whether you believe in Him or not, it doesn't make Him go away. If an uneducated person claims gravity does not exist, and goes to jump off a cliff to prove a point, I am going to stand back and watch and shake my head at their ignorance (and probably beg and plead and try to explain why it DOES exist). Same goes for fools like Neil Tyson.

I or scientists don't want "god to go away", we're merely stating that there is ZERO objective evidence suggesting he/she/it/they exist.

He is so oblivious and so blinded by his own pride and arrogance, that all I can do is watch the video and shake my head in awe of his ignorance...

Or you could provide objective evidence to support your claim instead of looking silly

I'm not going to waste my time countering all of his arguments, because it's not going to change your mind anyways MrXYZ.

What do you mean by "all of his arguments"? You haven't countered a single one of his arguments...probably because you can't.

I have seen your posts here and I have seen you bury your head in the sand more than once. I'm afraid nothing short of God Almighty Himself will change your heart at this point..... I'll pray for you.

Let me save you the time

Go spend time with friends and family instead, much more productive

reply to post by seabhac-rua


People like me who persecute people?

I have never persecuted anyone in my life, I have never fought or maimed or tortured or killed anyone over my religious ideologies, and I'd take serous offense to anyone who did.

As I said, I regularly have atheists, buddhists, hindus, muslims, spiritual satanists, and everything in between into my home and offer food and lodging and friendly conversation.

I am not trying to Jihad anyone....

The scourge of humanity? Try the only thing truly GOOD about humanity. Christ is the Light of the world.

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

There is zero evidence this universe was created? Really now?

So, if I show you my laptop, or my clothes, or my TV, or any other material object, and I ask you how it came to be, you're going to tell me it just randomly came into existence? Oh wait, I know, maybe my laptop evolved from my super nintendo!

Oh my oh my, your genius is too much for my small close minded religious brain to handle!!!!

We have OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE and PROOF that a TV, clothes, and laptops are made by humans...but we have NONE when it comes to (a) god(s) and the earth.

Sorry if rationality/logic is too much to hand for your "close minded religious brain"

reply to post by MrXYZ


MrXYZ, there will NEVER be that objective empirical evidence that you and the scientific community so desperately long for my man! It ALL boils down to faith!

Personally for me, it's much easier to place my faith in God/Jesus, than it is to place it in scientists who have only walked the earth for ~30-60 years and think they know every last mystery of creation and being...that's too hard of a pill for me to swallow now that I am educated in theology. When I was spiritually ignorant and discerned, it was easy for me to not believe in God. Now that I am educated, it's impossible to lose my belief....

reply to post by Iason321


Read some history you fool. Your skewed views, your objections to rationality, your hypocrisy are all the products of a psychological malaise you call 'faith'.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Your rational / logic escapes me just as much as mine does you....

How can somebody believe that every last stinkin material object on earth has a creator, and every single human being walking earth has a creator......yet all these creators that create, lack a creator themselves? Makes no sense to me....

MrXYZ, if you lived near me I would invite you to my home for dinner, so we could go back and forth on this....I feel like you would be an interesting person to debate with

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Objections to rationality? I object to that ration! Cite specific examples

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Objections to rationality? I object to that ration! Cite specific examples

Your whole stance on this subject is an objection to rationality. How is it rational to believe the universe was created with absolutely no evidence, your illogical arguments prove nothing other than the fact that you are entrenched in your dogma. I never said there was not a creator, I said there is no proof. Believing in a creator because of an archaic book, which was written, compiled, edited, re-edited by men a long time ago, is in itself an objection to rationality. A book, by the way, that if everyone had adhered to its literal interpretation, as many christians would like, then you would not have your laptop or TV. You'd be living in the f**king dark ages.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Many of the greatest minds in science have been Christians. Maybe YOU are the one who needs to study some? The men who wrote the Bible were the most brilliant men to walk the earth...

IGregory Beale, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society
Craig Blomberg, New Testament scholar at Denver Seminary, author of How Wide the Divide? An Evangelical and a Mormon in Conversation
William Lane Craig, professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology, author of The Kalam Cosmological Argument
Millard Erickson, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society
Sinclair Ferguson, former editor of Banner of Truth Trust
John Frame, theologian noted for his work in epistemology and presuppositional apologetics, author of The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God
Norman Geisler, co-founder of Southern Evangelical Seminary, co-author of General Introduction to the Bible
Graeme Goldsworthy, Australian Anglican theologian
Wayne Grudem, co-founder of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, author of Systematic Theology
Gary Habermas, author, lecturer, and debater on the topic of the Resurrection of Jesus
Kenneth Kitchen, Egyptologist, author of On the Reliability of the Old Testament
Andreas Köstenberger, editor of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society
Richard Longenecker, professor of New Testament at McMaster Divinity College
John Warwick Montgomery, writer, lecturer and public debater in the field of Christian apologetics
J. P. Moreland, professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology
Thomas C. Oden, father of Paleo-Orthodoxy; theologian associated with Drew University in New Jersey
J. I. Packer, theological editor for the English Standard Version, author of Knowing God
Andrew Purves, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Alvin Plantinga, University of Notre Dame, philosopher, Warrant and Christian Belief
Moisés Silva, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society
R. C. Sproul, Reformed theologian, founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries
John Stott, former Rector of All Souls Church, Langham Place
Miroslav Volf, professor at Yale Divinity School
Stephen H. Webb, professor at Wabash College
Nicholas Wolterstorff, professor emeritus of philosophical theology, and Fellow of Berkeley College (Yale); author, Lament for a Son
Edwin M. Yamauchi, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society
Ravi Zacharias, apologist, autho



There's just a very, very, very tiny list of some BRILLIANT Christians. Any of whom I would say would make the most respected atheists (Dawkins and Hitchens come to mind) look like the fools they are.

You are not convincing anyone God doesn't exist. You are only convincing people you are ignorant and spiritually discerned.

God bless you on this beautiful Resurrection day, that day Jesus died for YOU to be able to say He doesn't exist!

and one quick edit: Whoa whoa whoa, backup, literal interpretation? Who said I believed every word of the Bible literally? There are entire books of the Bible that are almost 100% Allegorical works... (Genesis comes to mind...)

Here you go,

Many skeptics believe that the Bible has been drastically changed over the centuries. In reality, the Bible has been translated into a number of different languages (first Latin, then English and other languages, see History of the Bible). However, the ancient manuscripts (written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) have been reliably copied over the centuries - with very few alterations.
Old Testament

How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.
New Testament

There are tens of thousands of manuscripts from the New Testament, in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).

Probably no historical record has been more scoffed at than the Bible. However, the facts show that if it weren't a book of religion and it had only recently discovered by archaeologists, it would be proclaimed the most significant find in all history. For, its details as to family lines, lands of occupation, life spans, and events should provide positive proof to even the most skeptical observers that its accounts are genuine and accurate, because no one would go into such minute detail if they were simply creating a forged document. Oh, they could if they wished, but that would require a high level of sophistication and some very dark motives.

Take for example, the genealogies found at Genesis 4:17-5:31, 10:1-31, 11:10-32, 14:1-8, 21:32, 22:20-24, 25:1-4 & 12-19, 26:34, 28:6-19, 36:1-4 & 9-43, 38:1-5, 46:8-27, 48:7, Numbers 1:1-42, 2:5-32, 26:12-60, and 27:1, just to start with. The details in these accounts prove the Bible to be a compilation of accurate historical events, branding it as totally different from religious forgeries, such as The Book of Mormon.

Also, read the genealogies that start in First Chronicles and you'll find many names of ancient people who went on to found cities and countries that we're still familiar with today. Also, look at the long lists of names of people, then who their fathers were, who they descended from, the things they did, etc. – things that nobody would be interested in today – and ask, why would anyone make all of this up, and how could anyone fake so much detail? Also, realize that the names all meant something in Hebrew, so they weren't just a jumble of sounds.

Consider the fact that few would question the authenticity of the Tomb of King David (although the current location is questionable), since it is so well documented by known accurate historians, such as Josephus, for example. Yet, many critics claim that David may never have existed! And look at the meticulous records of King David, as can be found from 1 Chronicles 23 to the end of that book. Each person, where they were from, who they were related to, and what their positions were, are all listed in great detail.

Then consider the well-documented historical accounts of what happened when the king of Assyria attacked Judah during the time of King Hezekiah, then compare those details to what is found in Second Chronicles 32. Also notice that the Pharaoh (Necho) who fought against Israel just before the destruction of Judah by Babylon (2 Kings 23:29), is well known and documented in history (see Necho II).

As for Moses and the Exodus; consider the detailed record of the travels of Israel from their place of departure from Egypt until they entered the Promised Land, as found at Numbers Chapter 33. Why, every little town that they traveled past, the directions they went, how long they stayed in each place, and the geography of the land is covered in minute detail!

Then look at the writings of Luke (Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts) in this Bible, and click on the dozens of links which lead to historically-proven references to the names, the cities, the titles, and even the specific homes (including pictures) of the people and places mentioned there… such detailed and proven documention is virtually unparalleled in other ancient writings!

For a fact, the Bible is a vast wealth and storehouse of the history of ancient peoples, which through ignorance and prejudice goes unexplored by many. Consider, for example, the records of the peoples and the trade goods they supplied to the Mediterranean trade port of Tyre in the Seventh Century B.C.E., as found in the Twenty-seventh Chapter of the Bible book of Ezekiel. Where else can such valuable records be found?
Recent Archeological Discoveries

Why, some say that the 'Old Testament' was written more than a thousand years later than its events claim, and that the 'New Testament' and its accounts about Jesus were written almost three-hundred years after he walked the earth. But although modern archeologists have proven such claims (which originated in the mid-1800s) false, college professors continue to teach them to their philosophy classes throughout the world, and gullible students continue to believe them and pass them on.

Notice, for example, that the oldest Bible text archeologists have discovered (of the Pentateuch) appears to date to the Seventh Century B.C.E., which is before the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon, and which dates to the time of the Solomon's Temple. Yet, until this discovery, many scholars were claiming that these texts were fabricated after the time of Jerusalem's reconstruction, and that there may have been no such Temple. However, Bible critics are still arguing about this today, despite the archaeological finds!

Also, many have claimed that there was no King David, and that Jerusalem was just a backwater town during the time attributed to his reign. But, recent archeological discoveries at Tel Dan (northern Palestine) have unco

Here's just some more....I'm sure none of the "bright" atheists here will actually read everything I'm posting....but you can't say I didn't try to educate them.

When Bible history and descriptions clash with secular history and descriptions, most assume that the Bible is wrong… once again. But is that really the case? Take for example, the Bible's description of Darius, the king of the Medes. He was mentioned at Ezra 4:5 as being a contemporary of of the Persian King Cyrus. However, secular historians tells us that there was no such king of the Medes. They say that Darius was in fact a Persian king, whose reign (522-BCE to 486-BCE) followed that of Cyrus. Which is view is correct?

Notice that the same account in Ezra (see Ezra 4:6, 7, 53, 54) agrees that there was also a Persian king named Darius, who reigned after Cyrus. However, it says that his reign came after that of Xerxes and his son ArtaXerxes. So, could modern historians and archeologists have confused Darius of Media with his much later Persian relative? We trust the account in Ezra, because no one questions the existence of Ezra and the period in which he lived (see en.wikipedia.org...), since he is the one that is credited with compiling most of the Sacred Scriptures of Israel (OT) that we have today.

But, what about Dairus, the king of the Medes? Not only do Jewish historians (such as Josephus) claim that there truly was a Darius, king of Media, but they say that he was an uncle of Cyrus on his mother's side. And the fact that Darius was a Mede and that he did rule the land of the Chaldeans is once again confirmed by two other Bible writers, Daniel (see Daniel 9:1) and Zechariah (see Zechariah 1:1). That this is not Darius the king of Persia who historians say succeeded Cyrus, is confirmed at Zechariah 7:1-6, where it shows that God's Temple had not yet been rebuilt, and it mentions the seventy years of Jewish captivity as something that was ongoing. Also, the Persian king was said to have lived sixty-three years, while the Bible shows that the Median king lived at least sixty-six years.

So, we have three contemporaries of Darius the king of Media, who tell us that there was such a man.

Last but not least:

Origin of the Bible - The Power of Prophecy
The origin of the Bible is God. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years. The claim of divine inspiration may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true. Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). God decided to use prophecy as His primary test of divine authorship, and an honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the supernatural origin of the Bible. Skeptics must ask themselves, "Would the gambling industry even exist if people could really tell the future?" Again, no other holy book comes even close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its credibility, authenticity and divine authorship.