The Fine Tuned Universe - affirms and confirms the Creator's existence! No?

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Barcs

 

How do you know that the planet's orbits are fine tuned by an external force and not just the result of the sun's gravity? Where do you see the fine tuning that can't happen naturally?


Please answer the questions, and don't resort to saying some nonsense like, "You aren't smart enough to notice it". Give me the evidence or admit its faith. It's not that hard.

Like I said - to a logical person this is a very easy question but to a close minded person - it's an impossible task to answer.


To prove my point -

the answer to your question is in the INFORMATION locked in the system itself. From the micro (DNA) to the macro (universe) - they contain so much information that we see - calculate and decipher - INFORMATION that are both FUNCTIONAL and with PURPOSE.

The CAUSE and the EFFECT.

Of course since there's no such thing as INFORMATION - let alone a purposeful one, thus to you my answer will not make much sense at all.

tc.

You didn't answer the question. You changed the subject from fine tuner to information theory and DNA.

Why do you keep calling me close minded? Because I trust science? I'm open minded to the possibility of a creator and as well as many other things. You are stuck on your one possibility, unwilling to waiver even slightly, which is the very definition of being close minded.

One last chance or you admit defeat by default:

How do you know that the planets' orbits are fine tuned by an external force and that they are not simply the result of the sun's gravity and distance from the sun? How do you know these things didn't arise naturally?

In fact, I'll even go further:

Name one single thing in the entire universe that has been proven to have arisen unnaturally via creation. I'm not looking for an opinion or an example of things humans make here.

See, I'm open minded to the idea of god, but there is a severe lack of evidence, that's all I'm saying. What you bring forth can help you justify your faith, sure. But it's not empirical evidence that confirms anything. It's an interesting idea.

reply to post by Barcs

You didn't answer the question. You changed the subject from fine tuner to information theory and DNA.

see what I mean - you can't understand the answer. but let me beak it down further for you:

For a system to run with precision - it needs to be fine-tuned to its optimum spec. The optimum spec IS the information possessed by the fine-tuner. Without the INFORMATION or knowledge of the system, the system will be useless. This true in the case of the DNA - the micro - as well as in the case of the Universe - the macro.

Without the DNA code - the cell will not function. Without the mathematical parameters that govern the universe - no life.

Why do you keep calling me close minded? Because I trust science?

because you will only "trust science" as long as it agrees with your belief system otherwise you will agree with the facts.

I'm open minded to the possibility of a creator and as well as many other things. You are stuck on your one possibility, unwilling to waiver even slightly, which is the very definition of being close minded.

One last chance or you admit defeat by default:

How do you know that the planets' orbits are fine tuned by an external force and that they are not simply the result of the sun's gravity and distance from the sun? How do you know these things didn't arise naturally?

In fact, I'll even go further:

Name one single thing in the entire universe that has been proven to have arisen unnaturally via creation. I'm not looking for an opinion or an example of things humans make here.

See, I'm open minded to the idea of god, but there is a severe lack of evidence, that's all I'm saying. What you bring forth can help you justify your faith, sure. But it's not empirical evidence that confirms anything. It's an interesting idea.

What open minded?

If you can't accept that the Universe is Fine-Tuned, how are you "open minded to the idea of god" a creator?

It doesn't make sense.

Since you don't believe that the following forces exists as the result of Fine-Tuning, how can you be open minded about a Creator?

1. Gravity—a very weak force on the level of atoms. It affects large objects—planets, stars, galaxies.

2. Electromagnetism—the key attracting force between protons and electrons, allowing molecules to form. Lightning is one evidence of its power.

3. Strong nuclear force—the force that glues protons and neutrons together in the nucleus of an atom.

4. Weak nuclear force—the force that governs the decay of radioactive elements and the efficient thermonuclear activity of the sun.

Since you can't and will not accept the following statement by scientists, how can you be "open minded to the idea of god" a creator?

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist):

"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist):

"Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy):

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist):

"There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

A fine-tuned universe require a Master Tuner as evidence by the things we know to be facts.

If you can't accept this then the opposite is to be concluded - a close loop mind.

I on the other hand is ready to accept that evolution theory is true if you can prove that life - even the most simplest single living cell on earth - can be created from non-living things (the very foundation of organic evolution[?]). Because if you can - then you've achieve the miracle of life.

Is that open minded enough for you?

tc.

You keep listing random facts about the universe, but there are no facts suggesting any of these things were created. You are showing measurements, and because science can't yet explain it, you think designer. That's faulty logic.

Originally posted by edmc^2
For a system to run with precision - it needs to be fine-tuned to its optimum spec. The optimum spec IS the information possessed by the fine-tuner. Without the INFORMATION or knowledge of the system, the system will be useless. This true in the case of the DNA - the micro - as well as in the case of the Universe - the macro.

What does this have to do with planetary orbits being fine tuned? I asked for your evidence, and once again you dodged the question. This will be my last response to you, so take it for what it's worth. The universe is certainly not useless, simply because there might not be knowledge of it. Also, you are committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, look it up. You throw the word system out there and talk about it running with optimum specs. That has NOTHING to do with the universe, only machinery made by man. The universe is clearly not a man made machine, so your comparison is not logical.

because you will only "trust science" as long as it agrees with your belief system otherwise you will agree with the facts.

Huh? Isn't that exactly how YOU interpret science?

If you can't accept that the Universe is Fine-Tuned, how are you "open minded to the idea of god" a creator?

Because your version of god is absurd. I'm open minded to the idea. That doesn't mean I believe it 100%, especially not the god of the bible. You understand what opened and closed minded means, right? Just because you have the all in or fold mentality about beliefs, doesn't mean I do. The universal measurements are the universal measurements.

A fine-tuned universe require a Master Tuner as evidence by the things we know to be facts.

Nope. If you can prove that, it would be more than your opinion, but alas you cannot.

I on the other hand is ready to accept that evolution theory is true if you can prove that life - even the most simplest single living cell on earth - can be created from non-living things (the very foundation of organic evolution[?]). Because if you can - then you've achieve the miracle of life.

Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non life. This HAS to have been explained to you already. You are essentially just preaching. You aren't providing anything of substance. I don't care if you want to believe that, but stop trying to say it's fact or that it confirms anything. That's it.

-Science out.

Originally posted by Barcs
You keep listing random facts about the universe, but there are no facts suggesting any of these things were created. You are showing measurements, and because science can't yet explain it, you think designer. That's faulty logic.

Originally posted by edmc^2
For a system to run with precision - it needs to be fine-tuned to its optimum spec. The optimum spec IS the information possessed by the fine-tuner. Without the INFORMATION or knowledge of the system, the system will be useless. This true in the case of the DNA - the micro - as well as in the case of the Universe - the macro.

What does this have to do with planetary orbits being fine tuned? I asked for your evidence, and once again you dodged the question. This will be my last response to you, so take it for what it's worth. The universe is certainly not useless, simply because there might not be knowledge of it. Also, you are committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, look it up. You throw the word system out there and talk about it running with optimum specs. That has NOTHING to do with the universe, only machinery made by man. The universe is clearly not a man made machine, so your comparison is not logical.

because you will only "trust science" as long as it agrees with your belief system otherwise you will agree with the facts.

Huh? Isn't that exactly how YOU interpret science?

If you can't accept that the Universe is Fine-Tuned, how are you "open minded to the idea of god" a creator?

Because your version of god is absurd. I'm open minded to the idea. That doesn't mean I believe it 100%, especially not the god of the bible. You understand what opened and closed minded means, right? Just because you have the all in or fold mentality about beliefs, doesn't mean I do. The universal measurements are the universal measurements.

A fine-tuned universe require a Master Tuner as evidence by the things we know to be facts.

Nope. If you can prove that, it would be more than your opinion, but alas you cannot.

I on the other hand is ready to accept that evolution theory is true if you can prove that life - even the most simplest single living cell on earth - can be created from non-living things (the very foundation of organic evolution[?]). Because if you can - then you've achieve the miracle of life.

Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non life. This HAS to have been explained to you already. You are essentially just preaching. You aren't providing anything of substance. I don't care if you want to believe that, but stop trying to say it's fact or that it confirms anything. That's it.

-Science out.

edit on 30-4-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

Yup... pseudo-science out - true science based on logical reasoning and common sense in.

The universe is certainly not useless, simply because there might not be knowledge of it

Who said the Universe is useless? It's marvelously designed for Life!

Of course, if it's NOT fine tuned to support life then it's useless. Fact is the parameters that exist in the Universe points to grand purpose by its designer and creator!

Can you ponder over the "intelligence manifest in nature"? I guess not.

“It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity; to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe, which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifest in nature.” -- Albert Eintein

Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non life.

Of course it does - that's what the close-minded champions of evolution theory had been preaching for a while now.

Remember the "primordial soup"? Without this organic "primordial soup" of the past - will organic evolution exist? I think not.

Remember the "replicators" from the "selfish gene"? The "selfish gene" that spontaneously arose from the non-living chemicals in the "primordial soup"?

Don't tell me you've forgotten about these pseudo-scientifically imagined events that you subscribed to?

Oh well, like I said - truth will always prevail.


tc.

Originally posted by edmc^2
Yup... pseudo-science out - true science based on logical reasoning and common sense in.

So pseudo-science to you is backed by evidence, while true science is based on opinion. That's a riot.

Who said the Universe is useless? It's marvelously designed for Life!

You said, "Without the INFORMATION or knowledge of the system, the system will be useless." So before intelligent life in the universe that can measure things, it was useless?

Of course, if it's NOT fine tuned to support life then it's useless. Fact is the parameters that exist in the Universe points to grand purpose by its designer and creator!

No they don't. That's where your opinion has pointed you. I requested numerous time for you to back up what you are saying with facts and you can't do it. This is game over.

Can you ponder over the "intelligence manifest in nature"? I guess not.

Of course I can ponder over such things, however you are claiming it is proven, which is not the case at all. There's a big difference between acknowledging something as a possibility and asserting it as a fact.

Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non life.

Of course it does - that's what the close-minded champions of evolution theory had been preaching for a while now.

Remember the "primordial soup"? Without this organic "primordial soup" of the past - will organic evolution exist? I think not.

You are talking about ABIOGENESIS, so once again you fail to make a single logical point and even stay on topic. But this has been explained and you choose to dishonestly ignore it, just like the experiments that have replicated stages of abiogenesis.

Thread over. You have failed completely to make a single logical point or factual statement regarding your theory. I guess ignorance is bliss. Good luck in your preaching. Hopefully you'll find somebody with a low enough IQ to fall for what you are saying.

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by edmc^2
Yup... pseudo-science out - true science based on logical reasoning and common sense in.

So pseudo-science to you is backed by evidence, while true science is based on opinion. That's a riot.

Who said the Universe is useless? It's marvelously designed for Life!

You said, "Without the INFORMATION or knowledge of the system, the system will be useless." So before intelligent life in the universe that can measure things, it was useless?

Of course, if it's NOT fine tuned to support life then it's useless. Fact is the parameters that exist in the Universe points to grand purpose by its designer and creator!

No they don't. That's where your opinion has pointed you. I requested numerous time for you to back up what you are saying with facts and you can't do it. This is game over.

Can you ponder over the "intelligence manifest in nature"? I guess not.

Of course I can ponder over such things, however you are claiming it is proven, which is not the case at all. There's a big difference between acknowledging something as a possibility and asserting it as a fact.

Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non life.

Of course it does - that's what the close-minded champions of evolution theory had been preaching for a while now.

Remember the "primordial soup"? Without this organic "primordial soup" of the past - will organic evolution exist? I think not.

You are talking about ABIOGENESIS, so once again you fail to make a single logical point and even stay on topic. But this has been explained and you choose to dishonestly ignore it, just like the experiments that have replicated stages of abiogenesis.

Thread over. You have failed completely to make a single logical point or factual statement regarding your theory. I guess ignorance is bliss. Good luck in your preaching. Hopefully you'll find somebody with a low enough IQ to fall for what you are saying.

Yeahh...the thread was already over for you a while back but you keep coming back.

Then you said

...That's it. -Science out.

'N I thought that was it.

Then on this post you said:

Thread over.

Like I said - without logic and common sense one can't prevail against the truth.

Just like evolution theory - without a foundation it's nonsense. Just like a design without a designer it's illogical.

But let me end the thread for you this way:

“. . .Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

tc.