The Fine Tuned Universe - affirms and confirms the Creator's existence! No?

The Awesome Fine Tuned Universe created by an intelligent and loving God!

Every time I think about this matter it always amazes me why and how seemingly "intelligent" people can come to a conclusion that such AWESOME grandeur, moving harmoniously with split-second timing does not require a Maker? When presented scientific facts in support of a Creator, their mind somehow crumbles, becomes illogical and can't see the logical conclusion behind the obvious. They can't go or will NOT go beyond the obvious but will instead say "we don't know" and to say otherwise (to them) "is hubris".

So evidence such as shown in the short video below (even though scientific) is attributed to unscientific chance event.


Yet the same people when shown a small piece of sharp flint shaped like an arrowhead convinces them that it was designed by man as an arrow or spear. They go ooh--aah and say, look at that! What a fine tool designed for hunting! It shows the creativity of "our ancestors the brute 'cave men'".

Is it fatuity or lack of education? It can't be because most will claim to be scientifically minded. Most will show their impressive and extensive knowledge on the subject. But why can't they see the beyond obvious? I don't know about you but imho - close-mindedness is one of the obvious reasons.

I say close-mindedness for the simple fact that a flint arrowhead requires a maker but a highly fine-tuned universe does not. Why? Because their pre-supposition or I might add desire has already determined the outcome.

Case in point (out of hundreds):

"The Symbiotic Universe" by George Greenstein, professor of astronomy and cosmology.

I can't find an eform of the book so here's a quick synopsis link of the book:

" The Symbiotic Universe: Life and Mind in the Cosmos
by George Greenstein
New York: William Morrow and Company, 1988

George Greenstein, professor of astronomy at Amherst College, believes we are faced with a mystery, and one of immense significance. In his fascinating new book, The Symbiotic Universe, he argues that our existence, and indeed that of every other form of life, is an utterly astonishing thing. The deeper one looks, the more surprising it becomes that life ever arose in the cosmos. For in fact our existence depends on a network of unlikely circumstances, a remarkable series of coincidences. That they occurred at all is testimony that ours is fundamentally a universe of life. In looking for an explanation, Professor Greenstein begins with an insight suggested by the theory of quantum mechanics. He proposes that in the fitness of the cosmos for life, we are witnessing the effects of a gigantic symbiosis– a symbiosis between the physical universes on the one hand and life on the other. Between these two there is a union, a great metaphysical dance by which each supports the other. How did it come to pass that against all odds the cosmos succeeded in bringing forth life? It had to –in order to exist.

innovationwatch.com...

Here's a longer review of the book.

www.eetimes.com...

In short Prof. Greenstein states that "The Symbiotic Universe" is governed by physical constants. Some of these constants are so fine-tuned that if they (he states) were off to the very slightest degree, the universe will not / can't exist. He also stated that without these fine-tuned constants life will not be possible.

The more he dug into his research Prof. Greenstein can't help but state the obvious and admitted the following:

***

“So many coincidences! The more I read, the more I became convinced that such ‘coincidences’ could hardly have happened by chance. But as this conviction grew, something else grew as well. Even now it is difficult to express this ‘something’ in words. It was an intense revulsion, and at times it was almost physical in nature. I would positively squirm with discomfort..."

So overwhelming the obvious ("coincidences"), so repulsive they are that the Prof. was confronted to ask the questions:

"Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Then the bombshell, he concluded:

“I also believe that reference to God will never suffice to explain a single one of these discoveries. God is not an explanation."

Why not?

Like I said - imho - close-mindedness for the simple fact that a flint arrowhead required a maker but a highly fine-tuned universe doesn't. The other reasons - no guts to admit the obvious conclusion because to do so will not only destroy a long held pre-conceived belief but suffer the consequences of being proven wrong and excommunicated from atheistic community.

Anything changed today?

What's your take?

tc.



Note:
***long quote and will not fit here so the short quotes above are provided to quickly highlight the illogic of some. If you have access to the book please go to pages 25-28 of the book before you start accusing me of misquoting or quote mining.
Quoted from "Greenstein G., "The Symbiotic Universe: Life and Mind in the Cosmos," William Morrow & Co: New York NY, 1988,pp 25-28"

reply to post by edmc^2


I understand your point and even though I disagree I have to admit that it is tempting to believe the way you do. However, I have a serious problem with just assuming it is a loving entity that has done it and that he is a God and not just a more powerful, longer lived entity then we are.

Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I understand your point and even though I disagree I have to admit that it is tempting to believe the way you do. However, I have a serious problem with just assuming it is a loving entity that has done it and that he is a God and not just a more powerful, longer lived entity then we are.

It's not an assumption friend but based on facts evidence by observation.

Case in point - location of the planet earth.

Why do they call it the "Goldilocks Zone"?

Is it just by coincidence that we're in this specific zone?

Consider also the neighboring planets and Galaxies - did they just came to be there or were they strategically placed there? For what reason?

Any idea?

tc.

This arguement is one that turns right around, and shows how un-designed for life this universe it. How can anyone in support of a Creator want to draw attention to how well the universe supports life? It doesn't, at all, besides in the tiniest, nearly invisible, sliver of space where we are.

Originally posted by edmc^2
Why do they call it the "Goldilocks Zone"?

Is it just by coincidence that we're in this specific zone?

Who, who says it's a coincidence? Absolutely no one. Life arises in places that can sustain life? How is that coincidental? Also, it's "Goldilocks Zones", plural, because there's plenty of them, and likely life in many of the other ones as well.

reply to post by edmc^2


The universe is an enigma for sure. Were it not for the Bible, we would have no idea that it does indeed have an origin connected to consciousness. One very simple fact extracted from the Bible is the tipping point as far as I am concerned. This one little bit of knowledge from the Bible's symbolism is enough to define the entire story as accurate and from God. Here it is:

Genesis says this from the beginning. Man would be tempted to use the one fruit God says not to use. He called it the fruit of knowledge. He then called the fruit from the tree of life to be something that would allow mankind to live forever if manipulated. Until today, we would have no idea what these two fruits are. Were it not for John on an island prison, we would lack a 2000 year old clue as a key for discovery. He said that the mark of this fallen system of knowledge would be 666. From here, we can now define the rest. DNA is the fruit of the Tree of Life. Carbon is the fruit of knowledge (Technology).

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e or of mankind] That number is 666.

Carbon is the mark of mankind. It has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. WOW! Now we have the key to the symbols. Carbon is the fruit of knowledge and the ability to construct fuel and technology. Our system of government and commerce is tied to the number. We will soon die by its use. Or will we?

Matthew 24

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Again, the Bible reveals more than the men should have known at the time. There is a hidden hand behind the words. We also witness history before it happens.

Then, when you examine the linguistics! Let's look at just two words. WORD and WORLD. The L is a Lamed. Lamed is the ancient Hebrew pictograph of the shepherd's crook that leads the sheep. Can we find God in the Hebrew?

YES WE CAN. LINK

Here are all the relevant evidence topics I did on ATS while I was Superiored - LINK

Want more? Follow the link in my signature.

If you want to argue that god created the universe then even the staunchest atheist will admit they are agnostic. You cannot know god doesn't exist any more than you can know that it does.

My problem is when people say how can you see all these miracles and not believe that there is a God!? But they mean the god of their specific holy book or belief system.

It's obvious to me that there is a God. It's also obvious to me he doesn't write books.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


The same Neil Degrasse that did that video also appears in this video. Science is a child that is full of his own early knowledge, yet lacks the wisdom to see the larger picture. The larger picture emerges, even with the very images produced by those who disbelieve. The larger picture is a divine Creator. Rational minds would never discount the possibility if they were honestly looking for truth. Truth emerges, even when presented in counterfeit. We're all connected straight to our source. Nothing rises above its source, but flows from it. If you think the Sun and Moon are our source, how is it we are greater than our source? Again, a rational mind sees beyond the bias of fear. I am a speck on a planet, yet God loves me individually. He knows the number of hairs on my head.

Luke 12 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight Rational minds would never discount the possibility if they were honestly looking for truth

Rational Minds also don't make baseless assumptions just because something's possible.

Originally posted by EnochWasRightThe larger picture is a divine Creator.

Such as this. As I've illustrated, the argument that the Universe is Finely Tuned for life(Which maybe would point to a picture of a Creator) is bunk(And therefore is not something that can be interpreted as evidence for a creator.)

~
I know you're the type to take things done by known scientists(Such as the We're all connected video), and extrapolate things out of it that none of the people who were a part of would ever agree with. I'm not gonna go into all you're ridiculous extrapolations. They're both irrelevant to the topics Fine Tuned Universe argument, and overall redundant. Save those for your own topics, where others will address them.

When presented scientific facts in support of a Creator, their mind somehow crumbles

You mean the fact that 99.99999% of the universe is completely uninhabitable by people???

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by EnochWasRight Rational minds would never discount the possibility if they were honestly looking for truth

Rational Minds also don't make baseless assumptions just because something's possible.

Originally posted by EnochWasRightThe larger picture is a divine Creator.

Such as this. As I've illustrated, the argument that the Universe is Finely Tuned for life(Which maybe would point to a picture of a Creator) is bunk(And therefore is not something that can be interpreted as evidence for a creator.)

~
I know you're the type to take things done by known scientists(Such as the We're all connected video), and extrapolate things out of it that none of the people who were a part of would ever agree with. I'm not gonna go into all you're ridiculous extrapolations. They're both irrelevant to the topics Fine Tuned Universe argument, and overall redundant. Save those for your own topics, where others will address them.

You make statements above lacking a shred of evidence from science to back your claims. My posts always list evidence. Your evidence is the word "bunk." Care to back that with some science. I say the universe is tuned because there are laws that provide a stable reality of Time, Space, Matter and Energy. Science merely points to the fact that it is so. This is hardly evidence against a creator. As our rational gene would express, it is the very evidence for the digital nature of the universe. The LATEST science backs me 100% on the fact that the Bible stated the case correctly. We are created inside an image of Time, Space, Matter and Energy in movement. As science so kindly points out, entropy is caused by the transition of information in a space. Leonard Sussind demonstrates in the video below, YET GOD GOT THERE FIRST IN THE BIBLE.

Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The last time I checked, a WORD is information.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

What I have provided here is two views from differing perspectives and opposite frames of reference. I use Science to verify what is stated in the Bible. Your evidence so far is the word 'Bunk'. Care to elaborate?

Most of the matter is burning in nuclear explosions in stars, how is that stable??

Originally posted by CB328

When presented scientific facts in support of a Creator, their mind somehow crumbles

You mean the fact that 99.99999% of the universe is completely uninhabitable by people???

Really! Think again. Our inheritance is the universe. Science now knows that the universe could be teaming with life. There are planets around nearly all stars. It's called the kingdom of God.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

The universe is our inheritance. There are families, principalities and powers in the universe. Read about it in the Bible.

Ephesians 3

10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

Did you catch that? Families in Heaven. In the Bible, Heaven is always noted as the place above the Earth. The Earth is symbolically seen as Egypt. We are scheduled to exodus from Egypt to the promised land. We can't leave until we pass through the iron smelting furnace of trials and tribulations here. We must learn why love is the only law. Egypt is the place to learn by experience.

Revelation 21

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Again, why do we need a new Heaven and Earth? We took the fruit of knowledge (Carbon 6 protons, 6 electrons, 6 neutrons) and destroyed the garden. We inherited a garden and left it a field of burning and toxic weeds.

Genesis is the story of our journey to learn why God's fruit is of higher value than what we can create from lack of wisdom and knowledge. Can you really choose the version science dishes out over this? Which seems more realistic as we float through a universe on a ball of matter? Be rational.

reply to post by edmc^2


The video does not show evidence, it expands on theory.

The difference between those who see the "fine tuned" nature of the universe as evidence if an intelligent creator of the universe and the "fine tuned" construction of an ancient arrowhead created by an intelligent creator of arrowheads is that we can trace the history of that arrowhead backwards from relatively recent ancestors of those ancient creators. We can reverse engineer that arrowhead, in a sense, and literally, physically trace it's development.

On the other hand, all theories of an intelligent creator of life and the universe are exactly that, theories. And not only that, they are theories that not only do not have any actual, physical, traceable, qualitative or quantitative evidence to back them up; they are also theories that simply will never have such evidence and will remain unprovable theories.

My problem with the idea of an intelligent creator of the universe is that the argument is that it is very similar to Anselm of Canterbury's Ontological Argument. Despite the lack of empirical evidence to support the a priori conclusion that the universe was intelligently designed, one concludes it must have been merely because we can conceive of an intelligent designer for it.

This is not scientific reasoning. And in science, not accepting or even acknowledging a theory that has no empirical evidence to back it up is not closed mindedness.

Science requires more than ego-centric rhetoric.

Life arose here because conditions here were sufficient enough to produce life.
We understand the universe not because the universe was designed for us to understand it but because we developed an understanding of it.
Every day we learn that we understand less about the universe than we thought we knew.
Every day we learn that we understand less about life and it's place in the universe than we thought we knew.

If we accept an ontoligical styled argument for the universe and life...what is the point of trying to further understand it?

reply to post by madhatr137

My problem with the idea of an intelligent creator of the universe is that the argument is that it is very similar to Anselm of Canterbury's Ontological Argument. Despite the lack of empirical evidence to support the a priori conclusion that the universe was intelligently designed, one concludes it must have been merely because we can conceive of an intelligent designer for it. This is not scientific reasoning. And in science, not accepting or even acknowledging a theory that has no empirical evidence to back it up is not closed mindedness.

Then again, a man in a cave, 2000 years ago, knew Carbon had 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. He further knew that God told us not to mess with the fruit of knowledge and life. How did Moses know to write about DNA and Carbon? Science cannot see with blind eyes. Sight requires a mechanism built by intelligence. Knowledge is good, but wisdom deciphers the knowledge for meaning and intent. No purpose acting from a design lacks intent. Intention is a hope. Intent is a designed outcome. The universe drips with intent.

Revelation 13

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

What did the Bible mean when it said the Veil was rent asunder? What is the veil?

Matthew 27:51

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.

It covered the holy place where God resides in the temple. We then find out from the NT that the temple was a symbol for our body. We also know we have a spirit. The veil keeps the outside from the inside. We must live by faith. The veil being torn is yet again another symbol. We now have the ability to see past the veil and look at God. Are you looking?

Be as skeptical as you want, but there is no way to deny that the Bible outlined our history before it happened fully. Deny all you want but you will soon face the conclusion of the story. It doesn't end well for those who are blinded by bias and pride.

Why do you suppose we are here wasting a perfectly good Friday night helping you see clearly? Love covers many sins. Love is patient and kind.

John 15

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by madhatr137

 

Then again, a man in a cave, 2000 years ago, knew Carbon had 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. He further knew that God told us not to mess with the fruit of knowledge and life. How did Moses know to write about DNA and Carbon?

You know, you've got no one convinced that Moses, or any other biblical writer exhibited any knowledge of Carbon, or DNA. I don't think anyone see's your reasoning in completely reinterpreting scripture to apply present knowledge, and then acting as if the scripture had that knowledge.

Also, Moses, if he existed at all, did not live "2000 years ago." Your wording implies you're talking about Moses there.

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by madhatr137

 

Then again, a man in a cave, 2000 years ago, knew Carbon had 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. He further knew that God told us not to mess with the fruit of knowledge and life. How did Moses know to write about DNA and Carbon?

You know, you've got no one convinced that Moses, or any other biblical writer exhibited any knowledge of Carbon, or DNA. I don't think anyone see's your reasoning in completely reinterpreting scripture to apply present knowledge, and then acting as if the scripture had that knowledge.

Also, Moses, if he existed at all, did not live "2000 years ago." Your wording implies you're talking about Moses there.

The man in the cave 2000 years ago was John in the first century.

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I understand your point and even though I disagree I have to admit that it is tempting to believe the way you do. However, I have a serious problem with just assuming it is a loving entity that has done it and that he is a God and not just a more powerful, longer lived entity then we are.

It's not an assumption friend but based on facts evidence by observation.

Case in point - location of the planet earth.

Why do they call it the "Goldilocks Zone"?

Is it just by coincidence that we're in this specific zone?

Consider also the neighboring planets and Galaxies - did they just came to be there or were they strategically placed there? For what reason?

Any idea?

tc.

edit on 6-4-2012 by edmc^2 because: put - place

yes it is just coincidence there also alot of planets outside the goldilocks zone and the neighboring planets and Galaxies dident just appear they formed by small things colliding and gaining gravity drawing other small things closer its actually quite simple

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to [url= by madhatr137[/url]

 

Then again, a man in a cave, 2000 years ago, knew Carbon had 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. He further knew that God told us not to mess with the fruit of knowledge and life. How did Moses know to write about DNA and Carbon?

You know, you've got no one convinced that Moses, or any other biblical writer exhibited any knowledge of Carbon, or DNA. I don't think anyone see's your reasoning in completely reinterpreting scripture to apply present knowledge, and then acting as if the scripture had that knowledge.

Also, Moses, if he existed at all, did not live "2000 years ago." Your wording implies you're talking about Moses there.

The man in the cave 2000 years ago was John in the first century.

Neither John or any of the anonymous biblical authors knew to wash their hands after taking a dump, and thought bird blood cured leprosy (house leprosy too; wall mould) .

But yurp Superiorenochwaswrong , they knew all about DNA and molecules didn't they.......

To the OP

A fine tuned universe? are you joking? its 99.999999999% instantly lethal to life

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to [url= by madhatr137[/url]

 

Then again, a man in a cave, 2000 years ago, knew Carbon had 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. He further knew that God told us not to mess with the fruit of knowledge and life. How did Moses know to write about DNA and Carbon?

The man in the cave 2000 years ago was John in the first century.

Neither John or any of the anonymous biblical authors knew to wash their hands after taking a dump, and thought bird blood cured leprosy (house leprosy too; wall mould) .

But yurp Superiorenochwaswrong , they knew all about DNA and molecules didn't they.......

To the OP

A fine tuned universe? are you joking? its 99.999999999% instantly lethal to life

edit on 7-4-2012 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)

You state this from incredulity with no references. I have provided references and solid evidence to back the claims. Where is your content? We hear your hollow words but see nothing beyond. If you want to be taken seriously, back your claims with quotes, scripture or science.