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The Fine Tuned Universe - affirms and confirms the Creator's existence! No?

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posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Firepac

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by edmc^2
 


I understand your point and even though I disagree I have to admit that it is tempting to believe the way you do. However, I have a serious problem with just assuming it is a loving entity that has done it and that he is a God and not just a more powerful, longer lived entity then we are.


It's not an assumption friend but based on facts evidence by observation.

Case in point - location of the planet earth.

Why do they call it the "Goldilocks Zone"?

Is it just by coincidence that we're in this specific zone?

Consider also the neighboring planets and Galaxies - did they just came to be there or were they strategically placed there? For what reason?

Any idea?

tc.
edit on 6-4-2012 by edmc^2 because: put - place


Mars is also located in the Goldilock Zone so what's your point?


Point is these huge planets in the "Goldilocks Zone" are there for a reason. They are there as protective buffers on incoming extra-terrestrial threats. They not only deflect but absorb dangerous objects.


Consider:

In their book "Rare Earth—Why Complex Life Is Uncommon in the Universe." by scientists Peter D. Ward and Donald Brownlee explains that:


“Asteroids and comets hit us but not excessively so, thanks to the presence of giant gas planets such as Jupiter beyond us,”


This means that our solar system is uniquely suited for life because of these giant outer planets. They not only a source of wonder but a source of protection!

Consider also their orbits - they are circular thus pose no GRAVITATIONAL threat to the innermost planets.

As for the planet Mars' role in the solar system - so far even the brightest scientist hasn't come up with one yet but it's also possible that's it also serve a protective buffer for the earth.

Who knows- maybe in the near future mankind will colonise it.

As for newly discovered solar systems like ours, it's unlikely that life exist because of the many variables inhospitable to life. One of which where the planets orbiting these systems would endanger similar planets like ours.

Point is - our planet with its neighbouring planets orbiting the solar system in the milky way galaxy located in the "Goldilocks Zone" in the entire known universe did not just got there by accident. All the variables to support life shows that they were fine-tuned to the precise amount. Something that coincidence or accident can't do.

It's only someone who refuse to see these facts will consider them as fallacy and I hope your not one.

tc




posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
reply to post by edmc^2
 


If you roll a D20 once, expecting a 5, you may have a coincidence. If you roll a D20 800 times, you'll inevitably get at least one five, and likely many more.

I know the odds of a planet being right for life is much lower than 1/20, but if every planet can be considered a roll, the massive universe, with more planets than we could ever imagine, is still out rolling the odds.

We see many planets in possible Goldilocks zones. We don't have the resources to know which ones have life on them, yet. However, the point still remains, we're not here by chance, accident, or design. We're here by the size of the universe stacking the odds so thoroughly in the favor of life appearing, that it'd be a crazy accident for life to not develop anywhere.


So you believe


we're not here by chance, accident,


great - we're in agreement but you also said we got here not -


"by design"
???


Did I missed something?

So which one is it then? Something made not by "chance" or "accident" is obviously designed.

Yet you confounded your confusion by saying that




We're here by the size of the universe stacking the odds so thoroughly in the favor of life appearing, that it'd be a crazy accident for life to not develop anywhere.



So is it by the stacking of the "odds" that's responsible for "a crazy accident for life to not develop anywhere"?

Is it by "accident" then that was responsible for the existence of life?

what are you saying my friend?

tc.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by edmc^2
Too bad you have no appreciation of true science, because if you do - you should be able to confirm and see what many great minds have already seen. That is, that the universe is governed by a highly precise and fine tuned laws. And that such fined tuned laws require precision planning and great thinking ability. An ability not produced by mere accident and chance but by a great mind - God.


I'm just tired of debating the same topic over and over in every single thread, which is basically yours and others' opinions. A finely tuned universe where life is so incredibly rare. That really makes sense for an "intelligent" designer. The problem is not my appreciation for science. I absolutely love science. The problem is your lack of understanding about science and what constitutes as objective evidence or proof. You cannot prove that the laws of the universe were made by some extra dimensional being. You cannot prove that RNA was designed and didn't emerge naturally. You can't prove a single thing you are talking about. It is your opinion about the universe. It is faith based.


To you this is nonsense because you've already convinced yourself that chance and accidents are the causal force.
No, I just don't put stake in things that lack objective evidence. That's your department.


Because to you such profound statement as:

“every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

is nonsense and doesn't mean a thing. You've already shown yourself to be incapable of logic and most of all common sense. Thus there's no evidence in the universe for someone who refuse to see the obvious.


Logic and science do not support your theory. I'm sorry but its true. No matter how much you are in awe of nature, and the complexity of DNA, and the laws of the universe (the way it is), there is not a single piece of evidence to suggest god exists or a process of design ever happened.

"The universe is the way it is. That totally proves design!!" That is essentially your entire basis for your argument. I'm just hoping that one day you'll acknowledge your faith as actual faith, and admit its just your opinion, instead of trying to preach to others about science and proof of god when this isn't even close.

edit on 8-4-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)


Like I said - since you lack logic and common sense you're not able to go beyond the obvious.

too bad there's more you can learn.

But at least you recognise that the Universe is Finely Tuned - which is part of my premise. Your issue is who fine tuned it. And you can't accept that someone fine tuned it because to do so will contradict your pre-supposed ideas / belief. That is it's impossible for someone to fine tune the universe because chance alone is responsible for it.

But ALL KNOWN scientific facts shows that nothing intelligent can come out from chance but the opposite is true. Intelligence begets intelligence - just like life begets life. These are the fundamental truths that you will never understand.

tc.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Argument from complexity...again


It's a typical fallacy...one you keep on using in most of your threads


Of course it's a fallacy to you because you don't accept that the Universe is Highly Fine Tuned.

Furthermore since you have no concept of what a complex system is thus it's fallacy. It's like showing showing an iphone to a swine or a dog. Since they have no concept of how complex the iphone is thus it's nothing to them.

In other words, a highly fine tuned system like the Universe is a fallacy to you. Am i right?

Unless you wanna change your mind.

tc



I'm talking about arguments from fallacy...the ones you keep on using over and over again. Here's the explanation of why you are WRONG.

You can't just imply god every time something is complex ("fine tuned"). In ancient times they did that with diseases, comets, the sun going "up and down", and so on...

Not sure what else to say, it's a FACT that you are using an argument that's nonsense


So do you agree then that the universe is finely tuned just like the precision watch is finely tuned?

tc



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by Iason321
 


The whole universe IS fine tuned for our existence... It's noones fault but your own if you fail to see it, and we ARE special, we are NOT insignificant. Keep telling yourself your life is pointless, you are insignificant, and the universe is a random mass of chaos and destruction, and I'll keep telling myself my life has meaning, that I am significant, and the universe is finely tuned for us..... Whatever makes you "happy".....

I don't think my life is pointless or insignificant. I don't believe the universe is mere chaos and destruction. This is your fantastical judgement concerning my views – views you cannot comprehend because they are rooted in an experience of life that you, trapped in a nasty little world of invisible powers and eternal judgements, cannot even begin to imagine.

Any reasonably insightful reader can see at once that your performance on this thread is motivated by nothing but your own religious doubts and fears. You are here to 'test' your faith – which means trying to reinforce it via the addictive chemical high you derive from confrontation with others on the subject. How is that working? Not too well, I suspect.

Addictions are hard to give up. But just imagine letting self-slavery and superstition slip from your shoulders, and being free. Just think – no more desperate forcing yourself to 'believe that you believe', no more anger, no more terror, no more resentment against a world whose reality is constantly dousing the fire of your aspiration to belief with the cold water of a reality you cannot deny. Imagine what it feels like to be free.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 



You do not know what you speak of.

This is not some fantasy I came up with in my own mind....I have had REAL world, REAL LIFE, FIRSTHAND encounters with the LORD.

You cannot convince someone who has had direct experiences of God that God does not exist.

As I've said, there is no putting the veil back down for me....it has been lifted, and I now see what most don't see and what so many refuse to believe (such as yourself)

EDIT: I'm glad to see you seem to have a good moral compass and are a civilized person and you value life...But you must realize that Atheism can be detrimental to the human psyche though, leading people to believe there is nothing more to life than this life, and making them act on carnal instincts much more often and leads to people losing sense of morals and values
edit on 4/9/2012 by Iason321 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Astyanax
 



You do not know what you speak of.

Neither do you because I've literally JUST got off the line from a direct encounter with the Lord (Zeus, right?) and He said that He has absolutely no recollection of having any encounter or experience with you.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by john_bmth
 


It depends.

Yeah, that's precisely my point, the believers take it upon themselves to decide what words of god are literal and which are figurative. Funny how the distinctions they make always happen to suite their own personal beliefs and prejudices.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by Iason321
 





This is not some fantasy I came up with in my own mind....I have had REAL world, REAL LIFE, FIRSTHAND encounters with the LORD.


So when you visit some jungle tribe in Papua New Guinea, and they tell you they have REAL LIFE encounters with the giant snake god and his monkey god wife...you simply go "of course you have, makes perfect sense...I believe you"?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


No, I would question them and wonder what kind of hallucinogens are in their area and what the local folklore is, and I would also look into what authority their "snake god or monkey god or whatever" has, and I would see if there were 2+ billion followers of those "gods", and I would also research if those "gods" have accurately predicted world events since the beginning of time and given us the entire history of humankind from A to Z.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 09:36 AM
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I’ve read many articles regarding this topic and they basically all come to the same conclusions. There are three possible explanations for the "finely tuned" Universe:

1. It is a simulation
2. There are multiple parallel Universes and ours happens to be perfect for the formation of Galaxies and Stars
3. God created it.
OK… maybe one more: All of the above.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by MrXYZ
 


No, I would question them and wonder what kind of hallucinogens are in their area and what the local folklore is, and I would also look into what authority their "snake god or monkey god or whatever" has, and I would see if there were 2+ billion followers of those "gods", and I would also research if those "gods" have accurately predicted world events since the beginning of time and given us the entire history of humankind from A to Z.



Well, it's not as if the bible has made a ton of accurate prophecies...there's TONS that are demonstrably wrong.

And this isn't a "majority wins" situation either. The only thing that counts is objective evidence, and neither you nor the jungle god people have any of that. The "first hand encounters" can be rationally explained...for example through a psychological condition that isn't even rare. Of course the entire thing is also supported by indoctrination through family and friends...or traumatic experiences that make the brain go into overdrive.

Muslims would argue you're wrong too, and so would Buddhists, and the majority of people on this planet. And just like you, they also don't have any credible objective evidence.

So given that most religions are mutually exclusive, and assuming that one is the "right one", billions of people believe in fairy tales...and you could be one of them.

That's why FACTS and OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE are so important!!



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


How about this then - since we cannot mutually agree on this, let us atleast agree to this - Christians ought to stop evangelizing so much in public (although I see no problem with having prayer posters or other things in public schools, or reading a Bible in school - I don't give atheists a hard time for reading Dawkins the God delusion, so why should atheists give us a hard time about reading our Bibles?), and Atheists should stop jamming there beliefs down Americas throat (with there God doesn't exist campaigns and other nonsense).

Seeing as how neither side can provide solid, objective, empircal evidence, when all's said and done, were both just spouting off our ideologies and beliefs and arguing over whos right and who's wrong...

What do you think?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by Iason321
 


How about this then - since we cannot mutually agree on this, let us atleast agree to this - Christians ought to stop evangelizing so much in public (although I see no problem with having prayer posters or other things in public schools, or reading a Bible in school - I don't give atheists a hard time for reading Dawkins the God delusion, so why should atheists give us a hard time about reading our Bibles?), and Atheists should stop jamming there beliefs down Americas throat (with there God doesn't exist campaigns and other nonsense).

Seeing as how neither side can provide solid, objective, empircal evidence, when all's said and done, were both just spouting off our ideologies and beliefs and arguing over whos right and who's wrong...

What do you think?

So atheists need to stop altogether but theists, Christians in particular, only need to tone it down? Even when you're trying to be conciliatory, you still think your particular belief system is somehow more valuable than atheists' lack of belief and should be given preferential treatment. How arrogant.

Fortunately we have a Constitution that even the theists sitting on the Supreme Court can agree guarantees that preferential treatment shouldn't be afforded to any religion by the government.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by MrXYZ
 


How about this then - since we cannot mutually agree on this, let us atleast agree to this - Christians ought to stop evangelizing so much in public (although I see no problem with having prayer posters or other things in public schools, or reading a Bible in school - I don't give atheists a hard time for reading Dawkins the God delusion, so why should atheists give us a hard time about reading our Bibles?), and Atheists should stop jamming there beliefs down Americas throat (with there God doesn't exist campaigns and other nonsense).

Seeing as how neither side can provide solid, objective, empircal evidence, when all's said and done, were both just spouting off our ideologies and beliefs and arguing over whos right and who's wrong...

What do you think?


I'm all for letting anyone believe what they want...as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or make citizens ignore facts. So if you want to be a Christian, fine...but if you rally to teach creationism as a valid alternative to evolution for example, then you'll have a problem with me. Why? Because your hypothesis isn't based on objective evidence, while evolution is.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by Blarneystoner
I’ve read many articles regarding this topic and they basically all come to the same conclusions. There are three possible explanations for the "finely tuned" Universe:

1. It is a simulation
2. There are multiple parallel Universes and ours happens to be perfect for the formation of Galaxies and Stars
3. God created it.
OK… maybe one more: All of the above.


1) It's not a simulation but the reality. We have so much scientific evidence that the Universe IS Fine Tuned to support life. Only those who are threatened by this fundamental truth are against it, thus they will stop at nothing to debunk it. Even if it means sacrificing their one ounce of credibility (on the matter).

2) Isn't it interesting that our own universe like you said "happens to be perfect for the formation of Galaxies and Stars" if such multiverse exists? Any idea why is that?

The only logical explanation is:

3) God created it.

To say otherwise takes more faith and a bending of facts to conform to pre-supposed ideas.


edit on 9-4-2012 by edmc^2 because: rephrase



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by edmc^2
 


As long as you realize you're stating a BELIEF rather than facts, truth, or real knowledge...because for that, you'd require objective evidence as backup, something you don't have



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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Another factoid about the Fine Tuned Universe!

The four fundamental forces come into play both in the great expanse of the universe and especially in the infinite smallness of atomic structures. It's like a cosmic dance, everything we see around us is involved. They are interconnected for ONE obvious purpose - TO SUPPORT LIFE!


Consider:

There are elements vital for life and are abundant in nature, particularly carbon, oxygen, and iron. Each of these elements could not exist were it not for the fine-tuning of the FOUR FORCES present in the universe. As mentioned on the outset (in the OP video) one force is gravity. Another is the electromagnetic force - if it were significantly weaker, electrons would not be held around the nucleus of an atom.

What's the significance of this?

Simply this - atoms could not combine to form molecules!

On the flip side, if this force were much stronger, electrons would be trapped on the nucleus of an atom. There could be no chemical reactions between atoms.

Which means NO Life.

So from this simple observation, it is clear that our existence and life depend on the fine-tuning of the electromagnetic force.

Here's another:

Consider the grand scale of things - that is, in cosmic scale:

As mentioned in the OP already, a slight difference in the electromagnetic force would affect the sun.

What's the significance of this fact?

Simple - alter the light reaching the earth, the result - photosynthesis in plants will be difficult if not impossible to occur. This in turn will affect water of its unique properties, which are vital for life.

So again, the precise tuning of the electromagnetic force determines whether we live or not.

Question is - without an outside force; can chance or accident alone achieve such powerful feat?

Can nature itself have the ability and the wisdom to fine tune the universe in such precision?

Again like i said - only someone who is close minded will say yes.

More factoids coming...



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by edmc^2
 


Your entire thread can be summarized like this:

"Science can't explain this, ergo god did it!!"

The track record of "god did it" is really really poor.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:49 PM
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Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. We all know that at some point in the future the Universe will come to an end and at some other point, considerably in advance from that but still not immediately pressing, the sun will explode. We feel there's plenty of time to worry about that, but on the other hand that's a very dangerous thing to say.

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