Christianity vs Atheism: The Facts

reply to post by wildtimes


Lets try it this way:

I do not believe in any of the religions I have investigated or are aware of – and since I am in no way a theist I must therefore be an atheist – right?


On the question is there a god – in the sense of some force or entity that started the universe/or was it a natural event:

I don’t know and I am not going to guess but I will wait until there is some kind of (real) evidence - and just to be clear I am very relaxed about not knowing and no I am not going to just accept someone else’s guess

So I have in no way just decided “there is NOTHING to be considered”
I just dismiss all current religious claims as not having met their burden of proof

reply to post by racasan


Perfect. We are in absolute agreement.

I thought prezbo's point was the semantics....

I don't know, I'm looking, I'm open to suggestions, and I have certainly NOT decided there is NOTHING. In fact, I think there is something that we all contain within..that connects us all....

so, does that make me a polytheist?

Perhaps We are a pantheon of 7-billion. Perhaps if We all united in one common goal, that goal would be achieved.

End the hatred, separation, division, economic disparity, master/slave, rich/poor, ethnic and cultural warfare....

None of Us is more, nor Less than a part of the Divine. If only we could embrace that and care for All of Us....
we might possible be doing something to make a difference. If we consider every other human to be part of the Divine family or Entity, with equal dignity, maybe there would be more harmony and concern for one another.

There are definitely novel occurrences going on as compared to the last, maybe couple of centuries...but that is NOTHING....in cosmic terms. As boncho pointed out above. ( and star boncho!)

At least now we have some understanding of Nature that was lacking 2,000 or 6,000 years ago (not to say that before that humanity knew even less...the more I learn about Ancient Civilizations, the more I wonder if they were ahead of us and the dreaded Pockyklipz has happened before...)

Originally posted by racasan
reply to [url= by wildtimes[/url]

 

Lets try it this way:

I do not believe in any of the religions I have investigated or are aware of – and since I am in no way a theist I must therefore be an atheist – right?


On the question is there a god – in the sense of some force or entity that started the universe/or was it a natural event:

I don’t know and I am not going to guess but I will wait until there is some kind of (real) evidence - and just to be clear I am very relaxed about not knowing and no I am not going to just accept someone else’s guess

So I have in no way just decided “there is NOTHING to be considered”
I just dismiss all current religious claims as not having met their burden of proof

“there is NOTHING to be considered” was WildTimes (incorrect) representation of an atheist, an atheist merely rejects the claims made by theists, and you do fit that description.

reply to post by Prezbo369

WildTimes (incorrect) representation of an atheist, an atheist merely rejects the claims made by theists, and you do fit that description.

Huh....
okay....
perhaps you can dissect the etymology of the word? Sorry if I'm misinterpreting it...

Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever - someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)
Adj. 1. atheist - related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"
atheistical, atheistic

a·the·ist   [ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Since the definition says one denies the EXISTENCE of a supreme being or beings, that would mean subjective to the idea of there BEING a supreme being or beings....it doesn't say anything about 'relative to claims made by theists'.

A person who has never heard of God or gods might come up with the notion all on his own, and thus be a theist.

Likewise, a person who has never heard of same might never even conceive of the possibility....atheist. Doesn't believe it. Whether or not that person has been exposed to "theist" thinking or not has nothing to do with it.

But okay...I don't want to argue it here....I consider myself a seeker.

reply to post by wildtimes


Well it looks like you are thinking about the sort of things I think about but I think the main difference is I start from here:

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams

reply to post by Prezbo369


Not following you old boy – I was trying to answer in what I thought of as the nature or ‘spirit’ of question

But just to be clear:
I have considered the theist claims and rejected them – but if a theist comes up with some new evidence I will consider it – so I am guessing that makes me an atheist but if you know something that I should consider then please let me know

Theism
in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism can be a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.[2][3] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe.


Deism
is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of an all-powerful creator. According to deists, the creator rarely, if ever, either intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe.


So what do you call someone who doesn’t believe in a personal and present god(s) and thinks there is no evidence for a creator god?

Originally posted by wildtimes

Since the definition says one denies the EXISTENCE of a supreme being or beings, that would mean subjective to the idea of there BEING a supreme being or beings....it doesn't say anything about 'relative to claims made by theists'.

‘>denies< the EXISTENCE of a…’
That ‘denies’ is the loaded word here

Let me put it this way – do you deny that Santa or the Easter bunny is real?

reply to post by racasan

Deism
is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of an all-powerful creator. According to deists, the creator rarely, if ever, either intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe.

I think there is something we don't quite comprehend; we have a feeling it's there....or might be there....but it defies human explanation. We are not equipped in our mortal bodies to get it...it takes our 'higher senses' to sometimes touch it...a fleeting awareness....or a momentary flicker of something "other-than" what we can feel with our five senses.

just because we can't really comprehend it doesn't negate its existence. Does that make sense?

reply to post by wildtimes


It does indeed.

Deism is valid...to a point. See, we ourselves can interfere in matters through a supernatural means. We can communicate with the energies in certain events, changing its flow and outcome. We just haven't discovered it yet.

So, technically, we could be...well, Meist

Or maybe polycredic. That one is pretty accurate.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

Originally posted by Starchild23
I will say it again...

You cannot always convince a man of the truth, but you can always make him believe a lie.

what lie... that we are not slaves?

Christ they should teach 3 classes of history in public schools I'm tellin ya!

stop thinking of your own personal individual please, we are never going to get to a 0.5g environment even!

Did you not stop to think before blaspheming our Lords name in vein before you made that post?

You know this is the religious forums and there are Christian members here. Please show some respect, unless you are only here to get a reaction out of people.

Thanks.

edit on 4-4-2012 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

Oh boy, sheep is trying to get its big sheep pants on!

Stop cramming your beliefs down the atheists' throats. You can stick with your fairytales.

They are all riddles...not meant to be taken literally.

Oh, and one more thing: Not only was the term never used by Jesus himself, but Christ was only applied to him centuries later.

Furthermore, next time you tell someone not to say GD it, remember: God is not His real name. The church changed it to prevent such... *ahem* blasphemy.

reply to post by David291

There is no evidence.

Math doesn't lie, and according to the chemistry and calculations using actual fossils as a point of reference, the math says that something had to have guided the process. Ironically, our physical and cognitive functions are way ahead of what it should be.

Additionally, the statistics of Earth shaping as it did, along with the rest of the galaxy, not to mention life on Earth, are minute to the point of sheer negligibility.

reply to post by wildtimes


Ah yes the old

are we just carbon based monkey creatures living on a silica rock orbiting a small G class star in the unfashionable west end of the spiral arm of the milky way galaxy whose sense evolved 3 million years ago on the African savannah and are only good for finding bananas and so cannot even begin to see the true nature of the universe

Or

Are we star stuff contemplating star stuff, the product of a 14 billion year long process started by something? to do something?

Well which ever it is you can bet the answer will be found in a scientist’s mathematical equation some fine day

Did you see this thread?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Starchild23

 

Sorry if my patience are running thin, but I just cant wrap my head around what you guys are trying to say.

Are you all seriously that stupid? Or are you all trolling me?

You people are seriously telling me living with wolves is better than living with Christians?

Jesus, you people.....WOW.

At least wolves will follow their nature...Christians attempt to deny their nature every day.

So much for being human.

reply to post by Starchild23


Well do me a favor then.

I want you to get yourself a nice digital camera....then record all your statements about how horrible and evil us terrible Christians are.....then why don't you get a few nice juicy steaks, and hang them around your neck. Next, I want you to record yourself venturing into the wilderness and greeting your new wolf bretheren.

Get back to me when you do that, lemme kno how it goes. I'm sure those wolves will welcome you with open arms, while us evil Christians would shun you and scold you for being a naughty naughty boy!

reply to post by Starchild23


You clearly hate Christianity and all that Jesus stands for. It saddens me that you feel the need to spend all your days spreading lies and deceiving others. If you really had a lack of belief in God you would use your time in other ways. This verse is for you:

“And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (John 3:19-21)

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Starchild23

 

You clearly hate Christianity and all that Jesus stands for. It saddens me that you feel the need to spend all your days spreading lies and deceiving others. If you really had a lack of belief in God you would use your time in other ways. This verse is for you:

“And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (John 3:19-21)

I'm going to replace every "God" in this quote with "love", and "light" with "positive", and "evil" with "negativity", and "darkness" with "destruction"...

Why? Because your bull# is a riddle. That's all.

I don't hate Christianity, I just pity it for doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I want to help you find the true nature of your faith, but you won't listen. You're too afraid of facing something that you can't define or necessarily understand, or confront the mistakes and inevitable failures of your life, or reconcile negative with positive, or embrace the divinity within you, because that will make your original premise of flawed understanding and misrepresented faith undeniably blatant, even to you.

Have a good day, judgmental one. Remember, your god will be waiting to judge you back.

reply to post by Starchild23


Your living proof that there is a God if you need a reason. Take a hint from my signature... If you start by looking for God in your self you may end up mistaking yourself for being God. You spread a classic New Age false gospel. People see straight through your lies my friend, the Bible is the only thing that can be trusted. Christianity is the one true faith.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Starchild23

 

Your living proof that there is a God if you need a reason. Take a hint from my signature... If you start by looking for God in your self you may end up mistaking yourself for being God. You spread a classic New Age false gospel. People see straight through your lies my friend, the Bible is the only thing that can be trusted. Christianity is the one true faith.

I am a tiny proton in the flesh of god, as are we all. That may sound crazy, but based on the signs that are cropping up all over, not to mention ancient beliefs that were covered up as modern Christianity rose up and took control of the people.

We are God...God didn't create us. He/She/It became us. We are the constructions of His/Her/Its flesh. He/She/It created us in His/Her/Its image...His/Her/Its energy. And I firmly believe, no matter what you say, that no morally-inclined god would create an entire race, completely sentient, for the express purpose of being worshiped.

It is demeaning, debasing, shameful, and utterly disrespectful toward the beauty we were given. It's spitting in the face of God, to turn from all of the greatness we could be just to waste the minutes we are given in life to bow at his feet and grovel absolute drivel. If we are to do anything for Source, it is to rise above our primite nature, and become a loving, peaceful utopia.

Am I wrong in thinking this? I don't believe so. I believe that is exactly what a proud father/mother would want...for you to grow up, become your own person, give them little ones to love, and surprise them every day. Parents, you will understand this, I think.

"Oh, but I don't want my children killing each other!"

If one hundred years are a day to God, I'm pretty sure genocide is a papercut.

Lies? You call my posts lies? If mine are lies, then yours are as well. After all, I have provided more logic and evidence for my statements than you have. What does that tell you?

Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by Starchild23

 

This has been explained over and over. I am an atheist because I reject the claim that gods exist. That's all man. How everything got here, I don't know. What does the evidence suggest? That's what we need to find out.

I could say that it was the big bang that caused it. Another atheist might say the universe has always existed. Another atheist may say something different than that. All we have in common is that we do not believe gods exist. Why is that so hard to understand? I mean, believers even reject all gods but their own. We just go one step further.

As far as caring and loving for each other, I am in the same boat as you. It's hard to do that though when you are told you are going to burn for an eternity because you don't believe the same as somebody else.

I couldn't have say it better.
You summed it all up.

A star for You.

Y'know, I found this story below me a bit entertaining and certainly a positive correlation with most individuals who label themselves as Atheists. Not judging all of them.

There is one story of a Scholar and an Atheist. Long ago, an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions were: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists, then where is God?”

Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.

The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, the scholar showed up.

“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain was so heavy that the bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God that a giant tree fell down near me, then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that, the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river, (Clearly made up, but this person is just proving a point)” said the scholar.

The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself when no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”

The villagers were laughing out loud.

After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?

Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.

“Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist.

“If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God, then God does not exist.

The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hard, and so the Atheist felt so much pain.

“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”

The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”

“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.

“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers.

The villagers said, “No!”

“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.

The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.

How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?
We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exists.

How many things in the sky that are billions light years away, even trillions light years away, that could not be seen by people until recently, exist?

How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?

Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.

The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.

If if we take a look at the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational to say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them. If the simple thing such as the match has its makers is logical enough to comprehend, then the universe, far more complex than that, can certainly have a Creator.

Again, that's just my own interpretation.