A question for all the Fundamentalist Christians

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
One of the best books I have read is "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He handles this topic quite well, in my opinion. It's been awhile, so I can't remember exactly what his argument was, but when I read it, it really clicked with me. If you really want to explore the Christian faith, I suggest you read it. CS Lewis used to be an athiest, and in the book he discusses the struggles he had with the ideas of faith.

Basically, though, anyone who thinks they are a "Super Christian", as you called them, is not living in the spirit of Christ. The holier-than-thou attitude is NOT what Christianity is all about; not in the least. Christians are called to serve their fellow man, NOT to judge them. So anyone who comes across as a judgmental "super Christian" isn't living the life they should be. Don't judge Christianty based upon them.

Mere Christianity is a great book. I myself am an atheist, and still find many admirable qualities in CS Lewis.

On the topic, I believe that if there is a God, and if Christianity is the truth.. the people that believe these people are going to hell are the ones that will be in for the rudest of awakenings.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Klassified

 

Yea, that's where I have my idea that perhaps not everything in the Bible is exactly as God intended.

I find it hard to believe that all those people who didn't fall into the strict categories all went to hell. Imagine all the good people who lived their lives by God's word, only to find out that their only crime is being born too early.

I think I will stick with using the Bible as a guide rather than a history book.

Thanks for posting.

I have another idea. Let say the the bible and all other religons are exactly what they are intended as. The bible is a perfect test to see if the person go towards the devine (harmony, love, unity, peace) or ego (disharmony, hate, judgement). It is an incredable lesson god have given ous. Will you stand up against even god (the bully version that is not real to me at all told in some parts of the bible) at the chance of being sent to eternal hell for what is right(for the devine). Ego is a human thing and not of the devine. Blind faith is not the way.

Matthew 7:7
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

This is to me the words of a teacher not someone who want's people of blind faith. Someone who wants students who argue/question and understand the lesson on a higher level than the words. You have been given a mind to think and there is a reason. Above is for me only line in the bible that you need, to be able to find your way to god and go to heaven(enlightment/christ conciousness).

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
As a Mason, you've taken oaths that probably are in direct contradiction to God's Will. You know already in your heart that any secret organisation that requires oaths and does not disclose information before the taking of oaths is of no good. Yet you've chosen it freely despite possibly a few initial thoughts and doubts.
There is no excuse when God sits above and can be sought by seekers of Truth. HE teaches. HE loves. HE judges.

As a mason I have taken some obligations. Being that I am the one who took them, and I teach them and their meaning to new masons, I also understand them. I know what's in them. I know that they do not go against God's will. And if I am lucky enough to get to the pearly gates it will be my conversation with God as to if I get in or not. I just wonder why PEOPLE seem to think they have the inside track on something that PEOPLE cannot possibly comprehend. It baffles me.

reply to post by network dude

Dear network dude.

With the understanding that I am not a fundamentalist, allow me to jump in and offer some thoughts from an average Catholic.

1.) Lost tribe of Borneo "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved." Catholoc Catechism Sec1260

2.) Heard about born again but rejected be off the charts. You've got time, you can still come back. But a final knowing, free will decision to be separated from God, gets you that separation.

3.) material wealth as God's blessing It can be, but so can poverty. It's not proof of anything

4.) those that died BC Moses was taken to Abraham's bosom. A good place, but not heaven. Christ opened those doors to heaven.

Obviously, I just threw this together due to time pressures, but I'd be glad to talk with you about any of it.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I do have some ideas I will bring up tomorrow. The dishwasher is broke and If I don't fix it, I have to become the dishwasher. Off to work!

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by network dude

 

Dear network dude.

With the understanding that I am not a fundamentalist, allow me to jump in and offer some thoughts from an average Catholic.

1.) Lost tribe of Borneo "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved." Catholoc Catechism Sec1260

2.) Heard about born again but rejected be off the charts. You've got time, you can still come back. But a final knowing, free will decision to be separated from God, gets you that separation.

3.) material wealth as God's blessing It can be, but so can poverty. It's not proof of anything

4.) those that died BC Moses was taken to Abraham's bosom. A good place, but not heaven. Christ opened those doors to heaven.

Obviously, I just threw this together due to time pressures, but I'd be glad to talk with you about any of it.

With respect,
Charles1952

I have a good friend who is in the KOC and very active in his church. I went with him a few Sundays just to check out his surroundings and see if I liked his Priest. I didn't take communion since I have not gone to confession in years. I have nothing against any religion, And I have a lot invested in my Catholic background, but I just don't agree with most of the things that go on. I just don't feel like it's my thing anymore.

I almost think it would be nice to talk to a priest about my issues, but seeing as how I probably won't be changing my mind, it would end up a pointless exercise. I like to deal with God on a personal level. I talk to him, he listens and gives me the guidance I need.


My point of this thread is to find out why the fundamentalists will try so hard to make some passage in the Bible do their bidding of destroying anothers way of life. I just feel like if they were a bit more open minded, thy might learn something they didn't know, instead of thinking they are the chosen ones or something.

Originally posted by network dude
While I enjoy learning new things and hearing other people tell of their beliefs and experiences, I have a problem understanding the views of these Super Christians. I am told that because I am involved in masonry, I am going to hell. That's fine. I am told that anyone who does not follow the path these folks have set out, they too will go to hell.

Network dude, how are you doing? So I hope you don't see me as one of these "Super Christians" but if you do, I will first apologize for any of my posts and other Christians post that seem condemning and insensitive. Without starting this debate again, all I will say is that in studying your craft, the rituals and symbols througout Freemasonry originate from others that did not glorify God (the G.A.O.T.U in this case). I will admit I do not know everything about your craft, neither do some of those who judge. Ultimately only God knows the state of your heart and your beliefs. Your fate will be decided by Him alone not any mortal human.

But what of the Lost tribe in Borneo? A group of people who live very good lives, care for the planet they live on, pray to Bugla Bugla, (God to them) and generally help each other out. Are they destined to hell because they were not let in on the instructional "save your soul" program laid out by the Born Again Christian group?

I personally would have a big problem with any teachers of Christ who think that a mortal man knows the direction of anyone's eternal spirit.

Something to ponder on the road to perdition.

Just to reiterate, I have no place to say for sure where your soul is going. We are not called to condemn but to love. That doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion and discuss issues that seem to go against God; Christians should be willing to have a discussion rather than automatically condemning

I was raised in a very fundamentalist church.

You are not expected to question the prevailing teachings about subjects like this.

However, as a child, I would raise questions like this.

Through out history, there have been many groups of people that would never have been exposed to the christian religion. So I asked if they were condemned to hell. Most of the Sunday school teachers were not prepared to answer the questions of inquisitive children when it went out of bounds.

I developed my own theory about religion. Organized religions tend to make statements that bind followers to that particular religion. But I think that you need to strip those things away from a religion and see what is left.

I think that there are many paths to god. You just need to find your own.

reply to post by network dude

Dear network dude,

Nice to see you again, May I offer a suggestion? Talk to the priest, acknowledging up front that you're not planning to convert, you're just looking for truth.

It is possible that he will be able to talk about, or point you to thinkers who have worked on, the same questions you are facing. By inspecting their thoughts you can save yourself a lot of time by not going down paths that have been identified as dead ends.

Oh, and sorry for the jumbled response I threw at you last night.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Kyobosha
Just to reiterate, I have no place to say for sure where your soul is going. We are not called to condemn but to love. That doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion and discuss issues that seem to go against God; Christians should be willing to have a discussion rather than automatically condemning

And I do respect that completely. Discussion is a wonderful thing as both sides usually walk away with some gained knowledge. That is most of the reason I try to get into discussions here. Even when talking to someone who thinks exactly opposite of me, if they are well informed, I can learn why they think like they do.

Thanks for the post.

reply to post by fnpmitchreturns


Virginia's great like that a'int it?

reply to post by charles1952


My problems aren't necessarily something I expect to get fixed. I don't think anyone should need a mediator to speak with God, (that kind of put the priest out of a job) and I feel that most churches seem a bit too concerned with building bigger and better churches, and a bit too removed from building better children of God. (that is a personal issue)

I did enjoy the ritual of the mass partly because you always know what is coming next. (I used to tear the corners of Christmas presents long before Christmas Day)

Anyway, thanks much for the conversation.

It's interesting watching you all...

What happened to acceptance? To the best of my knowledge the only fundamental teaching of Jesus was to LOVE each other. It's also interesting watching how many self righteous zealots preaching to other Christians about how best they lead their lives. It's also pretty damn sickening. Live and let live. In our current age of relative world turmoil why would any one want to cause further conflicts... And in the name of God? Don't we ALL have enough to worry about leading our own lives as to leave NO room to dictate to others how to live theirs?

What do all you Christians say to someone who isn't Christian, like myself?

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Matthew 7:7
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

it's funny you should quote that passage. It is explained in the Entered apprentice lecture.
Seems a lot relates to the number 3.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

Hi Pat -

You wrote,

QUOTE:

"... If they worship Idols like Masons do then I am sure [God] is not going to be happy about it. Knowing and not knowing are two very different things...."

UNQUOTE

So ridddle me this : Exactly to which ancient middle eastern [clan] 'god' are you referring here?

Are you perhaps referring to YHWH ('Yah-weh') the late clan-god of post Exilic Yisro'el, whose main-claim to fame is his rather nasty habit of exterminating and genociding all the Amalekites 'from under heaven'?

See this important discussion on the genocidal Tendenz within Judaeism's supposedly ancient and 'unholy' Torah - a fact of their ugly history which is being deliberately hidden from both Jews and Christians, and for good reasons too, as you will see...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Are you actually referring to the same genocidal (and whimsical !) clan-god of the Jews who in one place tells 'Mosheh' (Exodus 34:17 - part of the supposedly ancient Torah of the Jews) NOT to make any molten idols, then commands 'Mosheh' TO MAKE a molten [pagan] Midianite Snake God idol out of Brass (Numbers 21:4-9 - also part of the supposedly ancient Torah of the Jews !)

Then to add Insult to Injury, YHWH has the unmitigated nerve to order 'Mosheh' to place that Pagan Snake Idol on A POLE !! - so that the 'benei-Yisroel' could specifically burn incense to it ('regard it') to ward off snake bite?

The fact that this pagan Midianite Molten Brass Snake Idol ('Nahash' - paleoHeb for 'snake' / 'Nehushtan' = paleoheb. for 'cast-bronze Idol' ) was actually set up in the 'holy-tabernacle of YHWH' and later dragged into the 1st 'holy' Temple of YHWH erected during the reign of the Judaean clan chief 'Jedediah-Sholomon' for more than 400 years (until it was finally 'ground to powder and cast into the river' by the ultra right wing radical Yawhistic Judaean clan chief Hezekiah c. 680 BCE) shows that your stance on 'idolatry' (or even monolatry) is somewhat confused.

Can you even read paleoHebrew?

Most persons conversant in these little matters know that within modern Free Masonry, especially in the higher Degreed Eschelons, there are many secret ceremonies that require the candidate to pray or recite rituals before the tripartite deity JABULON (being an admixture of the 3 gods YHWH, Ba'al & the Egyptian Sun god To-On (i.e. Amun-Ra) - and also, in the veryy highest degrees, are required to pay homage to the androgynous god-goddess of Wisdom known as BAPHOMET (being a reverse Hebrew gemmatrial cipher (Beth-Phe-Vav-Mem-Tav) for the Greek SOPHYA (Sin-Vav-Phe-Yod-Aleph) aka Sofia, the goddess of Wisdom as in the erstwhile Church-now-Mosque of Haggia Sofia located off the Bosphorus in present-day Istanbul, Turkey...)

So..... my question to you is....what on earth makes you even think that modern-day Free Masons are any worse than Mosheh ('Moses') and his Midiantie Bronze Snake Idol thingy-on-a-stick - or even what A'aron his supposed blood-brother got up to - supposedly the head of a 'holy seed' (of Priests !) who made a curious hobby out of smelting down spare pagan Cannanite golden earings to make golden pagan Cannanite Calf Fertility Idols for the supposedly 'chosen people' to bow down before?

Or maybe I am just missing something here...

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Most persons conversant in these little matters know that within modern Free Masonry, especially in the higher Degreed Eschelons, there are many secret ceremonies that require the candidate to pray or recite rituals before the tripartite deity JABULON (being an admixture of the 3 gods YHWH, Ba'al & the Egyptian Sun god To-On (i.e. Amun-Ra) - and also, in the veryy highest degrees, are required to pay homage to the androgynous god-goddess of Wisdom known as BAPHOMET (being a reverse Hebrew gemmatrial cipher (Beth-Phe-Vav-Mem-Tav) for the Greek SOPHYA (Sin-Vav-Phe-Yod-Aleph) aka Sofia, the goddess of Wisdom as in the erstwhile Church-now-Mosque of Haggia Sofia located off the Bosphorus in present-day Istanbul, Turkey...)

Um.....nope. you are getting your Masonic information From a Known and admitted Hoax. It's a shame that people will go through life blissfully ignorant simply because they want to believe in something that sounds fantastic.

Or maybe I am just missing something here...

Ya think?

reply to post by network dude

Hi Network -

I can see you are the one who is blissfully unaware of the rituals of the highest Masonic Degrees (i.e. 32-o , 33-o and all the higher 'invisible' degrees which few even know about !) -

And since all of this was a shock to your system (apparently !) you clearly are ignorant of many of the higher secret rituals that the lower orders know nothing about i.e. of e.g. 32-o, 33-o Masonry or even higher - so I can readilly see why you would not know anything at all about either the Jahbalon Rite or about the Baphomet Rite or any of the other pre-Christian or anti-Christian 'higher hiden' rituals within modern Freemasonry, especially in the older European varieties.

I'm not sure however whether you actually knew anything about the story of YHWH, the clan god of post exilic Jews commanding Mosheh ('Moses') in Numbers chapter 21 (part of their supposedly ancient Torah) to fashion a molten bronze Midianite Snake Idol (Nahash / Nehushtan )and theen place it upon a POLE in order to burn incense to it - ostensibly to ward of Snakebite - and if you DID NOT know anything about ancient Jewish Idolatry in the earliest 'Cannanite' invasion-periods - including the idol building condoned by both Mosheh and 'A-haron' in the supposedly ancient Torah of the Jews - then you REALLY need to do a LOT more research on this whole subject.

I would strongly suggest ANET (Ancient Near Eastern Texts by Pritchard, orig. published in 1956 and updated in subsequent volumes) to get you more acquainted with pagan rituals and idol worship from the earliest days within preExilic Yisro'el.

But beware : it might all come as quite a shock to your system when you start discovering the truth of these little matters !!!!

Originally posted by network dude
While I enjoy learning new things and hearing other people tell of their beliefs and experiences, I have a problem understanding the views of these Super Christians. I am told that because I am involved in masonry, I am going to hell. That's fine. I am told that anyone who does not follow the path these folks have set out, they too will go to hell.

But what of the Lost tribe in Borneo? A group of people who live very good lives, care for the planet they live on, pray to Bugla Bugla, (God to them) and generally help each other out. Are they destined to hell because they were not let in on the instructional "save your soul" program laid out by the Born Again Christian group?

I personally would have a big problem with any teachers of Christ who think that a mortal man knows the direction of anyone's eternal spirit.

Something to ponder on the road to perdition.

It wasn't Columbus who found America, wherelse come the idians from? All people come from one place = the middle of the earth = Israel. What God they've now, a bugla or a bobo... doesn't matter. Remember Abram, he comes from Syria and God called him to go out of his land to a place where he should go...Abram go's, similar as God could call someone out of that tribe. He knocks on many doors, but you have to be open it, and if you don't want to know Him, He'll walks further.

reply to post by Sigismundus


Hi,
I am sure you think you have lots of specialized knowledge after watching You Tube videos and reading Freemaosnrywatch, but I am a 32nd degree mason. I actually help put on several degrees in the Scottish Rite. Meaning I not only know what's in the degrees, I can tell you what goes on backstage before and after the degrees.

Now I will admit that I am not a 33rd and do not know what goes on during that degree, but I do know a bunch of 33rds, and know that they would not be the kind of men who follow Jesus Christ their whole lives, and then the day they get their 33rd, they switch over to Lucifer or Baal, or Balphomet.

It's hard to admit when you have been duped, but you have been duped. You are thinking you know all about this but your information comes from a very old, very much admitted hoax. It's called the Taxil Hoax.

Since you like you tube, maybe you can find a video about that.

HERE is a start to your future understanding of things.

Of course, you are free to ignore my facts and continue to believe as you wish.

reply to post by network dude

Hi Net –

The issue here, unfortunately for you (and for us too !), is that you have only attained the (American version) of the Scottish Rite 32-o and know absolutely No Thing What So Ever about the higher European Scottish Rite 33-o Degree or anything about all the higher Invisible Degrees within modern Speculative Freemasonry – and of course there are branches in Europe still around which hold to the older higher rites….you sound like you are more in tuned with Practical FreeMasonry – but that’s just a hunch of course !

Interestingly, perhaps, no less an authority than Albert Pike places the so-called Masonic Baphomet Natural Rite (designed for the Candidate to learn how to control all the hidden Forces of Nature) under the 28th Degree of the Scottish Rite and not the 33rd Degree as it is known to be placed today…but you claim only to have arrived at the 32-o degree within the Scottish Rite so….I guess you’ll have to wait and see before you start barking nonsense and wishful thinking something about which you apparently know nothing at all…!

I live just outside (south of) Muir Woodslocated above the city of San Francisco in northern CA, I meet alot of these folks in the Summertime - especially after they've imbibed a lot of alcohol and start spewing their Weird Ritual Secrets all over the place - and well, you can do the math---or maybe you cannot !

Here’s the Quote allegedly penned by Albert Pike -

“[ Initiates] held that it the Universal Agent composed the Igneous Body of the Holy Spirit, which was adored in the Secret Rites of the Sabbat or the Temple under the Hieroglyphic figure of BaPHOMeT or the Hermaphroditic Goat of Mendes… ." Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry p. 734, On the Teaching of the 28th Degree.

Interestingly the Goat of Mendes Pentagram (used in the 33-o degrees & higher) is echoed in the ‘female’ Masonic Eastern Star logo…hmmmm

Also similar Pan-Goat-Sex-Nature (male-female) Symbols are clearly referreed to in earlier Rabinnic ‘mystical’ talmudim – which seem to echo parts of these ‘nature’ rites within later esoteric Masonry cf: Genesis Midrash Rabbah 19 which describes Samael, the lord of the all the Shataynim, was ‘the Prince’ of the Watchers (angels.

Samiel-Satainiel appeared with Chavvah in the Garden (i.e. Eve - Midrash Yalkut, Genesis 1:23) but like all celestial beings, he flies (Beresh. Rabbah 19), and can assume the form of a bird (Sanhedrin 107a), a stag (ibid, 95a), a whore (ibid, 81a), a beggar, a beautiful young man (Midrash Tanchuma, Wayera) and can also hop and cavort ‘capriciously’ i.e. skip around as a Goat (Talmud Pesachim 112b and Megilla. 11b).