Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

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posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by harryhaller

Originally posted by defcon5
Think about this for a second.
When you give up freedom to the government for security, besides the obvious, what else are you doing? Your putting your faith in your protection in your government not in your God. If that is not worshiping your government as an idol, I don't know what is. You're allowing your God given freedom to be stripped in exchange for a safer and more worldly life.



It's very disheartening to see how quickly society falls into tune with the state.




Its hard for the common person not to fall in tune with the state and government,when the vast majority of us not above the law,are threatened with prison from every possible angle every day of the week by tptb,who have enslaved us to a dollar bill that they have disgracefully adhered the words in god we trust upon...
edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
It seems to me that the "little horn", like the much-speaking second beast in Revelation ch13, is meant to represent an individual, which works against your interpretation of it.

Or a position held by individuals.
Again, the Pontifex Maximus.
Its pretty hard to disagree with his changing of the “times and laws”.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
That's what I'm missing from your scenario. In your description of what the American government is doing or might be doing, I don't see an explicit demand to abandon loyalty to the Biblical God. If that demand isn't there, and people are not suffering death because of it, then we haven't got the situation that Revelation was designed to deal with.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


It never says in the bible that the last beast will force you to abandon your faith, it only says that you will not be “able to buy or sell” without its mark. All the stuff about tormenting the saints, and putting demands on your faith comes from the beast before that. The one that is Rome.

Rome did in fact do this. It was a death penalty offense to be anything other then Roman Catholic for a large part of almost the last 2000 years. If you so much as questioned the RCC, you were tortured to death via the Inquisition. Supposedly the RCC put more Christians to death then any other entity on the planet before or since. If you so much as owned a Bible, and could see for yourself that the RCC was twisting Gods word, you were a threat and therefore killed by them. Luthers final kick in their butts was to translate the Bible, and mass print it.

Remember when dealing with Historicism, your dealing with multiple entities spanning over the last 2000 years, not a single one.

Added just for ease:


11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 4/23/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

No, the pressure on the faith also comes through the agency of the second beast;
""It [the second beast] was allowed... to cause those who would not worship the image of the [first] beast to be slain."- Revelation ch13 v15



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Again though that may be talking about the system, not literally becoming a Catholic.
As an example, Rome was a democratic republic, the US is a democratic republic, what do we do with countries that we do not consider “democratic”?
Generally we make enemies with them and go to war.
I'm not saying that is what the verse means, I am just using it as an example of showing that they do kill over not following their system. Chances are good that this will only get worse as time goes on.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

You know, the link between first and second beasts is much more natural and straightforward if the second beast represents the leader of the state represented by the first beast.

Otherwise we're left with the United States putting people to death for not worshipping the Papacy, which doesn't work at all in any convincing way.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Here, check this out:



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


edit on 4/23/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
You know, the link between first and second beasts is much more natural and straightforward if the second beast represents the leader of the state represented by the first beast.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Unfortunately prophetic language doesn’t work that way, and beast's ALWAYS represent kingdoms, not kings.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Let me just ask you one logical question.
If you were the “prince of this world” where would you have your seat of power?
In the richest, most powerful places?
How about in the largest supposedly Christian religion on Earth?
Why not, if you can get away with it?
You could certainly do the most damage there, and you could slowly influence things in a manner that it just seemed like the natural order of things. Frog in a pot syndrome. You could slowly twist your dogma further and further from the bible, until, for example, your members revere the human mother of God as much as they do God. Heck, over time you can even say that she is a “partial” savior, a co-Redeemer. After all, the best lies are the ones that are rooted mostly in truth, but just twisted enough to still be lies.

Then while you're at it, why not trick Christians into looking for some future sci-fy antichrist, so they keep looking everywhere but at you?

If you're really slick, then you can get some who claim to be "Christians" to take the mark, because they figure “well that can't be the mark, I don't see an antichrist yet”, "a rebuilt Temple", "a peace treaty with Israel".

2 Thessalonians 2-
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 4/23/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Unfortunately prophetic language doesn’t work that way, and beast's ALWAYS represent kingdoms, not kings.

This view is not universally accepted.
There's a very popular line of interpretation, for example, which takes both beasts to be individuals.
One advantage of my compromise view is that it explains why the second beast "exercises the authority of the first beast in its presence". If the second beast is an individual human. he can do things for the first beast, the state, which the first beast cannot do in person (as a result of not being a person).
When the leader sacks people or orders armies into battle, he is "exercising the authority" which belongs to the state.
It all fits together.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

I did a thread on the Mark of the Beast, if that's what we're getting into.
I've always disliked the "tricked into taking the Mark" theory, on the grounds that the Mark is a badge of loyalty.

So taking the Mark is a decision against God, which God recognises as such.

But if the Mark is such a reliable indicator of loyalty that it can be decisive even in the eyes of God, there are certain conditions which it must be able to meet;

The condition of voluntary loyalty (it can't be forced on you). Because if it could be imposed by physical force, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.

The condition of conscious loyalty.(you must be aware of what you are doing). Because if it could be imposed by any kind of deception or trickery, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
This view is not universally accepted.
There's a very popular line of interpretation, for example, which takes both beasts to be individuals.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Yeah...Futurism...

The antichrist and the false prophet.
But Revelation is based on the prophetic language of Daniel, and what does that say:

Daniel 7-
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom.

Beasts are superpower countries of their day and match the parts of the earlier statue interpretation.
Horns are people or positions held by people.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

But if you look back to v17 in that chapter, you get;
"These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth".
The usage is ambiguous enough to make dogmatism difficult.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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I wish people would stop trying to find when time will end and cherish the time we do have left



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by vicnc2012
 

You agree with me, then, that we should not be trying to calculate the date.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

That is a translation issue:

bible.cc...
New International Version (©1984)
'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"These four huge beasts represent four kingdoms that will arise from the earth.

To get the actual meaning go back to the interpretation of the Statue:

in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.




As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by vicnc2012
I wish people would stop trying to find when time will end and cherish the time we do have left
The world ends everytime someone dies and around 150,000 people are dying every day,which is an awful lot of worlds ending all the time...
edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
I did a thread on the Mark of the Beast, if that's what we're getting into.
I've always disliked the "tricked into taking the Mark" theory, on the grounds that the Mark is a badge of loyalty.
I disagree.
It can just as easily be a case where only those who are true enough Christians to researched, and have figured it out for themselves know what it is, but its never revealed to everyone. You notice in my quotes above the God himself says that he is going to send a “strong delusion” to sort out the real Christians from the hypocrites?​



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

The RSV and jerusalem Bible say "kings" as well.

Anyway, let me draw something else to your attention.
At the end of Revelation ch19, "the beast" is thrown into the lake of fire along with the "false prophet".
The obvious questions are; why is there only one beast, suddenly, and where did the "prophet" come from?
The most sensible solution is that "the prophet" is an alternative label for the "second beast".
Which encourages me to understand the "spoke like a dragon" second beast as an individual



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


When the jews return to zion,

And a comet rips the sky...

The holy roman empire rises,

Then you and i must die...

From the eternal sea he rises,

Creating armies on either shore...

Turning man against his brother,

Til man exists no more...


A poem from,the omen-1976


edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)





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