Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

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posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by harryhaller
 

Nearly everything that happens in Revelation is either the persecution of the church or God's response to the persecution of the church (this being the subject of the book). So when we say that the man of sin, the persecutor, hasn't been revealed yet, that amounts to most of the book which is still to come.
As in the case of an Agatha Christie novel; until the murder has taken place, and the process of detecting the murderer has been set in motion, the book hasn't really got under way.

In any case, the events of ch6, the "Four Horsemen" episode, are so devastating to the world that I can't match them against anything that has happened so far. I think we're still waiting for them. If we're still waiting for ch6, we're also waiting for the events which follow ch6.


Just because the man of sin hasn't been revealed doesn't mean he hasn't been very busy? And i think that enough innocent blood has been spilled for someone to cry foul? Dark centuries and thousands of innocent men women and children brutally tortured and murdered ... under some horrific pretence to higher orders. The poep has been identified before in history as the anti-christ, but he is still seen as "good". The revealing of the man of sin will make us all know how evil that empire really is, and whether we stand with it or against it.

As to the utterly misinformed nonsense (or lies) of colbe, Mary has been crowned the "Queen of Heaven" repeatedly by the catholics. The great sin is that they replace the Redeemer with His mother, who despite being a very good woman, was not the Saviour, could not be the Saviour. Nobody else but Christ could be, and nobody else fulfilled all the prophecy as He did. That's the thing, only 1 Saviour, NOT many.

The tranference as intermediary from Jesus to Mary is scripturally untenable, as with many other catholic doctrines, but it only makes sense as the pagan trinity, father mother son. Hearking back to Horus, and Isis, and baby Seb, biblically named as Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz.

God has not been silent, only a fool would insult God that way. God has left his witnesses, the Old and New Testaments in the form of the Textus Receptus, that which the Jesuits have plotted against for centuries. And never forget the Holy Spirit, who is with us till the end.


COLBE:
The biggest hint, a help to not being deceived. It is prophesied in Daniel and by current prophets, The anti-Christ is going to abolish the Eucharist. Why would he do that if it were not true?


Show it. And i am grateful that you say i shall not see Mary, since it would not be the good mother of Jesus, could not be. It could only be that old dragon, who is said to be very beautiful as female by the pagans. Venus, the goddess of love, and fertility, and you label the mother of Christ with such blasphemy?

I receive communion by the command of the High Priest, who further instructed us not to call one another "father".

Be careful lest you not be deceived ... man He was good!

See how the bible is the sword too?




posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by DeadSeraph


To answer your first point: When my loved ones have asked for prayer (or I have asked them for prayer) it's understood that we are asking each other to pray to God on our behalf, not to pray TO them. We also pray to God DIRECTLY, through Christ.

In regards to your second point, I contend that all of these various forms of prayer are reserved for God alone, as directing prayer of any kind to any human being (dead or living) would be a direct violation of the first commandment.


Oh my gosh, I see your confusion, you are misunderstanding one word, TO. Oh, and understanding "directing." Mary doesn't become God because you ask her to pray for you. How can I best explain it, could another Catholic help maybe a better use of words. I'll try.

"we are asking each other to pray to God on our behalf"

Mary isn't God but a very special human person. Take out two of your words and add Mary's name.

"we are asking Mary to pray to God on our behalf"

There you
have it.

Recall Cana, Mary has influence with her Son. All these years, the evidence, the testimony to prayers directed to Mary for her intercession
are granted, some of them miracles. Keeping in mind every prayer is answered and everything comes from God...it is His Will prayers are answered as they are....

You said the same thing with your reply about types of prayer. My point again, for example, if I ask my brother to pray for me, he doesn't become God. He is an intercessor. If I ask Our Lord's mother to pray to God for me, she doesn't become God, she's an intercessor.

I guess non-Catholic Christians only look to the intercessors down here. Catholics ask loved ones here and the same, family and friends in Heaven, the Saints and Our Lord's mother and well known angels like the Archangel Michael to intercede to God for us. They all can because we are one big family, humanity, the Angels and the Blessed Trinity.

Revelation has verses about the "saints interceding." Important, you
can go to God directly, you can do both.


take care,


colbe



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by harryhaller
 


hi harryh,

Mary being QUEEN doesn't replace the KING, Jesus Christ our Redeemer
and our God. Look in the Old Covenant, the mother not the wife is
Queen. The title of Queen given Mary is the plan of the Blessed Trinity.
The "woman" spoken of in Revelation 12:1, Mary, sounds very royal.

Non-Catholic Christian "communion" is not the same. The Eucharist, the consecrated host becomes Our Lord. It's supernatural, so humble of Him to desire to be with us actually in us this way. I wish you would believe, the Eucharist is the pinnacle of the faith. I hope you will, we'll see at the
time of the Great Warning.

Catholicism is "pagan" objection is not true. You could say the same of Protestantism in some respects.

www.catholicthinker.net...

..."Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.

By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple,....

By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)."

In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period."

blessings,

colbe



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by colbe
Proof, this is why it will only be God to change Protestants

The Catholic church needs to learn enough humility to understand that Protestants DON'T NEED to be changed. They are Christians.

The topic of this thread is Revelation prophecy and date-setting.
When we were talking about Mary, we were still (just) within the topic, because I was explaining why i could not accept Mary-associated prophecy for date-setting purposes.
Once we get into the whole gamut of differences between the Catholic and Protestant communities, we are wandering way off topic.

One more point. Let me educate you on one aspect of ATS practice,
What you call "tearing my posts apart" is actually recommended practice here on ATS.
I am quoting only the selected comments to which I am replying. That is what I am supposed to do.
You and other comparative newcomers tend to quote an entire post and just add comments at the bottom. The Mods hate that sort of thing, for various reasons. S.O. set up the character limit on posts in an attempt to discourage it.
So now, I hope, you understand why I quote your posts in a selective way.


"Protestants DON'T NEED to be changed."

....sounds very humble. Protestants reject more of God's revelation than they accept, they better change~!

I shared prophecy, I am on topic but you do not accept it...see just made my previous point. You're always telling me I am wrong and you
are right...very humble. My request doesn't have anything to do with being a new member. NO ONE LIKES THEIR POSTS taken apart sentence by sentence. Keep a reply together, I am requesting a second time and if you want, underline or put in bold what you wish to comment on but please keep it together. ATS has made it possible you can reply showing who you are responding to without posting any of the reply!
Your excuse is an excuse. Taking threads apart sentence by sentence
are a way to go on and on and on and people reading it can't see what
the original reply said in full.

Let me instruct you, you mean old anti-Catholic, I posted full messages from Heaven not knowing about the quoting rule. Now I know and I don't share the full message. I post a portion of it and the link and my personal comment before hand and sometimes after.

Noticed you never responded about your background, I asked, trying to
figure out your meanness. Were you baptized Roman Catholic?



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by colbe
"Protestants DON'T NEED to be changed."....sounds very humble.

The reverse is also true. Consider how much arrogance and pride and desire to control can be found in the attitude of the Catholic church authorities towards Protestants, in demanding absolute conformity and obedience.
For that matter, consider how much these qualities are evident in your own attitude towards the Protestant community.
You have an aggressive personality that wants to control me, which is why you get angry when rebuffed (and it might explain why certain doctrines appeal to you).
Do you not accept that I am a Christian, one who belongs to Christ?
If you do not, that is arrogant pride on your part, and you need to repent of it.


Noticed you never responded about your background, I asked, trying to
figure out your meanness. Were you baptized Roman Catholic?

I was never baptised Roman Catholic.
Now can we get on with discussing prophecy?



edit on 26-2-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by harryhaller
Just because the man of sin hasn't been revealed doesn't mean he hasn't been very busy?

In the middle of the reign of Daniel's final king, there is a moment when he comes out into the open and declares war on God, as it were.
I would identify this with the "revelation of the man of sin" that we're waiting for.
It also seems to me that most of Revelation is about the events AFTER this moment. The "trumpet" catastrophe(s) of ch8 (which we haven't seen yet) are God's response to the hostile ruler, and the persecution descriptions of the later chapters are about what comes out of that ruler's hostility. All this becomes more clear if you take the book as a whole and read it through as a complete narrative.
If Revelation is a sequence of events, then we can't expect the second item in the sequence until we've seen the first. In my mind, the events close to the beginning of Revelation are still in the future. In which case the events that follow them must be even further into the future.
edit on 26-2-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 07:03 AM
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reply to post by colbe

 

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
We've talking about this before, and it's still going on. Both newcomers and oldtimers alike are quoting entire long posts and then making a simple reply far too often.

When quoting a post, edit it down to the important pieces necessary to make your point.

If this continues, the quote button may disappear.

My practice in quoting your posts follows the instructions of Skeptic Overlord.
He sets the policy



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 07:27 AM
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Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

 



this thread has been wandering all over the place...

Prophecy, and the forecasts in Revelation are event driven... Events are given as the 'Signs'
dates are not used to pinpoint the start of a prophetic sequence of events...


the 'Event' that begins the Revelation sequence of Trumpets/Bowls/Vials/Thunders/3 woes/Sealed 144k/2 witnesses is found in the sequence starting at Rev. 6: 9-11 which is the opening of the 5th Seal...

i paraphrase, Q: How long until 'the Day of the Lord' ...A: ~be still for a 'little season' until your fellowservants & breathern should be killed also...

Immediately there after (or whatever time duration makes up a part of a 'little season') at the opening of the 6th Seal, the 'Event/Sign' that makes prophecy become real starts: i paraphrase
a great earthquake~
the Sun blackened~
the Moon becomes Red~
every mountain & Island move {GPS disabled}~
Stars fall from heaven like figs from a shaken tree {heavy meteor shower that was unexpected}


So, when the 5 items listed coincide in a single event,
one should understand that the 6th Seal and ALL that follows
will be the Tribulation/Great Tribulation & everything sinister about the End-Times we all worry about.




an oblique message regarding that end-time period which begins with the 6th seal are the verses that tell of the devastation and carnage & bloodshed (which scripture seems to use as a measure of accomplishment)

references; Rev 5:11 ~ Rev 7:9-14 ~ Rev 17:17

the total # of dead, 10k X 10k X 1 thousand X thousands =
+ 200,000,000,000 or two hundred billion dead !
(i reckon that means all throughout the post flood era until the final Day-of-the-Lord, probably some 6,000 years long)


the next, 7: 9-14 speaks of the 'multitude' some of which came out of the Great Tribulation,
a Multitude that no one could number,
presently with the Earth population over 7 Billion- that forecast might be achievable for possibly the first time in all history

Lastly, in 17:17, we are told that the Deity or the holy ghost or even angels will cause the kings of the world to give their kingdoms to the end-time Beast or anti-christ... so that all that need to be slain in the name of Christ will be slain and 'until the words of God be fufilled'



so we can deduce that all of the Revelation prophecies are on a sliding scale of occurrance, with no specific dates implied or hinted at... only when physical Signs or Events are witnessed are the prophecies under way ->
the promised time durations like 1260 days 1335 days, 42 months, etc are subsets of the time period 'Tribulation'
and will be adjusted within the overriding factor of avenging the shed blood of all the Saints and Breathern throughout history
and the requirement of the volume of bloodshed by the billions during the Tribulations to make factual the 'Multitude' that none can number ~~~ 'words of God fufilled' is the first & foremost requirement



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio
this thread has been wandering all over the place...

I know, that's why I was trying to get it back on track


Prophecy, and the forecasts in Revelation are event driven... Events are given as the 'Signs'
dates are not used to pinpoint the start of a prophetic sequence of events...

I think I can concur with that way of putting it.


So, when the 5 items listed coincide in a single event,
one should understand that the 6th Seal and ALL that follows
will be the Tribulation/Great Tribulation & everything sinister about the End-Times we all worry about.

I would amend this account slightly by pointing out that from the beginning of ch7 there is a very deliberate and significant pause in the mayhem, a pause lasting until early in ch8.
It is the second phase, from ch8 onwards, that is responsible for the second batch of martyrs predicted in the time of the Fifth Seal.
So I would be inclined to limit the phrase "Great Tribulation" more strictly to that second phase.




edit on 26-2-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


To answer your first point: When my loved ones have asked for prayer (or I have asked them for prayer) it's understood that we are asking each other to pray to God on our behalf, not to pray TO them. We also pray to God DIRECTLY, through Christ.

In regards to your second point, I contend that all of these various forms of prayer are reserved for God alone, as directing prayer of any kind to any human being (dead or living) would be a direct violation of the first commandment.


Oh my gosh, I see your confusion, you are misunderstanding one word, TO. Oh, and understanding "directing." Mary doesn't become God because you ask her to pray for you. How can I best explain it, could another Catholic help maybe a better use of words. I'll try.

"we are asking each other to pray to God on our behalf"

Mary isn't God but a very special human person. Take out two of your words and add Mary's name.

"we are asking Mary to pray to God on our behalf"

There you
have it.

Recall Cana, Mary has influence with her Son. All these years, the evidence, the testimony to prayers directed to Mary for her intercession
are granted, some of them miracles. Keeping in mind every prayer is answered and everything comes from God...it is His Will prayers are answered as they are....

You said the same thing with your reply about types of prayer. My point again, for example, if I ask my brother to pray for me, he doesn't become God. He is an intercessor. If I ask Our Lord's mother to pray to God for me, she doesn't become God, she's an intercessor.

I guess non-Catholic Christians only look to the intercessors down here. Catholics ask loved ones here and the same, family and friends in Heaven, the Saints and Our Lord's mother and well known angels like the Archangel Michael to intercede to God for us. They all can because we are one big family, humanity, the Angels and the Blessed Trinity.

Revelation has verses about the "saints interceding." Important, you
can go to God directly, you can do both.


take care,


colbe


As much as I will need your prayers in purgatory, I can assure you I wont need them after. Again, in your first few sentences you have claimed it is A-OK to pray to mary and thus receive prophecy from those who are influenced by "your mother of God".

I'm happy to hear you are so interested in saving my soul. Turns out.... Christ already did that for me. I find it unfortunate however, that we consider each other so confused. But when Constantine is a saint within your religion, what more can I expect?

Jesus is quite clear, as are the prophets of old. No man or woman should pray to anyone but God Almighty. Not to mary, not to paul, not to anyone but Him who weaved the very fabric of space and time and then some.

Men have stepped into raging fires for less, and been delivered.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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I sincerely apologize for my part in derailing the thread.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 

You're forgiven.
You got dragged into it by somebody else.



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Sharing an excerpt from a non-Catholic Christian message from Heaven
posted today. How beautiful and hopeful these words from Our Lord. We
think of what we should of done and of past hurts. Speaking of time.



...Bury every fear of the future, of poverty for those dear to you, of suffering, of loss. Bury all thought of unkindness and bitterness, all your dislikes, your resentments, your sense of failure, your disappointment in others and in yourselves, your gloom, your despondency, and let us leave them all, buried, and go forward to a new and risen life....


scroll down about midway to the pic of the sun...

all-things-new.net...



posted on Feb, 26 2012 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by colbe

Oh my gosh, I see your confusion, you are misunderstanding one word, TO. Oh, and understanding "directing." Mary doesn't become God because you ask her to pray for you. How can I best explain it, could another Catholic help maybe a better use of words. I'll try.

"we are asking each other to pray to God on our behalf"

Mary isn't God but a very special human person. Take out two of your words and add Mary's name.

"we are asking Mary to pray to God on our behalf"

There you
have it.

Recall Cana, Mary has influence with her Son. All these years, the evidence, the testimony to prayers directed to Mary for her intercession
are granted, some of them miracles. Keeping in mind every prayer is answered and everything comes from God...it is His Will prayers are answered as they are....

You said the same thing with your reply about types of prayer. My point again, for example, if I ask my brother to pray for me, he doesn't become God. He is an intercessor. If I ask Our Lord's mother to pray to God for me, she doesn't become God, she's an intercessor.

I guess non-Catholic Christians only look to the intercessors down here. Catholics ask loved ones here and the same, family and friends in Heaven, the Saints and Our Lord's mother and well known angels like the Archangel Michael to intercede to God for us. They all can because we are one big family, humanity, the Angels and the Blessed Trinity.

Revelation has verses about the "saints interceding." Important, you
can go to God directly, you can do both.


take care,


colbe


As much as I will need your prayers in purgatory, I can assure you I wont need them after. Again, in your first few sentences you have claimed it is A-OK to pray to mary and thus receive prophecy from those who are influenced by "your mother of God".

I'm happy to hear you are so interested in saving my soul. Turns out.... Christ already did that for me. I find it unfortunate however, that we consider each other so confused. But when Constantine is a saint within your religion, what more can I expect?

Jesus is quite clear, as are the prophets of old. No man or woman should pray to anyone but God Almighty. Not to mary, not to paul, not to anyone but Him who weaved the very fabric of space and time and then some.

Men have stepped into raging fires for less, and been delivered.



Jesus wants you to become Catholic, accept the fullness.

No offense, Purgatory exists. Don't reject Our Lord's mother, her messages. You should go one further and ask, who "influences" Mary? Our Lord, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Shows me you don't read her messages.

You are already saved? No, OSAS is heresy. Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross, He has redeemed mankind. Justification is a life long process. Two different words, understand their meaning, they're not the same...redemption and justification.

You're still stuck on believing the saints can't intercede to God for us but you who hasn't won the race yet, down here on earth can pray to God for others. That makes no sense.

Here are verses from the Gospel to help you. If you go to the link there
is a page full of Gospel and Old Testament references to the intercession of the saints.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

www.scripturecatholic.com...

p.s. Putting down Constantine, that's a first. Constantine is the one
Christian Protestants use, the only one when they speak of early Church
history. Protestant early Church history and further on amounts to his name AND two paragraphs to cover the period from 33 A.D. to 1517. Pretty extensive, two paragraphs. (tee hee)

Cardinal Henry Newman, a former Anglican's famous words. "To be
deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio

Lastly, in 17:17, we are told that the Deity or the holy ghost or even angels will cause the kings of the world to give their kingdoms to the end-time Beast or anti-christ... '



Thanks for that, brought to mind something. The bible keeps referring to ALL the earth that will unite, now it's already 95% of the world that bows to the pope already.

Satan's plans are running concurrently, and which haven't completed yet. The goal is babel tower 2 ... and they're close, but that must still happen before God's final stage kicks in?



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by harryhaller
 

The idea that the Pope is the Beast has got an important catch, as i've observed at other times.
Many Protestants also want to identify the papacy with Harlot Babylon.
But that doesn't take account of the fact that at the end of ch17 the Beast and his allies hate the Harlot and set out to destroy her. This makes it difficult for the same institution to be both of them.

It seems to me that the Beast in Revelation has a political power-base, while the Harlot has a religious powerbase. That would explain the dependant, but also uneasy, relationship between them, which can be matched in many different settings in history.
I would suggest that if you want to find a place for the Pope in Revelation, you confine him to Babylon, and leave the Beast role to be picked up by somebody else.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI


I agree with you on "beast" being a political base. The papacy fulfils this as the one who was, was not, and then was ... with the papacy as a political "beast" since rome, except when removed from political office by Napoleon in 1798 (i think) and being re-instated by Mussolini in 1942. Likewise the beast with 2 horns like a lamb that speaks like a dragon is also a political power (arguably the US).

It's also worth noting the differences between: the pope, a particular pope, the papacy and so on. I have no doubt that the beast is the papacy, but i've found something odd. The "antichrist" isn't a person, but a persona.



1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


And isn't mentioned in Revelation once. Catholic priests have been called anti christs before, based on these verses. They assert themselves over the authority of Christ. John speaks of them "already in the world" ... suggesting that the church in rome had already been corrupted by that time by the appointment of "leaders" called "father". By the First Council of Nicaea at 325ad, we already see the roman/pagan/babylonian influence by the synchronising of easter to the julian calender, the formalisation of heirarchy in the church, expressly forbidden by the first elders int he church.



1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.



1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


The "false prophet" is mentioned, that's the "bad guy" all religions are claiming to expect soon (12th Imam, Matreya, The Universal Christ, etc). Who will speak 3 doctrines identical to the beast (3 unclean spirits) and perform great wonders.
edit on 27-2-2012 by harryhaller because: removed quoted text



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by harryhaller
 

Then who is the Harlot, and why does the Beast end up hating the Harlot and wanting to destroy her?



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Harlot could be the church. In prophecy, women represent churches. The woman rides the beast, separate to, but certainly enjoying the ride. I think of Billy Graham et al, enjoying political status as leaders of the church.



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by harryhaller
 

So your interpretation of the end of ch17 is that the Papacy hates the church so much that it deliberately sets about destroying the church?
"They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire".
This is not an easy scenario to imagine.





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