Notre Dame Faculty to Obama: ‘This Is a Grave Violation of Religious Freedom and Cannot Stand’

reply to post by charles1952

Some/many people say birth control and abortion is a 'health care'.
Health care is a commodity. It isn't a 'right'.
That's just the ugly truth of it.
No one has a 'right' to health care in a captialist society.
It's a service, and goods, to be paid for

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The Catholics are free to exercise their religious beliefs. ...
No one is forcing Catholics to do anything. .

It was forcing Catholics to have to pay for the abortions and birth control of others.
Therefore, they were not able to exercise their religious beliefs.
I have just heard on the news that, once again, it's going to be tweeked.
So whatever the new language is ... we'll have to see.

IMHO - Obama pulled a boner. He tried to get away with something in order to gain votes from his left base. He wasn't anticipating that those 'of faith' would band together and demand that he actually adhere to the Constitution. Now he's calling his backpeddle .. 'compromise'.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The Catholics are free to exercise their religious beliefs. ...
No one is forcing Catholics to do anything. .

It was forcing Catholics to have to pay for the abortions and birth control of others.
Therefore, they were not able to exercise their religious beliefs.
I have just heard on the news that, once again, it's going to be tweeked.
So whatever the new language is ... we'll have to see.

IMHO - Obama pulled a boner. He tried to get away with something in order to gain votes from his left base. He wasn't anticipating that those 'of faith' would band together and demand that he actually adhere to the Constitution. Now he's calling his backpeddle .. 'compromise'.

What these Catholic employers are saying is that their religious beliefs are above those of their employees. Remember, you cannot be discriminated against for employment based on your religious beliefs. So, why would that mean that you can be discriminated against when it comes to your benefits? And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the employees pay for their insurance benefits?

Next, you'll be saying that a Jehovah's Witness, who runs a business, can tell an employee that their insurance benefits will not pay for their blood transfusion or heart transplant because it goes against the JW's beliefs.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. Catholics have the right to practice their religion without the government passing laws to interfere with that. The Catholic Church hospitals, Catholic Church orphanages, Catholic Church clinics, Catholic Church schools are all part of the Catholic Church. They are CATHOLIC and are opened and operated by the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Okay everybody--I got it.

Let's just get rid of religion.

Problem solved.

reply to post by yadda333


Agreed. All this uproar because someone wants less women to take birth control so that they have more and more children which can join the flock and pay their penance every time they "sin". All this is is Catholic employers saying they have more rights than their employees based off religious belief. It's getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
What these Catholic employers are saying is that their religious beliefs are above those of their employees.

Exactly what 'rights' of an employee are being stepped on by Catholic Hospitals retaining their right of freedom of religion? Those employees knew that it was a Catholic Church hospital when they agreed to work there. They knew that the Catholic Church doesn't support abortion or artificial birth control. Those employees can still get birth control via other avenues ... handed out like candy at the local planned parenthood or city clinics. So what 'rights', exactly, are the employees not getting?

And yes .. Freedom of Religion is a Constitutional right.
But free birth control is not.

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
All this uproar because someone wants less women to take birth control so that they have more and more children which can join the flock and pay their penance every time they "sin".

Oh lord .. could you have stuffed any more sterotypes into that sentence?

1 - The Catholic Church isn't withholding birth control from anyone. It's all out there for who ever wants it.

2 - People who work at Catholic Church hospitals aren't all Catholic. They are people of every faith. So the church isn't withholding birth control in these hospitals order to 'make more Catholics'. That's just silly.

3 - Catholics don't 'pay for penance' when they sin. There is no coin slot in the confessional. That's an old fundamentalist anti-Catholic bunch of hooooooey that they like to spread around.

You really should not get your education about Catholicism from Jack Chick tracts.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
What these Catholic employers are saying is that their religious beliefs are above those of their employees.

Exactly what 'rights' of an employee are being stepped on by Catholic Hospitals retaining their right of freedom of religion? Those employees knew that it was a Catholic Church hospital when they agreed to work there. They knew that the Catholic Church doesn't support abortion or artificial birth control. Those employees can still get birth control via other avenues ... handed out like candy at the local planned parenthood or city clinics. So what 'rights', exactly, are the employees not getting?

And yes .. Freedom of Religion is a Constitutional right.
But free birth control is not.

Okay, so if someone is an Atheist, a Muslim, Jewish, etc., then they are subject to the religious beliefs of their employer because they knew the employer has a different religious preference? So, using YOUR logic, an Atheist employer can tell a Catholic not to pray at work because they knew ahead of time that the employer was Atheist so then they have to follow the beliefs of the Atheist. Makes sense.


I notice you didn't speak to my assertion of the Jehovah's Witness being able to send someone into eternal debt or even lose their life because an organ transplant goes against the JW's belief.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
All this uproar because someone wants less women to take birth control so that they have more and more children which can join the flock and pay their penance every time they "sin".

Oh lord .. could you have stuffed any more sterotypes into that sentence?

1 - The Catholic Church isn't withholding birth control from anyone. It's all out there for who ever wants it.

2 - People who work at Catholic Church hospitals aren't all Catholic. They are people of every faith. So the church isn't withholding birth control in these hospitals order to 'make more Catholics'. That's just silly.

3 - Catholics don't 'pay for penance' when they sin. There is no coin slot in the confessional. That's an old fundamentalist anti-Catholic bunch of hooooooey that they like to spread around.

You really should not get your education about Catholicism from Jack Chick tracts.

Penance is repentance of sins as well as the proper name of the Roman Catholic, Orthodox Christian, and Anglican Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation/Confession.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.newadvent.org...

Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest's absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same. It is called a "sacrament" not simply a function or ceremony, because it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to impart grace to the soul. As an outward sign it comprises the actions of the penitent in presenting himself to the priest and accusing himself of his sins, and the actions of the priest in pronouncing absolution and imposing satisfaction. This whole procedure is usually called, from one of its parts, "confession", and it is said to take place in the "tribunal of penance", because it is a judicial process in which the penitent is at once the accuser, the person accused, and the witness, while the priest pronounces judgment and sentence. The grace conferred is deliverance from the guilt of sin and, in the case of mortal sin, from its eternal punishment; hence also reconciliation with God, justification. Finally, the confession is made not in the secrecy of the penitent's heart nor to a layman as friend and advocate, nor to a representative of human authority, but to a duly ordained priest with requisite jurisdiction and with the "power of the keys", i.e., the power to forgive sins which Christ granted to His Church.

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
an Atheist employer can tell a Catholic not to pray at work because they knew ahead of time that the employer was Atheist so then they have to follow the beliefs of the Atheist.

If, by that Catholic praying, it somehow forces the Atheist run establishment not to be able to practice their religion, then that Catholic would not be allowed to pray.

But you'd have to show me how an Athiest, who doesn't believe in any religion, would run a business based on religion and would be stopped from practicing their religion, by someone who prays.

I notice you didn't speak to my assertion of the Jehovah's Witness ....

Sorry .. totally missed that one ... it's the end of the day and my eyes are going a bit buggy ..
That's a good question. Someone who is a Jehovahs Witness and is running a business hires someone who isn't Jehovah's Witness and that business manager doesn't want to provide insurance that covers things like blood transfusions etc .... Of the top of my head I'd say that the business should say it's a Jehovahs Witness business and that, as a matter of faith, the management can not pay for those things. The person looking for employment would then know if he/she wants to work there or not.

You are right .... small business' are also a part of this. I saw on the TV News today that Catholic small business' are upset with the Obama mandate as well as the big Catholic hospitals etc. The small business' are not part of the Church like the Catholic hospitals, clinics, orphanages and schools. But the owners of the small business would be forced to go against their faith as well. So Obama's mandate would also have put them out of business. that's what some of them were saying on the TV.

The mandate would force not only the churches but the small business owners to go against their religious beliefs. The mandate really would have caused issues in many places.

reply to post by PhantomLimb

I know that.

You said that the Church wants more and more people so it will have more and more people 'pay' for penance. As in .. more people means more money for the church when they go to confession to 'pay' for forgiveness. But Catholics don't 'pay' at the confessional. They don't 'pay' for forgiveness. And not all those who work in the Catholic hospitals etc are Catholic. Therefore, the hospitals are not 'withholding' birth control from anyone and they aren't trying to make a ton of Catholic babies to in order to get more money. Not with this situation anyways.

Side note - you might find this old thread of mine interesting ... Outbreeding the enemy


You didn't answer my question ... exactly what 'rights' are the employees not getting by the Catholic Church exercising it's first amendment rights???

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by PhantomLimb
an Atheist employer can tell a Catholic not to pray at work because they knew ahead of time that the employer was Atheist so then they have to follow the beliefs of the Atheist.

If, by that Catholic praying, it somehow forces the Atheist run establishment not to be able to practice their religion, then that Catholic would not be allowed to pray.

But you'd have to show me how an Athiest, who doesn't believe in any religion, would run a business based on religion and would be stopped from practicing their religion, by someone who prays.

I notice you didn't speak to my assertion of the Jehovah's Witness ....

Sorry .. totally missed that one ... it's the end of the day and my eyes are going a bit buggy ..

That's a good question. Someone who is a Jehovahs Witness and is running a business hires someone who isn't Jehovah's Witness and that business manager doesn't want to provide insurance that covers things like blood transfusions etc .... Of the top of my head I'd say that the business should say it's a Jehovahs Witness business and that, as a matter of faith, the management can not pay for those things. The person looking for employment would then know if he/she wants to work there or not.

You are right .... small business' are also a part of this. I saw on the TV News today that Catholic small business' are upset with the Obama mandate as well as the big Catholic hospitals etc. The small business' are not part of the Church like the Catholic hospitals, clinics, orphanages and schools. But the owners of the small business would be forced to go against their faith as well. So Obama's mandate would also have put them out of business. that's what some of them were saying on the TV.

The mandate would force not only the churches but the small business owners to go against their religious beliefs. The mandate really would have caused issues in many places.

Freedom of Religion also means freedom from religion.

The point is to separate church and state. There a simple legal and economic way to do that.
A democratic state CAN fund health care, and as long as not every citizen is pro-life, why not fund contraceptives for some?
There should be a religious option for pro-life religious members already in their paying taxes allocated for health care that exempts funding for birth control etc. Like, if I pay five dollars a day, a Plan C would allow my co-worker who is a self-declared Catholic to pay only four dollars and fifty cents, and declare them not to have paid the specific ratio of state health care that they find objectionable. The ratio should be adjusted year by year in accordance with statistics and prices and demand for such things.
Sounds simple enough?
If you are in Obamacare Plan C, your birth control pills or even counseling will NOT be covered by the State in case you choose to sin.

All this takes is a separate tax form - "Plan C" - designed for practicing Catholics and other pro-lifers. And, a ton or two more of paper. At least the Government could hire some more people (preferably pro-life employees) who would separate the two kinds of state insurance care (I guess it would not be a sin, rather a good deed to separate and process papers of pro-life believers from those that fall in the default category).

If I designed this, you would not have to declare publicly what you are to the Tax Office, you simply chose the Plan C if you want to - then you have less benefits and slightly less payments.

Originally posted by Still

Originally posted by Sharpenmycleats
This whole mess is an infringement on every US Citizen. The government should not be mandating anything on anyone. Sad that it takes organized religion to stand up to our government instead of the people.

What is being mandated on anyone?

Really, did you not read the post? Have you read anything, watched any television. It's called health insurance. 30 million American's that currently do not have it are being told to get it. Employers are being told to provide it. Seems like a mandate to me. The onky thing I find more ridiculous than the question is that people starred your post. Good Grief!

Originally posted by Kyprian
Like in AD 68, when Rome's secular laws decreed Jews must sacrifice to pagan gods?

You get 5 tries to win the big prize.

Can you guess what is wrong with that sentence?
Hint: Nothing secular about laws pertaining to gods.

Anywho...

There are times when religious belief outweighs secular law. Secular law in 1930's Germany said certain people were not worthy of life or liberty. Secular law in 1960's America said certain people were less human than other people.

Yup that sucked. So what religious law was more powerful in the 60s? Which religion, which law, and who declared it so and enforced it?

Seems like a specious argument to me.

If freedom is to mean anything, if we are to value religious freedom as much as other freedoms, than a law which tramples religious beliefs should, at the very least, be examined carefully.

Of course it should. Have anything like that? This is not that.

I don't necessarily agree with Notre dame - but I can see their point.

Just my two cents, at interest.

Can you help me see their point?

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by xuenchen

 

" Sterilizations "

sorry but that one creeps me out,,
and,, it is the first thing mentioned !

"plans in the United States must cover sterilizations",

Tomorrow's Children (1934) Mass Sterilization


www.youtube.com...

yaaa creeps me out big time.

1934,,,ring any bells??

Me.

So men getting vasectomies and women getting their tubes tied is now some scary Nazi conspiracy?

Originally posted by jibeho
Freedom of Religion under the First Amendment. The anti Catholics are crying foul yet this whole website has been up in arms over the looming fate of the Internet Regulations, Copyright infringement etc etc, Freedom of speech on the internet etc etc. Day after Day.

What religion are we talking about here?
I cannot find contraceptive plans being included with insurance in any Catholic bible.

In fact I have seen and asked more than once exactly what religious freedom is being trampled and I have yet to see a factual answer.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If, by that Catholic praying, it somehow forces the Atheist run establishment not to be able to practice their religion, then that Catholic would not be allowed to pray.

If you run a Catholic business and you cover my birth control in my insurance plan, how are you not able to practice your religion?

P.S. Does this Atheist get federal funding to stay open as the Catholic hospitals do?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by charles1952

 

Some/many people say birth control and abortion is a 'health care'.
Health care is a commodity. It isn't a 'right'.
That's just the ugly truth of it.
No one has a 'right' to health care in a captialist society.
It's a service, and goods, to be paid for

What a very Christian concept you present there.
You just killed the Catholic's argument for them.

Nice!

This is not a Catholic society.
A hospital is not a church.
That is just the ugly truth of it.

Originally posted by Kryties
Meanwhile..... while Americans are arguing over healthcare and spending themselves into oblivion to try and stay healthy.....we here in other western countries enjoy our free healthcare, not having to worry about how we will pay an exorbitant hospital bill and feed ourselves at the same time.

Enjoy your 'freedom' to either be sick or go broke.

Sad thing is you are absolutely right. This countries "government" provided health care is floating around on 11 aircraft carriers.

Still would not want to be anywhere else though.