Notre Dame Faculty to Obama: ‘This Is a Grave Violation of Religious Freedom and Cannot Stand’

Originally posted by Still
What rights are being taken away from Catholics by this.
Spell them each out specifically for me, please.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The right to control whether or not citizens have free access to birth control. No one is mandating that ANYONE take birth control, but by the way the religious are acting, the law is forcing abortions on them!

It's ridiculous.

Oh goodness. What's 'ridiculous' is that the two of you have been told this time and time again, but your anti-Catholic hate is just getting in the way of it sinking in. Sounds like the two of you are more interested in controling the Catholics then the Catholics are of controling you. ... okay .... repeating the same facts YET AGAIN ...

No one has been restricted from access to birth control. No one. That's absurd. BTW .. no one has a constitutional 'right' to free birth control pills. Birth control pills, and healthcare in general, are a COMMODITY. That's just the ugly truth of it. It's not a 'right' ... it's a commodity.

For those that supposedly are all worried about poor people - who chose of their own free will to work in Catholic hospitals - not being able to get birth control ( :shk: partisan deflection and spin), they can get their birth control and/or they can work elsewhere where the employer will give it out for free. It's very simple.

White House Birth Control Stats Don't Add Up

As Andrew McCarthy reports in a February 11 National Review article:

Planned Parenthood reports that birth-control pills run as low as $15 per month — and at the click of a mouse, PP will help you find a health center from which to get a prescription. Like the pill, diaphragms and the “Nuva Ring” start as low as $15 per month, and PP will work to get you set up with Medicaid or other state programs that defray costs — just as it will if you prefer the cervical cap route, which will set you back about $70 (with the spermicide 'kit') but, like a diaphragm, lasts about two years. Starting at $400, Implanon, a thin implant inserted in the arm, sounds costly at first blush, but it lasts for three years. Injections of Depo-Provera, the “birth control shot,” go for about 40 smackers, and they last three months. Condoms cost about a quarter, and aren't hard to find free

1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. Catholics have the right to practice their religion without the government passing laws to interfere with that. The Catholic Church hospitals, Catholic Church orphanages, Catholic Church clinics, Catholic Church schools are all part of the Catholic Church. They are CATHOLIC and are opened and operated by the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Catholic Church believes that artificial birth control and abortion are a grave sin. No Catholic is allowed to participate - IN ANY MANNER - with them. And .. as has been explained many times to you in detail BH ... it is a 'sin' for Catholics to assist others to sin. A Catholic who helps provide abortions or artificial birth control to others is just as guilty of that sin as the one directly doing it.

Example - If America pays Israel to bomb Iran. Israel is guilty of bombing Iran but so is America even though they didnt' fly the plane that dropped the bombs on Iran. Same thing.

Catholic Catechism teaching on Sin

1868 - Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers

Church law - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Part three, section two, chapter two

Catholic teaching on abortion/birth control

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997

Originally posted by FlyersFan
No Catholic is allowed to participate - IN ANY MANNER - with them.

With all those words, you still haven't said HOW the Catholics are "participating" in this.
They have nothing to do with the birth control coverage.
They don't provide it, they don't pay for it, they don't have ANYTHING to do with it.

Example - If America pays Israel to bomb Iran.

Catholics aren't paying for the birth control coverage. They have no connection to the birth control coverage. Didn't you see the picture?

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Still

 

What is being mandated on anyone?

Coverage for some forms of abortion is being mandated. It is in the OPs post:

President Barack Obama’s latest version of his administration’s mandate that all health insurance plans in the United States must cover sterilizations and all FDA-approved contraceptives, including those that cause abortions

I dont have an issue with this, as this is NOT a violation of religious freedom. Religion must conform to secular laws, not the other way around.

Like in AD 68, when Rome's secular laws decreed Jews must sacrifice to pagan gods? There are times when religious belief outweighs secular law. Secular law in 1930's Germany said certain people were not worthy of life or liberty. Secular law in 1960's America said certain people were less human than other people.

If freedom is to mean anything, if we are to value religious freedom as much as other freedoms, than a law which tramples religious beliefs should, at the very least, be examined carefully. I don't necessarily agree with Notre dame - but I can see their point.

Just my two cents, at interest.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Did you even read the opening article?

CNS News

“Once a religiously-affiliated (or believing individual) employer purchases insurance (as it must, by law), the insurance company will then contact the insured employees to advise them that the terms of the policy include coverage for these objectionable things. ....

Under the new rule, the government still coerces religious institutions and individuals to purchase insurance policies that include the very same services.

“The simple fact is that the Obama administration is compelling religious people and institutions who are employers to purchase a health insurance contract that provides abortion-inducing drugs, contraception, and sterilization,” the scholars said. “This is a grave violation of religious freedom and cannot stand. It is an insult to the intelligence of Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other people of faith and conscience to imagine that they will accept an assault on their religious liberty if only it is covered up by a cheap accounting trick.”

A few options I see to fix this ...

- Insurance companies could easily provide an opportunity to purchase insurance without the abortion-inducing drugs, contraception and sterilizaton included. It shouldn't be that hard. Just make a differnet package deal for anyone who wants them. Christian based groups and churches would want them. Probably Jewish and Muslim groups too. Last I heard - they object to abortion as well.

- Christian groups and churches (or anyone else for that matter) could pay employees extra $$$ so they can go buy their own insurance and not get it through the employer. Like an 'insurance allowance' in their pay. (But that would also mean increased insurance rates for those employees because they are getting a discount when insurance is bought in large groups.)

- Vote the idiots out of DC who are over reaching and power grabbing with anti-constitutional mandates.

- If you don't have 15$ a month to pay for 'the pill' (less than that actually, once the subsidies are added in) then don't go work for a place where you know you won't get that extra $15 a month paid for. Instead of a Catholic Church hospital, go work for a different place. Or tell your boy friend to use a 25 cent condom. Common sense.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I'll look into this more when I get back. I have a few appts this morning. My first thought is that CNS news is a foul source, but I will see what the actual law says. Later...

reply to post by xuenchen


" Sterilizations "

sorry but that one creeps me out,,
and,, it is the first thing mentioned !

"plans in the United States must cover sterilizations",

Tomorrow's Children (1934) Mass Sterilization


www.youtube.com...

yaaa creeps me out big time.

1934,,,ring any bells??

Me.

Originally posted by mastahunta
reply to post by xuenchen

 

So why can't people make the choice for them selves?

Why does a persons personal decision have to become fodder for political brinksmanship?

Well,

It seems the government laws are placing fines and possible jail time on some "choices".

That's why the issue is all about the Constitution.

Sure you can "choose" freely, but the consequences are not necessarily a choice.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My first thought is that CNS news is a foul source, but I will see what the actual law says.

a 'foul source'? That's just because it is Christian and they disagree with you politically.

Seriously though ... if the insurance companies were to provide health care coverage MINUS all the 'problems' (abortion, birth control, sterilization, abortificants) for these places to provide to employees, then I don't know why there would be a problem with it. If there was still a problem with some of those places .. if they said they don't want to pay into a system that in some way provides these at all, anywhere ... then I'd say -

- Those people may be just scrupulous (that's Catholic-eeze for scrubbing too deep looking for a sin that isn't there).

OR .. even better ...

- Those people should all get together and form some kind of Christian/Jewish/Muslim religious health insurance company that doesn't include those items and then provide THAT as the health care for the churches and religious organizations to use.

reply to post by Destinyone


I loved this post and a star is not enough for this one.
Here are a couple of these for you as well...

Freedom of Religion under the First Amendment. The anti Catholics are crying foul yet this whole website has been up in arms over the looming fate of the Internet Regulations, Copyright infringement etc etc, Freedom of speech on the internet etc etc. Day after Day.

We are talking about the same amendment here folks. Imagine if all news stories that we read on a daily basis were all generated from a single source within the White House. If you're a fan of Media Matters you know all about that. I think there would be certain outrage. Don't you?

Obama is playing games and is deliberately driving the wedge into this nation in as many cracks as he can either find or create. Period. In an election year, you have to wonder what is truly motivating him is he so willing to go to task on this issue and to potentially alienate millions of potential voters from his support network.

Obama's latest compromise is just more chicanery.

"This President is tone deaf to the very real religious and moral objections of millions of Americans. The so-called one year delay last month was a clear slap in the face of religious groups, and this new proposal still requires religious entities that are not exempt as a church to subsidize and pay insurance companies so they can give free birth control to their employees. However, it won't be free, because the insurance companies will increase the premium and administrative costs to the employer.

"This new gimmick forces religious entities to violate their religious beliefs and continues to show a complete disdain for the First Amendment. There is no compromise if a single American citizen is required to violate his or her conscience. Liberals say keep your morals out of the bedroom, yet the President's plan forces everyone to pay the cost for someone else's contraceptive use in the bedroom. That's not freedom, it's a mandate.

This is from CNS!! Suck it and try not to choke!!
cnsnews.com...

reply to post by FlyersFan

1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. Catholics have the right to practice their religion without the government passing laws to interfere with that.

Its not that simple, because according to this naive logic, anyone would be able to do anything they want as long as they proclaimed it a part of their religion.

Here is a guide for you to better understand the 1st amendment:

Unconstitutional: Catholic employers must provide abortion coverage.

Constitutional: Every employer must provide abortion coverage.

This is what 1st amendment really means.

Originally posted by Maslo
Unconstitutional: Catholic employers must provide abortion coverage.
Constitutional: Every employer must provide abortion coverage.
This is what 1st amendment really means.

Not even close.
The First Amendment

The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances

Obama's unconstitutional law impedes Catholics (and all pro-lifers really - Protestant, Jewish, Muslim) from the free exercise of their religion. Their religion includes being pro-life. It has nothing to do with making some get insurance and not others ... or making everyone all do the same thing with insurance. It has to do with impeding the free exercise of religious beliefs.

This should be of concern to everyone .. not just those who have religions that are prolife.
(paraphrasing that famous saying ... )
First the came for the homosexuals ... but I wasn't homosexual so I didn't care.
Then they came for the Catholics ... but I wasn't Catholic so I didn't care.
Then they came for me ... but there was no one left to save me.

Obama's War on the Catholic Church

Quote from FlyersFan

The Catholic Church believes that artificial birth control and abortion are a grave sin. No Catholic is allowed to participate - IN ANY MANNER - with them. And .. as has been explained many times to you in detail BH ... it is a 'sin' for Catholics to assist others to sin. A Catholic who helps provide abortions or artificial birth control to others is just as guilty of that sin as the one directly doing it.

What this tells me, is that women who don't want to get pregnant, married or not, should just stop having sex. Period. So many families cannot afford children, cannot even afford prenatal care, with the jobs situation in the US. The last thing people can afford these days, is to "go forth and multiply". Spilling out a baby a year, is even frowned on, unless the person is rich enough to not need welfare.

Pull out methods have been proven to NOT work. Sex at certain times of the month only, may also result in pregnancy. If birth control is such a sin, maybe women should just stop putting out entirely, and we'll see how well that works out.

When I watch this fiasco on the US news, it seems to me that women's rights are being infringed upon, although women have never been seen as equal in the views of the church. Religion supposedly trumps everything.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. Catholics have the right to practice their religion without the government passing laws to interfere with that.

Its not that simple, because according to this naive logic, anyone would be able to do anything they want as long as they proclaimed it a part of their religion.

Here is a guide for you to better understand the 1st amendment:

Unconstitutional: Catholic employers must provide abortion coverage.

Constitutional: Every employer must provide abortion coverage.

This is what 1st amendment really means.

Well,

How do we explain all the waivers and exemptions that have been handed out so far ?

Muslim, Amish, etc.

They have created a Catch-22.

The whole HC law has furthered public confusion.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Health bills allow some a religious exemption


Amish families exempt from insurance mandate


exemptions bill's language

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dear FlyersFan,

Wow! You don't happen to be a Chesterton fan? You're orthodox, a fighter, and not crazy. SuperHero!

Anyway, back to work.

Insurance companies could easily provide an opportunity to purchase insurance without the abortion-inducing drugs, contraception and sterilizaton included. It shouldn't be that hard. Just make a differnet package deal for anyone who wants them. Christian based groups and churches would want them. Probably Jewish and Muslim groups too.

I may have mentioned this before, but before Obamacare, employers could escape paying for contraceptive and abortifacient treatment in one of two ways. Don't offer any prescription coverage to any employee, or don't offer insurance at all. They might not have been great solutions, but they were available.

By not offering any insurance, groups could implement your second solution without trouble, by giving the premium money to the employee.

And there are groups anxious to get as much contraceptive medication out to the public as requested, so I don't see a big problem there.

The part that frustrates me, and perhaps you, was that the system was running along, until D.C. said you have to be involved in something morally repugnant to you. Something you've never had to do before.

My parents are native born Canadians. I may have to look into their laws if we get another four years.
(Please escuse the politics, but as I say, I'm frustrated. So frustrated I'll even use an emoticon. )

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles...I like your idea of giving the employee the option to opt out of the company insurance, and the premium the employer would pay towards insurance, going to the employee to find their own insurance.

This would circumvent Obama's unhealth care plan to eventually put the insurance companies out of business, thus making the government the only healthcare available to everyone.

Something to think about....

Des

Originally posted by snowspirit
it seems to me that women's rights are being infringed upon,

Not at all. Catholic women have a right to folllow the church law or not. They have a right to leave the church any time they want. All women who have chosen to work for the Church have a right to leave that employment anytime they want and to seek employment elsewhere. They all have a right to walk into any planned parenthood building or free clinic and pick up a handful of condoms (for 25 cents each) or get their $15 a month birth control pills (at even a reduced rate once the subsidies are kicked in). No rights of women are infringed upon at all.

The only rights being infringed upon are the rights of prolife Catholics (and protestants, jews and muslims) to practice their faith. The Catholic Church has a right not to participate in something that is against it's religion. The Constitution says so.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dear FlyersFan,

It seems that there is an idea getting confused here.

Could someone explain where a woman has a basic "right" to free contraceptives? Not, maybe it would be nice to have, but it's not a right like speech or be free from unreasonable search and seizure. There's an even more fundamental thing that people should have and that's food, clothes, and shelter. There's no right to those things. Writing a regulation (which may very well be unconstitutional) does not create a "right."I can see that freedom of religion (and the oh, so famous, separation of church and state) are in play here on the side of protecting religious institutions. But what right is there that overpowers these?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

a 'foul source'? That's just because it is Christian and they disagree with you politically.

No, I didn't know they were religious. I have just seen many stories on that site that either aren't true or have a strong bias (like WND)

Seriously though ... if the insurance companies were to provide health care coverage MINUS all the 'problems' (abortion, birth control, sterilization, abortificants) for these places to provide to employees, then I don't know why there would be a problem with it.

I don't either. And I don't know why there's still a problem.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Obama's unconstitutional law impedes Catholics (and all pro-lifers really - Protestant, Jewish, Muslim) from the free exercise of their religion. Their religion includes being pro-life.

How? They're still allowed to be pro-life.

You keep saying that it impedes the free exercise of religious beliefs, but it doesn't. The Catholics are free to exercise their religious beliefs. No one is changing their beliefs. No one is forcing Catholics to do anything.

I'm done with this nonsense. It's just like the birthers. Something people grasp onto because they don't like Obama.