Derby men guilty over gay hate leaflets, page 2

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reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:05 AM by Freeborn

reply to post by forklift

I'm certainly not going to excuse the actions of any of the extremists but to say they've all had it handed on a plate is a bit unfair.

They definately seem to have a chip on their shoulder but there has certainly been an amount of marginalisation, for various reasons - some of which they have brought on themselves, racism and bigotry that have contributed.

What really annoys me is the complete lack of self-responsibility they seem to have and how people make excuses for them and can't see how they are trying to use our very own value s and freedoms to deny us thus self same values and freedoms.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:11 AM by Freeborn

reply to post by staticarium

Where can we deport them to?

If they aren't a citizen of another country who is going to accept them.

A lot of these extremists origins maybe in places like Pakistan but that doesn't mean to say that Pakistan has any legal responsibility to accept them.

As much as I'd be tempted to just set them adrift in the ocean with the barest of essentials that is morally and ethically unacceptable and impossible.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:15 AM by staticarium

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by staticarium

Where can we deport them to?

If they aren't a citizen of another country who is going to accept them.

A lot of these extremists origins maybe in places like Pakistan but that doesn't mean to say that Pakistan has any legal responsibility to accept them.

As much as I'd be tempted to just set them adrift in the ocean with the barest of essentials that is morally and ethically unacceptable and impossible.

Who said anything about accepting them? Dump them back in Pakistan and let the Pakistanis deal with it.

You talk about setting them adrift, if I am not mistaken, is this not the standard method of repatriation used by Australia?

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:24 AM by Freeborn

reply to post by staticarium

And how do you propose we 'just dump them' there?

Whether we like it or not, I for one do not like it, we have to accept that these are British citizens and must be dealt with in accordance with British law.
If our law is deemed too lenient then we must force the law makers to draft laws that we the people see fit.

As for Australia I think that was a one off incident involving Cambodian boat people who were illegally seeking entry into Australia and not Australian citizens - a massive difference.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and sympathise with the sentiments but if we are to moralise about the adherence to international law then we have to abide by international law.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:29 AM by staticarium

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by staticarium

And how do you propose we 'just dump them' there?

Whether we like it or not, I for one do not like it, we have to accept that these are British citizens and must be dealt with in accordance with British law.
If our law is deemed too lenient then we must force the law makers to draft laws that we the people see fit.

As for Australia I think that was a one off incident involving Cambodian boat people who were illegally seeking entry into Australia and not Australian citizens - a massive difference.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and sympathise with the sentiments but if we are to moralise about the adherence to international law then we have to abide by international law.

You are the reason why we have these problems. If people stopped thinking about their "rights" and morality, we wouldn't have Islamic extremism. No, I'm sorry they need to be returned to wherever it is their family came from, and if that country wont accept them, then they can stop receiving financial aid.

edit on 21-1-2012 by staticarium because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:34 AM by Laurauk

reply to post by staticarium

Under EU Laws you cannot do that, nowadays, if they are British born and brought up. We cannot even deport a so called Al Qaeda Terrorist.

As for the sentences lets hope it fights the despicable crime which was carried out. Now what would have members stated if someone had been murdered as a result of these leaflets.

I am just glad these laws were brought into the UK years ago. Although it has taken this incident for the Authorities to finally act on this hatred sprouted by those who claim to represent religion.

Let this be a warning to others who think they can use false religious doctrines to spout their hatred towards others in the UK whom are just trying to live their lives.

Yes there is a right to free speech before anyone fires back and states such as this but there is a difference between using freedom of speech as a tool and calling for someone to be killed.

edit on 21-1-2012 by Laurauk because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 06:49 AM by Freeborn

reply to post by staticarium

You are the reason why we have these problems. If people stopped thinking about their "rights" and morality, we wouldn't have Islamic extremism. No, I'm sorry they need to be returned to wherever it is their family came from, and if that country wont accept them, then they can stop receiving financial aid.

Listen, I am most definately NOT the reason we have these problems - you know absolutely nothing about me so stop making stupid assumptions that just make you look like an idiot.

Read my posts and stop being just as much an ignorant extremist as they are.

IMO the reason for Islamic extremism is Islam itself - it is an extreme and odious religion.

But that is not the point here.

How can we moralise about rights and adherence to law if we choose to ignore them when it suits?
All it does it create further justification for their hatred and bigotry.

The simple fact is that Pakistan wouldn't let us 'dump them there'.
So what do we do, create an international incident with the UK condemned by literally every other country in the world?
How on earth would that help the situation?
For every homegrown extremist we'd illegally 'repatriate' we'd create ten more.

I don't have all the answers.
But a massive starting point would be new immigration laws reflecting the wishes and needs of the country and it's people and the imposition oif suitable sentences for ANY hate crime.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 07:16 AM by forklift

Originally posted by staticarium

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by staticarium

No, I'm sorry they need to be returned to wherever it is their family came from, and if that country wont accept them, then they can stop receiving financial aid.

That would open a whole new can of worms if the government decides to take that route.

For example, people with an African ancestry should be deported too if they are involved in crimes in UK?

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 07:27 AM by InfoKartel

reply to post by staticarium

You are the reason why we have these problems. If people stopped thinking about their "rights" and morality, we wouldn't have Islamic extremism. No, I'm sorry they need to be returned to wherever it is their family came from, and if that country wont accept them, then they can stop receiving financial aid.

I bet you're the type that's not careful while you're shaving your head each morning.

Also, no sociological knowledge which sends you even further from home regarding this case.

What you fail to grasp is, that you have become who you hate, ideologically speaking. You have started hating just as bad as these Muslim dumbasses have.

If you guys only knew half the story you would just laugh and shrug it off every time these so called gays...I mean Christians/Muslims/Jews...speak out against homosexuality. There, that was a hint you can use to analyze (

) these overly religious folk.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 11:00 AM by The1Prettiest1One

Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
Two wrongs don't make a right. You're assuming that all Muslims feel the same as these two idiots.

It's better not to take any chances, wouldn't you agree? If there are no Muslims, then no Muslims can cause trouble now no matter how few of them would try, correct?

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 12:20 PM by FlyingSpaghettiMonster

Originally posted by The1Prettiest1One

Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
Two wrongs don't make a right. You're assuming that all Muslims feel the same as these two idiots.

It's better not to take any chances, wouldn't you agree? If there are no Muslims, then no Muslims can cause trouble now no matter how few of them would try, correct?

'If there were no Muslims'. And how exactly do you intend to achieve that? More to the point, why are you picking on Muslims and ignoring the extremists of any other or no religion? Why not outlaw Catholicism to solve the terrorist bombings and shootings still taking place in Northern Ireland?

I'm atheist, and the attitude toward sexuality of the largest religions is a strong element in my reasons for being so. But you will find many Christians, Jews, Muslims etc etc who do not follow the most bigoted and extreme parts of their religion. Try to remember that holding a religious faith doesn't make you a soldier for a single point of view. There are many different types of Islam, with varying ideas about how to live.It's just a vicious minority making as much noise as possible.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 12:33 PM by Wertdagf

reply to post by Propulsion

Id say that the small percentage of people who originaly come up with the idea of murder suicide for religious reasons spend all their time convincing the moderate to kill themselves and others.

So we have 1500 muslims who spend everyday trying to get moderates to please god by murdering babies and children. Its the same with All other religions.

reply posted on 21-1-2012 @ 12:51 PM by The1Prettiest1One

Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
'If there were no Muslims'. And how exactly do you intend to achieve that?

Internment camps and cutting-edge heat exchanger technology. It could help ameliorate some energy issues for awhile too. You're saying you don't want, or don't want others to be relieved of the inconveniences of rolling blackouts in the hot summer months? The humanity! My God. Just think of all the elderly people that might as well think you have contempt for them. Are you going to drive the ambulance when they go to the hospital for heat stroke? I didn't think so. You just sit there from your comfy chair and go on about how great it is to have Muslims in the world! Never mind all the needless suffering from power outages.

More to the point, why are you picking on Muslims and ignoring the extremists of any other or no religion?

Currently they pose the most imminent and anachronistic threat in an age where they too can kill at the push of a button. Would you want nuclear crusaders? Think about it.

Why not outlaw Catholicism to solve the terrorist bombings and shootings still taking place in Northern Ireland?

That still sounds like a good idea, even if they calmed down a bit since all the buring at the stake stuff. Worse, the inquisitors killed cats. Guess what they got for it?

I'm atheist, and the attitude toward sexuality of the largest religions is a strong element in my reasons for being so. But you will find many Christians, Jews, Muslims etc etc who do not follow the most bigoted and extreme parts of their religion.

As time goes on, I expect they won't have much left to follow as each is distilled into its most important and key lessons. To put it another way, they will (re)join at the apex.

Try to remember that holding a religious faith doesn't make you a soldier for a single point of view.

Then what is the purpose of it? That's exactly what it's for!

There are many different types of Islam, with varying ideas about how to live.It's just a vicious minority making as much noise as possible.

Again with the caution. It's just best none be there at all. If they don't accept Jesus, it certainly is justified.

FSM, tsk, tsk! You know better. You clearly are longing for the touch of his noodley appendance but he just spurns you over and over again!

reply posted on 22-1-2012 @ 03:18 AM by FlyingSpaghettiMonster

reply to post by The1Prettiest1One

You seem to have given up debating the point and instead just take the piss. Why? Run out of arguments? Come on, engage with the debate. Properly.

reply posted on 22-1-2012 @ 11:12 AM by The1Prettiest1One

Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by The1Prettiest1One

You seem to have given up debating the point and instead just take the piss. Why? Run out of arguments? Come on, engage with the debate. Properly.

What debate? The piss never ends and never really began; it is timeless and ever-flowing yet never the same. And no, I'm just not using any arguments; I keep them to myself because I know it's pointless to try to convince anyone of anything unless you're being prosecuted before a jury of your alleged peers.

Anyway, I did make the mistake of addressing some points in my previous post and consider your concept of religion fundamentally incompatible with mine, so I don't see how anything constructive can come out of this

I suppose I'll go ahead and screw up some more.

If people would stop being such a bunch of philistines and discover higher interpretations of the very same text, they might find the real jihad is with their own nature rather than being a justification for letting their own darkest impluses loose upon the world. They may also discover that there would be more than enough to occupy their time and they wouldn't be able to fit much death and destruction into their schedules.

edit on 1/22/2012 by The1Prettiest1One because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 22-1-2012 @ 10:41 PM by zorgon

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
But what is perhaps interesting is that these guys are moslems -

Muslim in Arabic means "one who gives himself to God" and by therefore is by definition someone who adheres to Islam.

But Moslem in Arabic means "one who is evil and unjust" when the word is pronounced in English as Mozlem.

www.democracyforums.com...

I assume you are using 'moslem' in the later context?

reply posted on 22-1-2012 @ 11:06 PM by Aloysius the Gaul

reply to post by zorgon

No - I'm writing in English and not Arabic.

In English Moslem, Muslim, and various other mis-spellings are synonyms for someone following religion known as islam or mohammedanism or various other things.

I do not speak or write Arabic.

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