Buddha and Lao Tzu

Buddha and Lao Tzu, both being great teachers, largely influenced many civilizations in Asia, Daoism and Buddhism are one of the main religions in ancient times and have many followers.

Those are also very mysterious, we do not know much about Buddha and Lao Tzu. Was there any connection between them? Have they ever met each other? Are they the same person? One person?

Here is a story. This is not my theory or my finding, I will just give you the facts I know, the ones I've read.

It is said that at birth, Lao Tzu was born out of his mother's armpit. On the other side, Buddha's mother in Lumbini gave birth to him as he came out of her armpit. Whether this is a misunderstood technology or whatever else is of no importance, the myths are completely, and I mean completely identical of both of Lao Tzu's and Buddha's birth. Birth is very important so this is not to be joked with, it was the most important part of their lives when they take life, and myths of their birth match.

Other thing is, when Lao Tzu reached immortality and enlightenment he went to travel, it is said that he traveled to the west. There, when approaching a border, he met a soldier, a gatekeeper. He talked to him and after a conversation he gave him a book he wrote, it was Dao De Jing. After the gatekeeper asked him "Where are you going now?" Lao Tzu answered that he is heading to offer salvation for people beyond that border.

Okay, first thing, we have a claim that he went towards the west, very important information. Even more amazing thing is that we have a claim he reached a border! Hey! BORDER! So he did not go to the western part of China, but to a land on the western part! Yet we have a claim that he, HIMSELF, said he was going to that land, so he can offer them salvation, as his work was probably done in China.

Now, I ask, was Buddha actually Lao Tzu or did Lao Tzu teach Buddha? It is probably one of the two, but how can we know, for God's sake?

Truth is somewhere, winds may take it to us.

I wish you all to say what do you think about this, I would especially appreciate comments of the ones who actually studied Buddhism and Daoism well.

No ignorant or hostile comments, we shall discuss this in peace and cooperation.

reply to post by Zander2533


Interesting theory, I have always wondered about this region.

Thank you for sharing

The Buddha's Dharma and Laozhu's Tao share many similarities, but Laozhu came much time after Buddha, and his Tao also has many differences from the teachings of the Buddha. But any serious student of Eastern philosophy and thought systems should look at all of them, even Hindu, Confucius, and Shinto.

Originally posted by Truth4Thought
reply to post by Zander2533

 

Interesting theory, I have always wondered about this region.

Thank you for sharing

Thank you for commenting. We need to discuss and talk about this thus we can understand more as we share our knowledge. There is definitely a connection between them.

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
The Buddha's Dharma and Laozhu's Tao share many similarities, but Laozhu came much time after Buddha, and his Tao also has many differences from the teachings of the Buddha. But any serious student of Eastern philosophy and thought systems should look at all of them, even Hindu, Confucius, and Shinto.

Lao Tzu was born in 7th century B.C. and Buddha in 6th century B.C. so Lao Tzu is older than Buddha, not vice versa.

There are many similarities between Daoism and Buddhism, on example Daoism teaches to respect nature, while Buddhism teaches not to harm any living being and to respect nature too. And then their birth as I've said before matches 100%

You are right about studying and researching connection between other religions but it would be easier if we go step by step, not two - three steps at the same time. Things might become complicated.


Thank you for commenting.

Sorry then, I was mistaken. Also, I meant taking your own time to look at all sides. Buddhism compliments Christianity, just as Hindu compliments Islam and Islam compliments Judaism, so on and so forth. No path is greater, as long as you follow truth.

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
Sorry then, I was mistaken. Also, I meant taking your own time to look at all sides. Buddhism compliments Christianity, just as Hindu compliments Islam and Islam compliments Judaism, so on and so forth. No path is greater, as long as you follow truth.

No worries about that.

I study many religions and compare them, what I meant is that on particularly this topic we shall stick to Buddha and Lao Tzu. I might post some more topics about connection between other religions. However I'm informed about Buddha and Lao Tzu more than I'm informed about other teachers.

reply to post by Zander2533


This is the first time i have heard about Buddha being born out of his mother's arm pit.

Buddha never went anywhere but roamed around northern part of the indian sub continent.

Originally posted by coredrill
reply to post by Zander2533

 

This is the first time i have heard about Buddha being born out of his mother's arm pit.

Buddha never went anywhere but roamed around northern part of the indian sub continent.

If you read about Buddha's birth you will read that it's been said he was born out of his mothers armpit.

And it wasn't Buddha that traveled to the west, but Lao Tzu was. And that's how he, when arriving in Lumbini, was known as Buddha, or he taught a man named Buddha. That's a theory, we cannot know 100% if this is true but we can discuss it and see if it might be possible.

reply to post by Zander2533


I dont know.
I have read many books on Buddha, have been to Bodhgaya (during the time i worked in Bihar, in India), have had buddhist friends in Kolkatta (in West Bengal, India), discussed with them and of course his life has been taught in school, but i never have heard about this aspect of Buddha's birth.

Could you provide me some links pertaining to this Birth from Arm pit stuff? its quite intriguing.

Originally posted by coredrill
reply to post by Zander2533

 

I dont know.
I have read many books on Buddha, have been to Bodhgaya (during the time i worked in Bihar, in India), have had buddhist friends in Kolkatta (in West Bengal, India), discussed with them and of course his life has been taught in school, but i never have heard about this aspect of Buddha's birth.

Could you provide me some links pertaining to this Birth from Arm pit stuff? its quite intriguing.

www.iep.utm.edu...

This link. It is one of many. If you search and study further it might appear even more convincing.

reply to post by Zander2533

Nice idea, but they may have both been awakened ones, but the birth origin (arm pit) is not true. None the less, we can never be sure about history. What we can do is read there teachings and from them realize that someone very special was on earth and gifted us with their experience and that's meaningful. Their approaches to teaching were very different, more than likely because of the culture where they taught.As I looked deeper in to any persons life, I found that the time that they were born , was less and less relevant. Only their teachings really remain and even they are updated.

Originally posted by ancientthunder
reply to post by Zander2533

 

Nice idea, but they may have both been awakened ones, but the birth origin (arm pit) is not true. None the less, we can never be sure about history. What we can do is read there teachings and from them realize that someone very special was on earth and gifted us with their experience and that's meaningful. Their approaches to teaching were very different, more than likely because of the culture where they taught.As I looked deeper in to any persons life, I found that the time that they were born , was less and less relevant. Only their teachings really remain and even they are updated.

Where did you get the idea that armpit birth is not true? It is a myth about both Buddha and Lao Tzu, if you studied Buddhim and Daoism you would understand that. You can find it anywhere.

And why do you thing their teachings are different? They both taught nature respect ethics and moral. I hope I wont need to repeat that a thousand times more. Do some research and you will see.

I gave a source on that armpit story here, if you do some research you will see other resources. But if you think it's not true then you give me a source that will convince me it's not true...

Lao Tzu and Buddha lived in different times, and the only thing we know about Lao Tzu is what he written in the Tao Te Ching. It's just a Myth that he was born that way.

Also, the teachings are different...

Buddha taught to get rid of desire to free oneself to get to enlightenment and die and go to nirvana so that you won't have to keep getting born and dying again and again.

Lao Tzu taught to go with the flow of nature. Going with the flow, simplicity, and living in moderation is what is best, and going against nature will result in difficulty/complexity.

They both taught Compassion (Love) which is apparent in all religions.

Originally posted by arpgme
Lao Tzu and Buddha lived in different times, and the only thing we know about Lao Tzu is what he written in the Tao Te Ching. It's just a Myth that he was born that way.

Also, the teachings are different...

Buddha taught to get rid of desire to free oneself to get to enlightenment and die and go to nirvana so that you won't have to keep getting born and dying again and again.

Lao Tzu taught to go with the flow of nature. Going with the flow, simplicity, and living in moderation is what is best, and going against nature will result in difficulty/complexity.

They both taught Compassion (Love) which is apparent in all religions.

It seems you failed to understand. Also it seems you haven't carefully read my thread.

Lao Tzu reached immortality and enlightenment so he could live very long, anyway if he did not reach immortality he actually might be born again, but as Buddha. There are so many variations about that.

There is a myth in two different lands about two teachers. Both myths say they were born out of armpit, those myths are 100% identical. It is the best proof about their connection.

Now, about similarity between Lao Tzu's and Buddha's teachings. They both respected nature and taught respect towards nature, they both taught to get away from desires and enlighten oneself. And even more interesting thing is that a quote about "conquering yourself instead of others" comes from both Buddhism and Daoism. I think that is similar enough.

Anyway, thanks for commenting...

That's an interesting theory that he may have come back as The Buddha. That is possible, I guess.

But Buddha taught to gain enlightenment but having compassion and letting go of desire.

Lao Tzu said that going with the Flow/Tao IS enlightenment. The wise-men are wise because they understand the way...

However...

Lao Tzu said that being with desire and being without desire comes from the same source. Without desire you see the mysteries and with desire you see its boundaries/manifestations.

He was not teaching to give up desire, just to go with the flow and to even accept desire when it comes. He did not see it as "unenlightening" or "wrong" to have desire. Just different.

Originally posted by arpgme
That's an interesting theory that he may have come back as The Buddha. That is possible, I guess.

But Buddha taught to gain enlightenment but having compassion and letting go of desire.

Lao Tzu said that going with the Flow/Tao IS enlightenment. The wise-men are wise because they understand the way...

However...

Lao Tzu said that being with desire and being without desire comes from the same source. Without desire you see the mysteries and with desire you see its boundaries/manifestations.

He was not teaching to give up desire, just to go with the flow and to even accept desire when it comes. He did not see it as "unenlightening" or "wrong" to have desire. Just different.

Here are a few quotes that might tell you what I mean.

Lao Tzu: "To conquer others takes force, to conquer yourself is true wisdom"
Buddha: "It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles, then the victory is yours, it cannot be taken from you, not by angels or demons, heaven or hell.
Similar, eh?

Lao Tzu:"Manifest plainness,
Embrace simplicity,
Reduce selfishness,
Have few desires."

Lao Tzu"There is no calamity greater than lavish desires.
There is no greater guilt than discontentment.
And there is no greater disaster than greed."

These quotes are same as Buddhist ones that talk about desire. I recommend you to read a bit of Dao De Jing, there you will understand how close Lao Tzu is to Buddha.

I don't know if Buddha and Lao Tzu could be the same person...

Buddha is from Indian sub continent
Lao Tzu is Chinese

Buddha traveled East/South East (within Asia)
Lao Tzu traveled west?

There is also Bodhi Dharma, he was around 5-6 AD, also the inventor of Shaolin Kung Fu and heis from Indian Sub Continent, he also travled to East.

I hope more may share their knowledge. It's always good to understand perspectives.

Rather than to rely on myths, mankind do have historical facts to rely on.

Buddha was an actual mortal that lived during the time of 400BC in India. His name was Siddhārtha Gautama, born into a royal family, shielded from the harshness of life till he ventured out on his own for years in search for the truth on existential conditions of humans.

He finally went into deep meditation for a number of days, and 'somehow' found enlightenment. Many present day humans would simply claimed that he must have lost his mind after such deep meditations. However, when he began his teachings, it made so much sense to many, with advices that actually worked even today, such claims of insanity are misplaced or even misinformed.

What he taught was basically A WAY OF LIFE. He promoted no religion, but only how mankind can live and co-exist, and progress within a civilised society. He never claimed that there was no Creator or the divine, but only that there are no intermediaries between man and Creator, similar in this manner to what the Islamic prophet Muhammad had taught.

When he died, he reminded his disciples that there should be no leader, just as the Messiah and the prophet Muhammad had done, each human to simply follow the teachings taught. He, like many divine teachers sent to Earth, knew the greed and corruption of humanity, espacially the greed of power that corrupts absolutely, thus such reminders.

Lao Zi came from China during the time of 500BC. China's historical records showed that it was already a flourishing society, but still at the evolutionary stage just like India then with the enslaving caste system being the central pillar.

What he taught was similar in many ways to Buddha's teachings - a way of life and freedom for the masses needing no leader but only one's self cultivation of conscience to contribute to society.

Did every one of those divine teachers succeed in changing mankind? Caste system Monarchy has ended, tyrannies such as USSR had fallen,etc. The influence is there, but the end result of a better society and civilisation is yet to come, and with an internet wired to a better informed and educated world, that day will arrive soon.

Originally posted by luciddream
I don't know if Buddha and Lao Tzu could be the same person...

Buddha is from Indian sub continent
Lao Tzu is Chinese

Buddha traveled East/South East (within Asia)
Lao Tzu traveled west?

There is also Bodhi Dharma, he was around 5-6 AD, also the inventor of Shaolin Kung Fu and heis from Indian Sub Continent, he also travled to East.

It is possible that they've actually been the same person, just read my thread carefully and you'll see why.

And no, it's not true that Da Mo (Bodhidharma) created Shaolin Gongfu, Gongfu existed long time ago, in meditation form (Qi Gong) mixed with martial form (Jiao Di) that was created by Yellow Emperor (3 millennium B.C.). Yet even more forms of Gongfu (lots of them) existed before Da Mo. What Da Mo did was using Qi Gong and Buddhist meditation to create muscle/tendon meditation used still today, but he did not create Gongfu. That is off topic anyway.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I hope more may share their knowledge. It's always good to understand perspectives.

Rather than to rely on myths, mankind do have historical facts to rely on.

Buddha was an actual mortal that lived during the time of 400BC in India. His name was Siddhārtha Gautama, born into a royal family, shielded from the harshness of life till he ventured out on his own for years in search for the truth on existential conditions of humans.

He finally went into deep meditation for a number of days, and 'somehow' found enlightenment. Many present day humans would simply claimed that he must have lost his mind after such deep meditations. However, when he began his teachings, it made so much sense to many, with advices that actually worked even today, such claims of insanity are misplaced or even misinformed.

What he taught was basically A WAY OF LIFE. He promoted no religion, but only how mankind can live and co-exist, and progress within a civilised society. He never claimed that there was no Creator or the divine, but only that there are no intermediaries between man and Creator, similar in this manner to what the Islamic prophet Muhammad had taught.

When he died, he reminded his disciples that there should be no leader, just as the Messiah and the prophet Muhammad had done, each human to simply follow the teachings taught. He, like many divine teachers sent to Earth, knew the greed and corruption of humanity, espacially the greed of power that corrupts absolutely, thus such reminders.

Lao Zi came from China during the time of 500BC. China's historical records showed that it was already a flourishing society, but still at the evolutionary stage just like India then with the enslaving caste system being the central pillar.

What he taught was similar in many ways to Buddha's teachings - a way of life and freedom for the masses needing no leader but only one's self cultivation of conscience to contribute to society.

Did every one of those divine teachers succeed in changing mankind? Caste system Monarchy has ended, tyrannies such as USSR had fallen,etc. The influence is there, but the end result of a better society and civilisation is yet to come, and with an internet wired to a better informed and educated world, that day will arrive soon.

edit on 12-1-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)

I hope our day for correcting our planet will come, and yes Internet and smart use of Internet would be very, very good actually excellent. Smart use of it shall happen here, on ATS. People use Internet here very well.

And yes, relying on historical fact is better but hey, they've thought Xia dynasty was a myth, until they've found a proof that it existed. I hope these myths about Buddha and Lao Tzu will be confirmed and acknowledged as a historical fact too.

Hey people, i am not an expert on the subject but in my reaserch i have found that there are more than one Buddha.I think Buddhas are more ancient than we think,dating back to before the big flood (13 000-10 000 BC)Reincarnation being one of buddism main belief (sorry for the mistakes,english is not my first language) I understand why a great teacher would have to come back again and again since we ingorant humans dont listen.

Now buddism was created from the teachings of siddharta gautama (he actually didnt create this religion) its possible that he may have met Lao Tzu since they were around the same area almost in the same time if i,m not mistaken, but i doubt that they may have been the same person unless Lao Tzu had a longer life than most humans.

Its complicated really to conclude on this subject since there are many stories about Lao Tzu and Buddha and the timeline is really not the same depending on which historian your reading.