Buddha and Lao Tzu

Originally posted by guidethusprotect
Hey people, i am not an expert on the subject but in my reaserch i have found that there are more than one Buddha.I think Buddhas are more ancient than we think,dating back to before the big flood (13 000-10 000 BC)Reincarnation being one of buddism main belief (sorry for the mistakes,english is not my first language) I understand why a great teacher would have to come back again and again since we ingorant humans dont listen.

Now buddism was created from the teachings of siddharta gautama (he actually didnt create this religion) its possible that he may have met Lao Tzu since they were around the same area almost in the same time if i,m not mistaken, but i doubt that they may have been the same person unless Lao Tzu had a longer life than most humans.

Its complicated really to conclude on this subject since there are many stories about Lao Tzu and Buddha and the timeline is really not the same depending on which historian your reading.

I like your comment, on example not just Buddhism, but Daoism too is more ancient than we think it is, it is believed that it is connected to the Yellow Emperor and I Ching, and possibly connected to Shenism of the old tribes of China.

Originally posted by Zander2533
Those are also very mysterious, we do not know much about Buddha and Lao Tzu. Was there any connection between them? Have they ever met each other? Are they the same person? One person?

Here is a story. This is not my theory or my finding, I will just give you the facts I know, the ones I've read.

The theory that Laozi went to India in person and became the Buddha has been around at least since the 3rd or 4th century CE, and seems to have originated as a way to discredit or co-opt Buddhism in China. See here, section 5 for example. The reincarnation version of the theory appeared not long after. So it is very likely that some of the stories on the Chinese side have been deliberately manipulated to support this idea, especially the birth story.

Originally posted by Zander2533
Okay, first thing, we have a claim that he went towards the west, very important information. Even more amazing thing is that we have a claim he reached a border! Hey! BORDER! So he did not go to the western part of China, but to a land on the western part! Yet we have a claim that he, HIMSELF, said he was going to that land, so he can offer them salvation, as his work was probably done in China.

Zhou was small compared to modern China, and not even especially unified. There are plenty of places for him to have gone without getting anywhere near India. As far as I know the stories usually place the meeting with the guard at Hangu Pass midway between Luoyang and Xi'an. I think that would be the border of the Zhou capital region (where he is said to have worked as an archivist), but I don't know the geography very well.

This doesn't invalidate any similarity in ideas you see, but I'm not sure there is much point in looking for evidence in those stories.

Originally posted by arpgme
Lao Tzu and Buddha lived in different times, and the only thing we know about Lao Tzu is what he written in the Tao Te Ching. It's just a Myth that he was born that way.

We don't actually even know that about Laozi. What we know is that the name is attached to the book. As far as I know there is little or nothing besides that to suggest that the author was a single person. There are a lot of later stories, but nothing definite from same time.

Originally posted by nalkinroth

Originally posted by Zander2533
Those are also very mysterious, we do not know much about Buddha and Lao Tzu. Was there any connection between them? Have they ever met each other? Are they the same person? One person?

Here is a story. This is not my theory or my finding, I will just give you the facts I know, the ones I've read.

The theory that Laozi went to India in person and became the Buddha has been around at least since the 3rd or 4th century CE, and seems to have originated as a way to discredit or co-opt Buddhism in China. See here, section 5 for example. The reincarnation version of the theory appeared not long after. So it is very likely that some of the stories on the Chinese side have been deliberately manipulated to support this idea, especially the birth story.

Originally posted by Zander2533
Okay, first thing, we have a claim that he went towards the west, very important information. Even more amazing thing is that we have a claim he reached a border! Hey! BORDER! So he did not go to the western part of China, but to a land on the western part! Yet we have a claim that he, HIMSELF, said he was going to that land, so he can offer them salvation, as his work was probably done in China.

Zhou was small compared to modern China, and not even especially unified. There are plenty of places for him to have gone without getting anywhere near India. As far as I know the stories usually place the meeting with the guard at Hangu Pass midway between Luoyang and Xi'an. I think that would be the border of the Zhou capital region (where he is said to have worked as an archivist), but I don't know the geography very well.

This doesn't invalidate any similarity in ideas you see, but I'm not sure there is much point in looking for evidence in those stories.

Originally posted by arpgme
Lao Tzu and Buddha lived in different times, and the only thing we know about Lao Tzu is what he written in the Tao Te Ching. It's just a Myth that he was born that way.

We don't actually even know that about Laozi. What we know is that the name is attached to the book. As far as I know there is little or nothing besides that to suggest that the author was a single person. There are a lot of later stories, but nothing definite from same time.

edit on 17-1-2012 by nalkinroth because: Name correction.

First of all, I know Chinese history very well so I know the facts about Zhou's, Zhou borders have been really undefined, they were constantly fighting surrounding peoples because surrounding peoples wanted to conquer Zhou. Especially in 600 B.C. borders were changed. Even if they weren't, the people that live there were still Huaxia, Chinese who were indeed separated, but still Chinese. Lao Tzu said he left China (Chinese people) and went to give salvation to OTHER people.

Now, you say China wanted to degrade Buddhism? Again, your history is very questioning and yet insulting. China through years, contributed to Buddhism the most, people dying in order to save Buddhism, people building temples, China has the most Buddhists. So there was no need at all to say that they wanted to put Buddhism lower, with that statement you are being very mistaken, actually very insulting. Like many Europeans (you at least have their attitude) you guys try to degrade China and to remove it's good deeds calling it a myth.

You even said Lao Tzu is just a name, how dare you even to comment that way? Lao Tzu is possibly the greatest if not the greatest teacher in the whole world, and that's what bothers you, he is the greatest spiritual teacher and you as a Westerner want to abolish him, you fail every time, though. Like now.

Same thing you guys have been saying for Sun Tzu, greatest general ever, you guys said he doesn't exist, but still failed.

The birth myths about Lao Tzu and Buddha completely match, and how are you going to disprove that? You can't because there are hard evidence by my side that such myths are the same. There is no way of disproving anything here, I don't make conspiracies like your government does.

reply to post by Zander2533


Do calm down. I doubt if Nalkinroth meant any insult. We are all here only to discuss, to find out and learn more from each other on this melting pot called ATS, not to thrash each other.

There is very much of history, an important subject to comprehend our beginnings, that had been ignored and only briefly touched on in schools, sometimes even for political reasons. Books had been burnt for centuries. It's only common one should have pride in one's country, but we, as humans, must never accept falsehoods, half truths, or outright lies, so that we may learn from history to avoid its often costly mistakes.

I remember discussing with a graduate student from china, although majoring only in Engineering but still supposed to be an educated person, almost came to blows with me for my remarks on the millions of common folks in china murdered during the Cultural Revolution of China. I was shocked, not by his violence, by his ignorance over the issue.

The devil Mao wanted to become god-on-earth, thus he burnt books and attempted to wipe away traces of chinese history and culture, by even ordering the horrific torturing and murder of parents by their own kids to break the links to the past. If not for the dispora chinese around the world and the reformer Deng Xio ping, much of ancient chinese history would had been lost.

It seemed that that period was rather quickly and fully sanitised by the CCP gov when teaching their kids, and thus their ignorance. It was only months later that an apology came from him. He found out the reality of what happened, on his own.

When Shi Huang Ti united China in 221BC, China was largely made up of villages, and their population were never the level of today. Pre-unification were mainly villages, and existed, as proven by archeological digs and records. Amongst them was the Zhou Dynasty, of which Lao Tzi was believed to hailed from.

His living compatriot was another famous Chinese teacher, Confucius, whom many and espacially the CCP gov today hail, for his secular authoritarian teachings, compared to Lao Tzi's more anarchist leanings where society should be ruled by themselves based upon conscience and contribution.

It may be possible that Lao Tzi or his disciples had wandered into India during the 600s BC, because by then and subsequent centuries before the arrival of Buddha, there were many 'sages' and hermits in barbaric caste India that corresponded in some ways to the teachings of Lao Tzi. Even Buddha was inspired to try out their lifestyle, but never found the answer, until something 'divine' came into him and taught humanity civilisation, the better way, which advices and teachings hold relevant and are answers for many.

Unfortunately, not many indians took to his teachings. Buddha gained popularity only in China, which by then had already been primed and prepared by the sages - Lao Tzi, Confucius, etc to receive a better way for societies to live and achieve progress and evolution.

Lao Tzi is truly a revered name amongst chinese all over the world. In chinese schools, students would always stand in attention and greet a teacher when he/she enters the class for lessons, by hailing 'Lao Tzi chao an' - meaning ' good morning teacher' or good afternoon. One can say Lao Tzi was the first and greatest teacher the chinese civilisation ever knew, although over time and political greed took precedence, much of his relevance and history was lost or became rather patchy.

Originally posted by Zander2533Now, you say China wanted to degrade Buddhism?

No, I said that particular Daoists wanted to degrade Buddhism. There was a lot of debate and some hostility between the two especially early on before Buddhism was well accepted. I certainly don't intend any insult to China here (and China has obviously has been very supportive of Buddhism overall).

Originally posted by Zander2533
You even said Lao Tzu is just a name, how dare you even to comment that way?

I don't actually understand why it is so important whether Lao Tzu existed as a single person. The teachings are clearly valuable. Does Lao Tzu's identity make them any more or less valuable? In any case my point is just that we have very little information about Lao Tzu recorded before Han.

Originally posted by Zander2533
Unfortunately, not many indians took to his teachings. Buddha gained popularity only in China, which by then had already been primed and prepared by the sages - Lao Tzi, Confucius, etc to receive a better way for societies to live and achieve progress and evolution.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Buddhism was successful in India for many centuries before mostly vanishing. It was very popular in China, but also in Sri Lanka, Thailand, etc..

Originally posted by nalkinroth
[I'm not sure what you mean here. Buddhism was successful in India for many centuries before mostly vanishing. It was very popular in China, but also in Sri Lanka, Thailand, etc..

Any religion in monarchist states that does not have the patronage of the ruling class ultimately will remain a minority, such as Buddhism was in Hindu India, where caste priviledges were jealously guarded, more so against the anarchistic 'way of life' that the teachings of Buddha expounded.

Buddhism flourished only when Emperor Asoka of the Maurya Dynasty, the military conqueror of all India, sometime in 200s BC, saw the carnage he wrought after Kalinga, then converted to the teachings of Buddha. It was through him that monastries were built across India, and his rule was based upon buddhist teachings of correct moral behaviour. In his time, he spread such teachings even to the ends of India - Sri Lanka.

After his death, India became fragmented and ruled by Greeks. Hellenistic religions were re-introduced and in time, Hinduism with , which is largely similar to hellenistic theology, with the enslaving caste system crept back.

Unknown to many today, South east asia was never an arab hegemony back in the 1st century. The indigenous people were animist. But with the breakup of India, many of the buddist indians fled to south-east asia - such as indonesia, sumatra, thailand, vietnam and philippines.

And along with chinese traders and migrants into southeast asia, their common ground was buddhism, and it flourishes even today such as thailand, which still considers itself a Buddhist nation. Only countries such as indonesia and malaysia turned to Islam when arab traders started visiting the flourishing empires then, sometime in the 14th Century, and with its Sunni led authoritarian teachings, were far more suitable for the rulers to achieve their ambitions over the vast resourced lands.

As for Buddhism in China, the founder of the secular mighty Ming Empire was a buddhist monk -Zhu Yuan Zhang, that overthrew the barbaric mongols. Unknowingly perhaps to Americans, Ming's buddist style foriegn policy was similar to American's - trade opportunites and never conquests.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by Zander2533

 

Do calm down. I doubt if Nalkinroth meant any insult. We are all here only to discuss, to find out and learn more from each other on this melting pot called ATS, not to thrash each other.

There is very much of history, an important subject to comprehend our beginnings, that had been ignored and only briefly touched on in schools, sometimes even for political reasons. Books had been burnt for centuries. It's only common one should have pride in one's country, but we, as humans, must never accept falsehoods, half truths, or outright lies, so that we may learn from history to avoid its often costly mistakes.

I remember discussing with a graduate student from china, although majoring only in Engineering but still supposed to be an educated person, almost came to blows with me for my remarks on the millions of common folks in china murdered during the Cultural Revolution of China. I was shocked, not by his violence, by his ignorance over the issue.

The devil Mao wanted to become god-on-earth, thus he burnt books and attempted to wipe away traces of chinese history and culture, by even ordering the horrific torturing and murder of parents by their own kids to break the links to the past. If not for the dispora chinese around the world and the reformer Deng Xio ping, much of ancient chinese history would had been lost.

It seemed that that period was rather quickly and fully sanitised by the CCP gov when teaching their kids, and thus their ignorance. It was only months later that an apology came from him. He found out the reality of what happened, on his own.

When Shi Huang Ti united China in 221BC, China was largely made up of villages, and their population were never the level of today. Pre-unification were mainly villages, and existed, as proven by archeological digs and records. Amongst them was the Zhou Dynasty, of which Lao Tzi was believed to hailed from.

His living compatriot was another famous Chinese teacher, Confucius, whom many and espacially the CCP gov today hail, for his secular authoritarian teachings, compared to Lao Tzi's more anarchist leanings where society should be ruled by themselves based upon conscience and contribution.

It may be possible that Lao Tzi or his disciples had wandered into India during the 600s BC, because by then and subsequent centuries before the arrival of Buddha, there were many 'sages' and hermits in barbaric caste India that corresponded in some ways to the teachings of Lao Tzi. Even Buddha was inspired to try out their lifestyle, but never found the answer, until something 'divine' came into him and taught humanity civilisation, the better way, which advices and teachings hold relevant and are answers for many.

Unfortunately, not many indians took to his teachings. Buddha gained popularity only in China, which by then had already been primed and prepared by the sages - Lao Tzi, Confucius, etc to receive a better way for societies to live and achieve progress and evolution.

Lao Tzi is truly a revered name amongst chinese all over the world. In chinese schools, students would always stand in attention and greet a teacher when he/she enters the class for lessons, by hailing 'Lao Tzi chao an' - meaning ' good morning teacher' or good afternoon. One can say Lao Tzi was the first and greatest teacher the chinese civilisation ever knew, although over time and political greed took precedence, much of his relevance and history was lost or became rather patchy.

edit on 17-1-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)

I am calm, I just cannot stand ignorance of Westerners anymore, I can't. I was listening for years how Chinese are savages a and maniacs, all that because of CCP, who are maniacs, not real Chinese. Westerners took every opportunity to take China down, in Qing (Manchu) dynasty, 8 Nation Alliance wanted to push drugs into China by FORCE! Imagine that evil, and they say China is a danger, China never attacked a foreign country, while Westerners attacked everyone in sight. But that is off topic.

nalkinroth, again, you lack knowledge. He is very important to us, even if I'm European, I do not support European ignorance. Lao Tzu, great teacher, is very very important to us, he is the greatest philosopher of all time, and thus of great importance. You guys keep ignoring the stories about Lao Tzu's life, your problem.



People all around face conflict, but there was no such thing as huge hate between them. Hey, it was the Chinese who said Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are one. Look at Three Laughs at Tiger Brook painting where Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are shown in great relationship and as one.

Here:en.wikipedia.org...



But again, we are slowly going off topic guys, let's concentrate on Daoism and Buddhism connection.

I'm not sure why you think I'm attacking China or Daoism here. I find Buddhism and Daoism much more interesting than any other religion (or religion-like tradition) I know about, so that's really not my intention. But this is definitely getting off topic.

It would be more interesting for this thread if more whom know would paticipate in this thread with their perspectives and further our knowledge on our origins.

Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism do share some similar charateristics. They are all secular in nature and teaches mankind civilised way.

Buddhism had survived largely intact despite some minor obvious schisms, as normal in human affairs for no man with free will would think alike, , with much thanks to the noble monks order. It only teaches a way of life, of co-existance with others and tolerance, and widely accepted even by many political leaders whom see no threat to their rule.

Confuciansim on the other hand places a higher emphasis on respect of elders and seniors, which makes many a monarch happy with such idealogy, for mankind would have to be humble always to the most senior and non other than the ruler of a nation, even if he is wrong, which accounts for this ideology's longetivity.

Taoism owes much to the teachings of Lao Tzi whom taught mankind a way of life to achieve peace and harmony, but unfortunately, perhaps due to much of his teaching that were either lost or corrupted, there was a mysticism aspect taught along with it, such as the reverence to a pantheon of gods akin to hellenistic traditions.

Perhaps, greece had been a bigger influence in Asia than modern day historians give credit for. Alexander the Great did not 'dream of cows' as only in a dream, and thus his conquest of the ancient world. Someone must had told or taught him such of civilisations further than the greek islands, perhaps traders whom had ventured far and wide, and returned.

And through such contact was hellenistic beliefs shared with the animist indigenous people then in China, for remarkably, very much of the greek gods and doings were similar with ancient chinese and indian beliefs, such as heavenly wars and divine interventions in daily human affairs.

It was also believed that the Taoists knew and recorded 'superhuman feats' such as flying, paranormal senses, etc, but had only been ridiculed as myths. The closest modern day evidence of such feats is Tai Chi - internal strength, practiced by the old with seemingly slow motion movements one sees them performing in the morning as excercises.

I remember once during a martial arts class when i was called to take on with an old man. I refused to fight him as I was a big strapping youth. But the instructor told me to do so. I walked up to him, and just for show, to land a punch on his face lightly, but it was thwarted by him unbelivably fast for an old, to my surprise. My classmates were laughing me then.

I got serious and attacked with full angry force, only to be thrown by him to the wall about a few yards back, stunned. According to my instructor, what he did was to use the method of Tai Chi - to use my forceful strength, absorbed it and with what little strength as an old man would have, used mine and his force/strength to repel me back. Such were the little known and understood powers of the eastern hemisphere by the west.

I believed that there was more to it as I reseached into Taoism mysticism, but somehow, overtime, those superpowers were either lost through neglect or by force, such as the burnings of books by the god-on-earth wannabe 1st emperor of China, who claimed to be the son of heaven in order to make use of beliefs to consolidate his rule.

Perhaps it was good that such powers were lost over time, for with power comes responsibility, and very often, flawed mankind only proved irresponsiblities when handling power, to the detriment of his fellow men.

During the initial years of an united Han dynasty, the son of heaven was meant indeed as it is - an immortal, but as time went by, when those emperors died, masses knew they were not immortals, but only man. Thus, a westerner must never be confused by the concept of 'son of heaven' as 'son of God'. No mortal would call the Japanese, English or Thailand monarch an immortal today. It was only a term to mean a mandated intermediary to the heavens

Nalkinroth, Look man, I do not want to argue, I just want it to be clear that Lao Tzu and his life is not a myth. That's all, I'm really sick of Westerners and their "theories" about other civilizations. No offense, I hope I did not offend you much, it was not my intention, I was just protecting what I love and respect.




SeekerOfTruth, till now I really liked your comments, but from now on I will be more careful, because I saw you are trying to say there is some Greek influence in Asia. With all due respect towards the Greeks, I will have to oppose that, because Chinese pantheon (later taken by the Daoists) dates back to 3rd millennium, at the time Greek civilization did not exist, so there is no influence on Chinese Daoism by Greeks.






Anyway, let's continue with Buddhism-Daoism connection...

Originally posted by Zander2533
SeekerOfTruth, till now I really liked your comments, but from now on I will be more careful, because I saw you are trying to say there is some Greek influence in Asia. With all due respect towards the Greeks, I will have to oppose that, because Chinese pantheon (later taken by the Daoists) dates back to 3rd millennium, at the time Greek civilization did not exist, so there is no influence on Chinese Daoism by Greeks.

1. I am glad you liked my comments, and far more so that you would be more careful with I write. I am only a flawed human, fully capable of being wrong, and thus would prefer very much that you seek and verify on your own, so that you may further cherish such knowledge gained.


2. In the quest for knowledge, we MUST abandon every pre-concieved notions, prejudices and pride. A matter of 'unlearn inorder to learn', and only then can we see the truth and not be blinded by our own limitations and environments. Truth is sadly painfull, but a reality we will have to eventually confront, no matter how we mortals attempt to hide from it. Thus, the critical importance of an open mind.


3. For every fact, it is often based upon a hypothesis, more so on our past where much had been hidden or destroyed. No matter how far fetched it may be, it is only a hypothesis, yet to be confirmed as fact until there are evidences that prove such hypothesis right or wrong.

Some claim it is time wasting, to seive through the numerous hypothesis, but the fact remains that if had no time, then it would be better for one to abandon the quest for knowledge, and leave it to others, than to provide or pass nonsense as fact, just because one has the scholarly papers, which are only evidences of past knowledge and not the critical present.


4. I do agree that perhaps the greek influence upon eastern may not be acceptable to some, but it is not far fetched, only that no evidence is avaliable today other than speculations and hypothesis.


5. Lao Tzi is as real as Buddha and Confucius. There ARE historical evidences of their mortal presence, which cannot be denied. The only bone of contention between you and me is the 'myths' over the pantheon of 'gods'.

a.) The human occupation of China had not been in the 3rd millenium as you believed. Peking man was found in present day Peking was between to have existing - 780,000 to 300,000 BC. You are off by hundreds of thousands of years.

b.) There were evidences of millet agriculture in Henan
- seeds of farming and civilisation of the chinese in 7000BC, long before your presumed 3000 BC start of China.

c.) Historical records proved that a Xia dynasty existed something in the 1700 BC. A civilisation long after your presumption that China civilisation began in around 3000BC.

d.) Humans were found in excavated sites in Greece that dates back to the 7000BC. The earliest known Greek civilisation were the minoan in Crete, that came about 2700BC.

e.) In the Hebrew civilisation historical chronicles, in the book of Genesis, it wrote that there were the sons of God mated with created humans, and a hybrid race known as the nephliem was born, which accounted for the myths of super-beings on earth.

The Hebrews civilisation began in the middle east, and should the book that is accepted by 97% of present mankind-jews, muslims, christians - to be true, then indeed a race of super beings endowed with super powers existed before recorded history amongst mankind. And it could well be these super-beings that were regarded within the pantheon by the very much uneducated mankind that our ancestors was, which was spread out on Earth across geological barriers to harvest the lands, which accounted for super godly powers unknow to then mankind.

f.) In any case, this is only a hypothesis, not a fact, over the issue of greeks influencing chinese and indian culture. There is still much research to be done, if not finished in my time, it will be in the next generations time, for the sake of knowledge so that we may know our origins and be free.

While I tend to agree that Buddha is actually a transformation of an older wisdom/ knowledge base from the antediluvian world. The whole of Chinese records has been rewritten too many times by a people that have transformed themselves too many times to use any one work or body of works to establish a timeline.

I think it is more to the point to say that all are intertwined in the sense that they re-hatched ancient wisdom when applicable. The ancient world once believed in kingship from goodness. It was the thought that a true king would find his place to kingship by the people he ruled over in "good faith". It was he that was destined by their thought to rule all since all would bow to his moral authority.

Hegemony assured by natural law of human goodness.
It was once true at a certain point but during the warring states period in china for example, Mencius tried to re-hatch this to combat the eternal war and hardship that the 7 super powers of the time caused the common man. It was based on ancient truths, but addressed the fundamental flaw that they were facing as a society. A need for 1 ruler and greater morality.

Like taking 70´s era anti-war movement philosophies based on eastern thought, re-hatched in the US but under the modern concept of peace in the ME, or the new peace movement.

The ancient wisdom was always searched for but often when found it was rewritten to fit the current dynamic. Its original form was hardly ever preserved, in favor of re-birthing it in new light under a new author.

It is safe to say that they are linked though. Take the foundation of martial arts, kung fu in particular.
A man named Bodhi dharma. He is credited with bringing what became kung fu to Buddhist monks in the form of Zen teachings coupled with physical martial arts from their Sanskrit sources. The old world, antediluvian knowledge. He is rumored to be the prince of a southern Indian continent kingdom that traveled spreading ancient wisdom.

en.wikipedia.org...


I think this in a common trend. The source is the same, the story similar. A person of noble beginnings, learning true enlightenment and then surrendering his privileged life in the name of his new found wisdom. His source is more often than not, traceable to ancient knowledge. The message is still applicable. It has been constant, although altered to fit the times.

But that is form not function.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


There is no reason to think that Greeks had any influence on China, you know why? First the distance and Chinese way of dealing with the outsiders, we all know that Chinese dynasties strongly fought for Chinese only culture in China, no outsider influence, this may be harsh but it is a way towards saving a civilization and making it prosperous, that's why nobody could defeat the Chinese, and that's why Chinese had no need to do filthy conquering like others did.


You misunderstood me, I did not say Chinese people started in 3rd millennium, Chinese civilization started earlier, I said first Daoist like teachings started with 3rd millennium with Fu Xi's book I Ching.


Yes, Greece has findings of people very ancient, on example Cretans in 3rd millennium have just began developing as a civilization, in 3rd millennium they were at the same level as Jiahu culture in China that existed circa 7000 - 5000 B.C. It was yet in palace of King Minos was build circa 1700 B.C.

But do not misunderstand me, I love Greece. If Greece had influence on China, or if China had influence on Greece, it would not matter, Greeks are humans, Chinese are humans too.

reply to post by casenately


Good, but you first have to know that Bodhidharma did not bring Gongfu to China, Gongfu existed all the way back in 3rd millennium as Jiao Di and Qi Gong forms, later it was developed into other styles, only thing Da Mo did was bring some Buddhist meditation merging it with Qi Gong and creating a muscle/tendon exercise still used today.

Originally posted by casenately


I think this in a common trend. The source is the same, the story similar. A person of noble beginnings, learning true enlightenment and then surrendering his privileged life in the name of his new found wisdom. His source is more often than not, traceable to ancient knowledge. The message is still applicable. It has been constant, although altered to fit the times.

Thanks for you insight. I fully agree with your points. The critical aspect that binds all religions seems to come from one singular source, and altered to fit the times, usually through the medium of much supported mortal enlightened teachers.

Throughout the course of our own current civilisation of 5000 years recorded history, it had always been 'improving on learnt knowledge'. There must be a source whereby improvements can come from. Knowledge was never meant to confine us into a box, dogmatic and robotic, more so when we had been gifted with free will, to choose, and choose wisely. From the wheel we evolved into cars and planes technologically.

Same too will it be for our social aspect. For example, in mainstream religions - jews, muslim, christianity - we were taught Not To Kill, and yet, based upon the hebrew's historical chronicles, it showed the jews went often to wars. So was there some confusion in this civilisational prime directive?

No, there was no confusion. Mankind had been taught not to kill, but in the face of other's barbarism and persecution, a nation have to defend itself which will involve killing ONLY as last resort when all peaceful means had been fully exhausted..

Those who are robotic will simply refuse to kill no matter the conditions. But some amongst mankind whom are facists or through lusts of power, used such conditions far too liberally to fool others to murder even peaceful innocents.

Thus, there is need to comprehend the civilisational guides passed down from the main source better, which even today, we mankind still have much difficulty in comprehending, either because we are too zealously RIGID to the source, or simply too caveliar with it.

One of the concepts of Taoism is 'Wu Wei' - the philosophy of 'when TO act and when NOT TO act'. It calls for instinctive wisdom rather than reflex action. When someone hits you, you hit back in reflex action. But it takes instinctive wisdom to give pause, consider carefully every angle and consequences before you commit any action.

And that's what is meant by 'improving upon learnt knowledge' which the divine teachers had tried to impart upon the uneducated masses then, and the sleeping masses of today. Those teachers had a harder time, for the geological and cutural boundaries were formidable then. But today, with information passed on light speeds, may we comprehend more on what had been taught for us to evolve and progress further as a civilised society.

Originally posted by Zander2533
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

There is no reason to think that Greeks had any influence on China, you know why? First the distance and Chinese way of dealing with the outsiders, we all know that Chinese dynasties strongly fought for Chinese only culture in China, no outsider influence, this may be harsh but it is a way towards saving a civilization and making it prosperous, that's why nobody could defeat the Chinese, and that's why Chinese had no need to do filthy conquering like others did.


You misunderstood me, I did not say Chinese people started in 3rd millennium, Chinese civilization started earlier, I said first Daoist like teachings started with 3rd millennium with Fu Xi's book I Ching.

Thanks for your reply and continued reverence for Buddhism and Taoism.

1. I hope we can both be cleared on certain issues.

First of all, both Buddhism and Taoism DID NOT introduce or invent the mythical gods of China. It had long existed amongst the common folks, as far back as even in 12,000 BC of UNRECORDED history.

The 2 teachings only focussed on HOW humanity can CO-EXIST with such myths, and not lose their own progress and evolution.


2. Thus, the question begs - WHO introduced the belief in 'gods' way back then? Where did that source came from?


3. Similarly, around the world, myths tell of how 'gods' existed and endowed with super-powers? Who were there?

The closest evidence we mankind can find is from the mainstream religion of the jews, muslims and christians. As mentioned before, the book of Genesis tells of how 'sons' of our Creator mated with terra Gaia homo sapiens and formed a hybrid race of beings endowed with 'super-powers'.

They were not gods. Only evolved beings. Today, we know of planets supporting life numbering the billions and a Universe that is far more than older than 5000 years old. Who is to say that off world civilisations cannot be MORE advance or cannot be more lower than ours?

For example, if possible an experiment, we bring together one of our cavemen ancestor with another 20 year old college grad of today, dump them together on an island of cavemen. For societal and technological advances, the colledge grad would not only become the leader, but a 'god' in the eyes of that society, for he could perform wonders - predict the seasons, turn swamps into cultivation lands, create wood wheels, etc. etc.

It wasn't so long ago in our human history that if one is able to make fish glow in the dark, he would be charged with sorcery and burnt with wooden stakes. But today, aquariums all over the world are stocked with glowing fishes genetically modified, and for sure, none was put to the wooden stakes.

Point is, someone or some group, whom had evolved, had only passed on learnt knowledge from our common Creator, to our ancestors, espacially in Greece, India and China, unlike the hebrews and later christians and muslims, whom had records to prove direct civilisational instructions from Him.

And later, after the worldwide deluge, as proven by geological sediments found on Earth that occured around 3000 BC, life was restarted around the world, and as these 'gods' move on, gradually other selected mortal teachers were sent to reinforce better social human behaviour for mankind such as Lao Tzi, Buddha and many others around the world separated by geological barriers and culture.