First Responses - A race to the scene, and then Chaos.

This is a good article for researchers trying to understand the mass and the mess of first responders on 911.

The attacks on the World Trade Center towers resulted in the largest concentrated emergency-service response in American history. At least 100 EMS units and dozens of private ambulances raced to the site, setting up triage centers from which to ferry the wounded to hospitals. More than 2,000 NYPD and Port Authority police officers secured the area, searched the Towers, and rescued survivors. But the response was, first and foremost, a Fire Department operation.

In a standard single-alarm fire, a total of six units—three engines, two ladders, and a battalion chief—respond. A five-alarm fire brings 44 units. September 11 was on the order of five five-alarm responses, involving more than 214 FDNY units—112 engines, 58 ladder trucks, five rescue companies, seven squad companies, four marine units, dozens of chiefs, and numerous command, communication, and support units.

Coordinating all that personnel and equipment fell to the department’s dispatchers, who at the time worked out of command centers in each of the five boroughs. The FDNY has never released its official fire report on the disaster, but from a combination of dispatch logs, independent reports, oral histories, and extensive interviews with firefighters, dispatchers, and commanders, a sketch of its response can be drawn. The hundreds of individual dispatches can be grouped into ten waves, from the initial rush to the scene, to backup units sent in after the first collapse, to recovery operations later that night.

But this account conveys only part of the scale and complexity of the FDNY’s response. Off-duty firefighters and entire companies “self-dispatched” to the site without orders. So did numerous ambulances and police officers. The area around the Trade Center quickly became a “parking lot,” in the words of one police radio report, making it impossible for many units to report to the alarm boxes and staging areas they were assigned to. Of the 214 or so units dispatched, only 117 of them activated a “10-84” status signal that let dispatchers know they’d arrived. The details of what many companies did at the scene remain hazy; the operations of twenty companies that were wiped out are simply unknown.

When the North Tower collapsed, Chief of Department Peter Ganci and many upper officers were killed, leaving the department without a central command. The FDNY’s glitchy radios (which had similarly failed in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing but were still in use) left firefighters unable to coordinate their movements or talk to commanders. The police radios worked much better, and most NYPD officers were evacuated from the North Tower after the South collapsed. But traditional departmental turf wars meant there was little communication between police officers and firemen, who lost more than 100 of their number in the second collapse.

Source

reply to post by comprehension

here is some additional related info

RE-EVALUATING NYPD PERFORMANCE ON 9-11

Last year on 9-11, 343 firemen and 23 policemen were killed . As these figures show, it is obvious which faction of uniformed public servants suffered the worst losses. Painful as it may be, the following questions must be asked:

* Why was there such a huge discrepancy in fatality rates between these two groups of equally-lauded individuals?
* Why have mainstream media outlets fostered equal public adulation for both police and firemen, when the firemen suffered many times more losses?
* Why is every police department across the nation permitted, (if not encouraged), to bask in the reflected glory of the NYPD (undeserved as it may be)?
* Are we supposed to believe that the lives of policemen are worth more than the lives of the other decedents?

Don't forget, before 9-11 unjustifiably whitewashed their image, the NYPD had a far more sinister, far more realistic, and far more deserved reputation. Are we supposed to forget this fact, (and ignore reality), simply because twenty-three police officers happened to die on the same day that 15 times as many firemen died, and 130 times as many civilians died?

These questions become even more pressing in light of a credible report that the NYC Police Department may in fact be largely responsible for the tragic and unnecessary deaths of firemen on 9-11. According to an independent study commissioned by the City of New York, the failure of the NYPD to share vital information with the FDNY in a timely manner contributed to the horrific carnage among the firemen.

copwatch.com...

reply to post by comprehension


As a forest firefighter from Canada we use ICS ( Incident Command System )

Wiki

The Incident Command System (ICS) is "a systematic tool used for the command, control, and coordination of emergency response" according to the United States Federal Highway Administration.[1] A more detailed definition of an ICS according to the United States Center for Excellence in Disaster Management & Humanitarian Assistance is "a set of personnel, policies, procedures, facilities, and equipment, integrated into a common organizational structure designed to improve emergency response operations of all types and complexities. ICS is a subcomponent of the National Incident Management System (NIMS), as released by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security in 2004."[2] An ICS is based upon a flexible, scalable response organization providing a common framework within which people can work together effectively. These people may be drawn from multiple agencies that do not routinely work together, and ICS is designed to give standard response and operation procedures to reduce the problems and potential for miscommunication on such incidents. ICS has been summarized as a "first-on-scene" structure, where the first responder of a scene has charge of the scene until the incident has been declared resolved, a more qualified responder arrives on scene and receives command, or the Incident Commander appoints another individual Incident Commander.

I don't know if it were effective on 9/11, but now this is the system use by many first responders services in case of disaster as earthquakes, fire, flood and so on..

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


Seems to me to be a strong anti-police bias in your link.

Isn't the obvious reason for more FDNY casualties is that it was their job to try and get up to fight the fires and not the police ?

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

 

Seems to me to be a strong anti-police bias in your link.

Isn't the obvious reason for more FDNY casualties is that it was their job to try and get up to fight the fires and not the police ?

Who said anything about fighting fires? Not the FDNY:

Our interviews with the chief officers in charge of the Operations Post in WTC 1
indicated that, early in the response, they decided that operations in WTC 1 should
focus on search and rescue of injured and trapped civilians. The chiefs dispatched
units from the lobby of WTC 1 to higher floors in two situations:

¶ In response to specific distress calls (e.g., people stranded in elevators,
trapped in rooms, or hurt who would either call 911 or contact OP-1
directly through WTC 1’s internal telephone system).

¶ To ensure that floors below the fire had been totally evacuated.

FDNY Fire Operations Response

What was that you were saying about fighting fires?

reply to post by comprehension




911 was an inside job. Don't trust ANYTHING you hear on the main stream news media, or from the government. They are lying to you.

Conspiracy Theory with Gov. Jesse Ventura- 911 Pentagon Attack(Full Episode)

Gee wonder what happened to trillions of dollars.............see the full episode.

Sep10, 2001 - The White House's battle plan to invade Afghanistan and topple the Taliban and Osama bin Laden awaits President Bush's approval.
www.msnbc.msn.com...

Kissinger & Carlyle Group Connections to yet more financial interests:
911review.com...


Rumsfeld Trillions:
1. September 10, 2001 - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announces that the Pentagon has lost track of $2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS of military spending. www.cbsnews.com... www.defenselink.mil... (DOD) www.youtube.com... (Live footage of the speech)

Insider Trading ("Buzzy" Krongard) CIA

Source and rest of article: www.youtube.com...

Follow the money................When are the majority of you going to wake up?

My guess is too late.

It's already almost too late.

But most of you don't care, will remain compliant and accept your enslavement with open arms and closed eyes.

Fox anchor leaves stage after his government sponsored act gets nowhere when talking with Ventura.

Source & where video below comes from: www.youtube.com...

I think its an outrage that they are pinning the blame of the firefighter deaths on the NYPD, when we know damn well it was the criminal bankers who orchestrated the criminal attack.

reply to post by TheMindWar


That way the big Insurance guys (and WC) I worked for a TPA Firm that serviced both government and private "clients" get out of paying the survivor benefits................all about profit over people.

And now, go to the many replies here on ATS that say, oh it's alright, people should get as rich as they want.

Behind every single fortune is a criminal.........you don't get super rich without dealing dirty, you simply don't.

And I'm not talking a few million - that today is chicken feed.......................I'm talking real money.

The majority of you, like Jesse says, "Can't handle the truth".

reply to post by comprehension


The FDNY chiefs on 9/11 realized that the fires on the upper floors would be beyond control - each floor was
acre in size and with multiple floors on fire would not be enough manpower and water to extinguish fires

Emphasis was on clearing people from building and trying to rescue people from the upper floors, above the
impact zone. To do this chiefs had the engine companies double up and drop half their hose loads- carry only
enough hose to protect themselves and any victims they found.

Planning for response to WTC had envisoned fighting "normal" office building fire - not confronting situations
where jet aircraft had been rammed through building. Planning had assumed elevators would be functional
and able to carry men to area. On 9/11 the elevators were smashed and inoperable forcing men to walk up
stairs. Each man carried nearly 100 lbs of equipment and tools, there wwere only 3 stairways in each
building - 2 outer stairs only 44 in wide, barely wide enough for 2 people to pass, inner one slightly wider at
56 inches. In addition stairs would be crowded with people evacuating down. FDNY rule of thumb is that
takes 1 minute per floor so to reach the impact floors (93 - 96 North Tower, 78-84 South Tower) was going to
take 1 1/2 hours to reach .

Only FF to reach impact floors were crew from Ladder 15, who with Chief Orio Palmer had found freight elevator
to 41 st floor, cutting distance to walk in half. Arrived just in time to be caught in collapse of South Tower

Problem was given design of building and with damage suffered was almost impossible to reach the upper floors

reply to post by thedman



The Only Photographs Taken Inside the Towers On 9/11 Were Staged

reply to post by comprehension


What evidence do you have that photos taken inside are fake?

See you have quoted from that disgusting sewer "LETSROLLFORUM" - already any credibility you might have
had is gone....

Engine 28 was assigned to North Tower - it was to clear the 40th floor

while Engine 28 was sent up to the 40th floor.”

Its sister unit, Ladder 11, was sent to the Marriott Hotel (WTC 3) to assist in clearing that building

Ladder 11 – Murray’s usual unit – had already made their way up to the top of the neighbouring Marriott hotel to assist rescue operations there by the time he arrived.

At 9:59 am South Tower collapsed, flattening half of the Marriott Hotel - with Ladder 11 inside

All 6 of their men were killed

Engine 28 in North Tower hadtime to evacuate the building and escape

“We got up to the 10th floor, which was now fully on fire from the jet fuel. That’s when we met Roy and the guys from Engine 28 coming back down from floor 40. He insisted we had to head down fast.”

Back in the foyer, they looked out and saw that the Marriott had collapsed, unaware that the entire company from Ladder 11 had been wiped out in the process.

Here is story as told by member of Ladder 11 who survived that day because was detailed to other unit,
Ladder 18

www.telegraph.co.uk...< br />
But I already knew story of Ladder 11/Engine 28 - the OIC of ladder 11, Lt Michael Quility was a family member
of a member of my fire department. Heard the story first hand from people who were there

reply to post by thedman


I understand the topic is unsettling, but you were describing the stairwells and I posted an image of one, and a link to the website from whence I grabbed the screenshot.

reply to post by comprehension


You never addressed why the photo was supposedly faked....

Did you bother to do any research or simply post garbage from conspiracy sites becauses fits you fantasy....

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by comprehension

 

You never addressed why the photo was supposedly faked....

Did you bother to do any research or simply post garbage from conspiracy sites becauses fits you fantasy....

If you read the link, you'd see why, but I'll cut to the chase, the stories behind both the photographer and the subject are hard to nail down...sometimes the photographer is a tourist, sometimes a consultant. Mike Kehoe, the subject's story also shifts:

The Kehoe narrative was also poorly thought out. The original narrative is that he is the only man to survive while the rest of his Company, 6 men, died. The problem with that was that no Firemen from Engine 28 died, and the huge 28 on the front of his helmet gave it away. The narrative then changed over to his buddies from the other half of the Firehouse, Ladder 11, had died.

Kehoe claims to be upset by the spot light, yet is seen in it quite often, especially in the UK.

This 9/22/2001 LA Times article still hasn’t gotten the Ladder 11 memo, and is an example of the Engine 28 scenario.

Quote:
The six missing men of Engine 28 have their own photos. Kehoe sees them at the firehouse every day, staring out from a memorial just inside the engine bay.
The same article contains a claim that the crowded stairwell evacuated 28 floors in two minutes.

Quote:
It took less than two minutes to run down the 28 floors, Kehoe recalled, because most people were already out of the stairwell.

letsrollforums.com...

reply to post by thedman


There was a FOIA request made by those "disgusting sewer" rats at LetsRollForums. Those bastards exposed another fraud, how dare they.

Looks like all records were destroyed of the photographer/tourist/consultant. Disgusting, no?

Originally posted by comprehension
reply to post by thedman

 

There was a FOIA request made by those "disgusting sewer" rats at LetsRollForums. Those bastards exposed another fraud, how dare they.

Looks like all records were destroyed of the photographer/tourist/consultant. Disgusting, no?

Now let me get this straight - your evidence that 9/11 was a FAKED inside job is letter telling someone that records pertaining to the World Trade Center tower may have been destroyed? And you consider that suspicious?

reply to post by hooper

Now let me get this straight

Okay, but you're already so far behind...how much time would you like?

Originally posted by comprehension
reply to post by hooper

 

Now let me get this straight

Okay, but you're already so far behind...how much time would you like?

You're right - its very difficult to keep up with this stuff. I mean your limited only by your imagination so its kind of difficult to know where to begin looking sometime. Now its suspicious that records in the World Trade Center were destroyed - I wonder how that could have happened.

Originally posted by hooper

Originally posted by comprehension
reply to post by hooper

 

Now let me get this straight

Okay, but you're already so far behind...how much time would you like?

You're right - its very difficult to keep up with this stuff. I mean your limited only by your imagination so its kind of difficult to know where to begin looking sometime. Now its suspicious that records in the World Trade Center were destroyed - I wonder how that could have happened.

Har...at least read what you're scoffing at!

reply to post by comprehension


Like I said - avoid the sewer of LETSROLLFORUM....

Did you bother to read the link to story I posted

Gives pretty comprehensive account of what transpired to the Engine 28/Ladder 11 that day

Problem is many early accounts contain conflicting or flat out wrong information

Idiots like those who inhabit places like LETS ROLL like to take these accounts - twist them and then mix
in their paranoia to create a conspiracy where none existed

Also from reading what these retards said seem to have problem with

1) why employee in building would have a camera, then going off about since observation deck was closed
(Note to LETSROLL retards - observation deck was in South Tower, the picture was in North Tower stairway) ,
then camera should not be there there. As if building employees would not have a camera with them

2) Since picture was picked up and printed in British papers must have been taken by professional as if no amateur photograph has ever appeared in print. Picture was released by Associated Press where it was
reprinted by newspapers worldwide

In the photo, sweaty young Mike Kehoe is headed up--all the way up a smoky stairwell in the north tower of the World Trade Center just after 9 a.m. on Sept. 11.

Kehoe wasn't aware that someone was taking his photograph at that particular moment. He's a firefighter. His mind was focused on hustling all the way up the tower and evacuating office workers. "Civilians," as he calls them.

But the shutter was snapped and the frame was frozen--and Kehoe's boyish face was rocketed around the world by Associated Press. Suddenly, people in England and Australia and all over the United States were wondering:

Here is mistake in article

The six missing men of Engine 28 have their own photos. Kehoe sees them at the firehouse every day, staring out from a memorial just inside the engine bay. There's Lt. Mike Quilty and firefighters Rich Kelly, Matt Rogan, Edward Day, Mike Cammarata and John Heffernan.

Missing FF are listed from Engine 28, in reality were from Ladder 11 which is in same firehouse as Engine 28