The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by eletheia

 

I said this before, but, there's a difference between a child using its own imagination, and imposing a false belief on that child. However, this whole fairy thing could as well be imposed by some stuff she watched on TV or whatever. So.. How far would you go as a parent to refrain your child from being brainwashed by whatever means? Aside from that question, if they come to a conclusion of their own about something, like fairies in the garden, it's something they themselves came up with, and if you try telling them that it's not the case (you should not force them to not believe in this case either), they will realize eventually that you were trying to tell them the truth. With Santa it's the exact opposite. They will realize that you were trying to keep them in a deceiving state.

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

edit on 25-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Yeah.. So? Like the fairy example above, that eletheia posted, they themselves will come up with tons of such situations. Santa is not needed for that. And of course they will eventually find out Santa is fake. That will still not change anything, especially regarding the trust between parent and child. It's still something that YOU imposed on the child while knowing it's not true. You think the child will not wonder why you didn't tell him/her the truth?

So you get people like yourself basically saying that the concept of Santa is a bad thing. But then it gets pointed out that studies show that it's not. And then regardless of anything else anti Santa you said your main point of reponse is "Yeah so?"

Oh what you mean is that it's not worth anything unless it agrees with your unqualified unresearched opinion? Sorry fella I'll go with the studies.

edit on 26-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

First of all, which studies? He just said there are studies. I didn't see them. I could also have said that studies show that they have emotional scarring for the rest of their lives without providing them. But then you probably would've asked me for links and stuff, which you don't for him. Confirmation bias much. But if you want to believe non-provided so-called research over my so-called unqualified (whatever that means) unreasearched (baseless assertion on your part) opinion, then go ahead..

Second, telling your child that Santa is real, is a lie. That's a simple fact. You can try to spin it all you want and try putting it in the box of a myth, but it is still a lie. You are telling the child that something is real while it is not. That is the exact definition of a lie. And they will find out that it is a lie. And if children know the difference between myths and lies, it's actually an argument against telling your children that Santa exist, not for it. You're not telling your child that Santa is a story where people celebrate and get gifts from parents but act as if it's Santa, you tell them it is Santa. You see it as a myth because you already know. The child sees it as reality, then as a false belief, and then notices that you told them something that was not true.

Third, you completely ignore the point regarding the relationship between parent and child.

Let the kids decide what they want to believe and follow their lead. You don't have to say he's real or that you believe. Just tell the santa story, ask if they believe and take it from there.

If your child has a strong imagination it's probably needed for their development. When I was little I had friends who believed in everything, they would get pretty upset if I said otherwise. They would cry and their moms would get mad...I knew it was best to leave it alone. Kids are so unique I say raise them by feel, if it feels right for you and your child by all means do it.

In a child's own words: A "Dear Santa" letter published in our local newspaper.


I find the whole Santa thing cruel treatment for children who have a sensitive and tender spirit. Some of us souls expect the truth and nothing but. We do not want our "fantasy world" confused with "reality." Maybe it is "okay" for others, but I think the truth is always better. I have two children and we have never tried to convince them of the reality of the tooth fairy, easter bunny or santa. They feel fortunate.

reply to post by starchild10


no i am saying i make my choices based on what i want to do and think is right rather than just do things because everybody is or does or because other people will moan if i think different to them or do not copy their beliefs and practices and will see it as a personnal attack against them, rather than just my opinion, what to eat and when to eat was just an example of people just eating certain stuff at certain times because everybody else does. sunday dinner for example.

you can take that as the sheeple thing if you wish, but that is not what i was saying, some people just do things because it is the norm, rather than do what they want to do. i never mentioned sheeple, you did.

and i was not having a dig. facts are facts, people do exactly what i said. wether you do or not, or wether anybody here does or not. alot of people just follow along without questioning a thing or deciding for them selves.

edit to add: your WE and I confusion is because you failed to read/quote my whole post or it would be obvious who we is = those who think santa is not a good thing.

I love Santa! Who says he's not real???

But really, we all here know he doesn't exist, yet have our opinions on him/his image because we all believe that the holiday spirit which his image embodies does, or at least should, exist. Who doesn't want to be jolly and giving and loving during the holiday seasons? It would be great if we all be like that all year round, but St. Nick started the tradition around this time of the year and it was mixed with a bit of baby Jesus to become what it is today (although he is now being overused as a tool for marketing towards Xmas consumers and Coca Cola). I think it depends on what we want our children to feel, act and expect for Christmas (not just the presents, but the feeling of giving and caring). And this most likely stems from how you were brought up and the image of Santa you had.

My Santa wasn't just coming to town to give me presents because I was good, he had me make Xmas cards to my frieds and loved ones to show that I cared, bought presents for my younger siblings to see the joy on their face on Xmas morning before we all sat down together to watch Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph, go to an orphanage to let the kids there know that the spirit of the holidays is there with them, even if their parents aren't.

I'm sure all of this can be done without some fat dude in a red outfit and a fake white beard, but that image has been imbedded into the culture to trigger happy feelings and cheer, and I doubt it's ever going away.

Ho Ho Ho~!!!

When my daughter was young she was convinced we had 'faries' at the bottom of the garden there was no way she would believe otherwise, and she would put small quantities of food out for them on a table out of a doll's house.When the food disappeared (birds cats fieldmice?) her beliefs were confirmed. So what should i have done? well i just went along with it didn't make too much of it and eventually the situation absolved itself.

reply to post by eletheia


that is all good, i would of done the same, played along and asked questions but without me convincing them they were real, i would leave that up to them to believe, the difference is however your child came up with that off their own backs and imagination, it was not told to them as a lie by an adult to make them believe it was 100% real only to find out different later.

also the rest of the population probably does not go around promoting to their kids that there are faires at the bottom of the garden and they are real and think anybody who does not teach this are cruel. and question people about why they don't teach this by people who do.

thats the difference and it is not the same.

The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

Make it illegal; why ? :
proof in pictures
(those kids have been traumatized for life)


____________________

reply to post by ToneDeaf






This thread has caused me much amusement And i don't beleive it will make

ANY difference to either those that will go on perpetuating the 'myth' and those that think

it is wrong to do so................


But similar pictures to those posted on your link (without the Santa) can be got by standing

at any supermarket checkout and photographing the screaming bawling children going through

the checkout who have been denied any sweets from the final display.

Originally posted by vasaga

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by eletheia

 

I said this before, but, there's a difference between a child using its own imagination, and imposing a false belief on that child. However, this whole fairy thing could as well be imposed by some stuff she watched on TV or whatever. So.. How far would you go as a parent to refrain your child from being brainwashed by whatever means? Aside from that question, if they come to a conclusion of their own about something, like fairies in the garden, it's something they themselves came up with, and if you try telling them that it's not the case (you should not force them to not believe in this case either), they will realize eventually that you were trying to tell them the truth. With Santa it's the exact opposite. They will realize that you were trying to keep them in a deceiving state.

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

edit on 25-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Yeah.. So? Like the fairy example above, that eletheia posted, they themselves will come up with tons of such situations. Santa is not needed for that. And of course they will eventually find out Santa is fake. That will still not change anything, especially regarding the trust between parent and child. It's still something that YOU imposed on the child while knowing it's not true. You think the child will not wonder why you didn't tell him/her the truth?

So you get people like yourself basically saying that the concept of Santa is a bad thing. But then it gets pointed out that studies show that it's not. And then regardless of anything else anti Santa you said your main point of reponse is "Yeah so?"

Oh what you mean is that it's not worth anything unless it agrees with your unqualified unresearched opinion? Sorry fella I'll go with the studies.

edit on 26-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

First of all, which studies? He just said there are studies. I didn't see them. I could also have said that studies show that they have emotional scarring for the rest of their lives without providing them. But then you probably would've asked me for links and stuff, which you don't for him. Confirmation bias much. But if you want to believe non-provided so-called research over my so-called unqualified (whatever that means) unreasearched (baseless assertion on your part) opinion, then go ahead..

Second, telling your child that Santa is real, is a lie. That's a simple fact. You can try to spin it all you want and try putting it in the box of a myth, but it is still a lie. You are telling the child that something is real while it is not. That is the exact definition of a lie. And they will find out that it is a lie. And if children know the difference between myths and lies, it's actually an argument against telling your children that Santa exist, not for it. You're not telling your child that Santa is a story where people celebrate and get gifts from parents but act as if it's Santa, you tell them it is Santa. You see it as a myth because you already know. The child sees it as reality, then as a false belief, and then notices that you told them something that was not true.

Third, you completely ignore the point regarding the relationship between parent and child.

A link to the studies have been posted on this thread. You find it. And the experts say you're wrong. I'll stick with he experts which agree with what most of us parents already know thanks.

This amongst many ideas are meant to promote and perpetuate the dualistic western view of the world. Many of my teachers will testify during many periods throughout history we have demonstrated what mass manipulation of belief is what creates power to the man behind the curtain but nobody must know he is there.

Originally posted by steveknows
A link to the studies have been posted on this thread. You find it. And the experts say you're wrong. I'll stick with he experts which agree with what most of us parents already know thanks.

And you can't link to the post or anything because it's such a hard and difficult task.. If you expect me to go look through 23 pages, while you can't even provide something that you already know is there, then you're not worth debating and you're probably afraid. You say there are studies, I say I haven't seen them here. The burden of proof is on you to show that there are studies.

Plus, if the study says that children know the difference between myth and reality or whatever, and says that they know Santa is a myth, that's just WRONG. It would be a wrong assumption because like I said before, children see Santa as a real person who brings them candy and gifts, not as a myth, unless parents teach them from the start that it's a myth, and that, I wouldn't have a problem with. It's the deceiving of children to make them think he's real that I have a problem with. This so-called "study" would only be valid in a case where parents told the truth from the beginning, or after a child has found out for themselves that Santa is a myth, not before.

But hey, if you wanna use appeal to authority to confirm your already present beliefs, go ahead.. You basically follow so-called "experts", instead of trying to think logically or for yourself. But.. I think somewhere inside you, you dislike that there is no Santa, and thus will propagate the so-called myth as much as possible to make up for cognitive dissonance.

Originally posted by vasaga

Originally posted by steveknows
A link to the studies have been posted on this thread. You find it. And the experts say you're wrong. I'll stick with he experts which agree with what most of us parents already know thanks.

And you can't link to the post or anything because it's such a hard and difficult task.. If you expect me to go look through 23 pages, while you can't even provide something that you already know is there, then you're not worth debating and you're probably afraid. You say there are studies, I say I haven't seen them here. The burden of proof is on you to show that there are studies.

Plus, if the study says that children know the difference between myth and reality or whatever, and says that they know Santa is a myth, that's just WRONG. It would be a wrong assumption because like I said before, children see Santa as a real person who brings them candy and gifts, not as a myth, unless parents teach them from the start that it's a myth, and that, I wouldn't have a problem with. It's the deceiving of children to make them think he's real that I have a problem with. This so-called "study" would only be valid in a case where parents told the truth from the beginning, or after a child has found out for themselves that Santa is a myth, not before.

But hey, if you wanna use appeal to authority to confirm your already present beliefs, go ahead.. You basically follow so-called "experts", instead of trying to think logically or for yourself. But.. I think somewhere inside you, you dislike that there is no Santa, and thus will propagate the so-called myth as much as possible to make up for cognitive dissonance.

ok

Wait, Santa Claus isn't real? Says who? I believe that strong enough belief can affect reality, and with all the untold numbers of children believing in Santa for the past 200 years, he's got to exist in one form or another.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

For the ones saying it doesn't create materialistic children, here you go:

One more point of view:
There were people standing behind communism in Soviet Union trying to take Christian faith from people and what they manufactured was GRANDPA FROST - such Russian Santa Claus. Isn't the same sort of people and the similar motive behind Santa? Do I have to explain what sort of sneaky bastards do I mean?

reply to post by vasaga





Never mind the kid's i would have been pretty hacked off to receive any of those presents!

I ask you raw potatoes, half eaten sandwiches, empty box, blackened banana, only

fit for the trash bin IMO.


I suppose that makes me an ungrateful, materialistic adult!

Have three adult offspring. Regret not telling them the truth from the start. A lie is a lie no matter what you call it.
Trust is paramount in a child /parent relationship, so you start the journey with a Biggie about Stuff. We then take them to the church of stuff (the mall) and ask the stuff god for more stuff we don't need.
As for Santa, if you wish to perpetuate the BS, should be about giving goats or some such thing to the less materialistic countries and not about our greedy selves.
Also the word santa is too close to satan in my book. Suck em into stuff early,make sure they become good little consumers.

reply to post by ollncasino


Most people won't talk about it in the real world because of peer pressure.... look I'm always trying to broaden the horizons of people around me and personally, I find it hard. When you don't follow the "accepted" opinion, most laugh at you or make you feel stupid...... and that EVEN when you can demonstrate it (not santa in particular... just in general). Peer pressure is very powerful, at least on a site like this you don't have to look at faces treating you like a crazy person.

reply to post by vasaga


How does this demonstrate anything at all??? I mean of course anybody would be insulted by gifts like that and you don't need to be materialistic.

This "experiment" would have been credible if the kids got actual presents, but not what they wanted, instead of ridiculous things.... I don't know... give him a ninja turtle instead of spiderman.... with a toy you could verify your argument..... but wouldn't you be insulted if anyone got you an old banana or a half eaten sandwich??

Having said that, we don't give many presents at christmas because it does create difficult children. When I was a kid I wanted a video game..... my parents got me one... now they didn't know but I didn't like that one. Let's just say I spent a lot of time mad in the bathroom..... now that I think about it I think I embarrassed myself lol

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

edit on 25-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Don't take it personal, but that's not exactly true. I knew santa was fake when I was 5 years old and my brother also knew at 4 years old (my parents told us at the same time). To tell the truth it never stopped me from enjoying santa and rudolph stories... as a matter of fact, even at that young an age it permitted me to think differently than other kids and I came to understand certain things quicker than the next door kids. My relationship with my mom actually got better at that point... couldn't explain why.

So santa is not necessarily evil, but perpetuating the lie can slow your child's understanding of the real world....... now before you start screaming about armchair experts.... I am not... I have a life outside of ATS which is probably why it took me so long to answer and NO I don't have kids. I'm not saying I know how to raise kids as it's one of the most difficult things in life I'm sure. And I also don't think every child is the same. What worked out well for me and my brother might not for someone else.


PS: I'd really like for some people on here to start discussing and arguing with an open mind instead of sticking no matter what to beliefs (by definition a belief is something unproven.. this goes for religion, UFOs, and even opinions) Do we really need to insult each other??? now I'm not religious, but don't most religions preach loving care for one another?

ok I'll stop writing on this thread... seems I'm taking a lot of room