The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

reply to post by steveknows


You do not know me nor have I asked you to diagnose me. I come to Above Top Secret to discuss subjects. I state my opinion and I at least expect to be respected.

When you start making comments that are personal you show your inability to maintain an intellectual discussion based on - sometimes - opposing views.

Santa is a lie - paint it any way you like. Santa is not a myth or a legend - just as we compose our posts - so to do people compose articles that include the title - Myth or Legend. Santa is not real. Consumerism is real. Being told to reward Children at Christmas is propaganda to ensure that the rich get richer and the sheep stay hypnotised and do as they are told - repeatedly via the television - radio and newspapers.

If you think differently that is your right and I respect that - notice how I have not made a personal attack on your mental state or psychological disposition? I can accept your point of view about Santa while retaining mine.

You think Santa is real and I know Santa is a fabricated lie.

Much Peace...God knows we need it & the Children need to see Peace more than toys...

Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by steveknows

 

You do not know me nor have I asked you to diagnose me. I come to Above Top Secret to discuss subjects. I state my opinion and I at least expect to be respected.

When you start making comments that are personal you show your inability to maintain an intellectual discussion based on - sometimes - opposing views.

Santa is a lie - paint it any way you like. Santa is not a myth or a legend - just as we compose our posts - so to do people compose articles that include the title - Myth or Legend. Santa is not real. Consumerism is real. Being told to reward Children at Christmas is propaganda to ensure that the rich get richer and the sheep stay hypnotised and do as they are told - repeatedly via the television - radio and newspapers.

If you think differently that is your right and I respect that - notice how I have not made a personal attack on your mental state or psychological disposition? I can accept your point of view about Santa while retaining mine.

You think Santa is real and I know Santa is a fabricated lie.

Much Peace...God knows we need it & the Children need to see Peace more than toys...

So you can come on here and basically tell all parents who celebrate santa with their kids that they're lying to them but when I say" some people" it's just not on in your eyes. Yes that is the theme of yours throughout ats I have noted. And I won't go off topic but I've seen your idea of parenting throughout ats and it's scary.

And I can see that you are a confused person in regards to what is tradition and lie. Now I'm not going to let you drag me into an irrational debate which is what you do but.......

STOP HAVING A GO AT PEOPLE FOR THEIR KIDS BELIEVING IN SANTA!

Peace and love and all the other gibbly gob you say right after having a go at people.

reply to post by steveknows


you make a good argument. While I agree that letting them believe in Santa Claus will not ruin their lives or childhood memories, this image still poses a problem relative to the system in which we live.... now I know this is a conspiracy site, but this is plain logic. You push toys on christmas and then people will value that over the true values for most of their lives. Christmas time is the most damaging time of the year for our environment and human rights. It just seems that we should spend to help people who are truly in need instead of fueling corporations with ridiculous sums that go for objects that they A) don't need B) usually have too much to start with and C) normally gets thrown into the trash the same year instead of going to children who can't even have a warm meal. This is not about doom and gloom, but about realizing the absurd way in which we celebrate a holiday that should be about love and compassion.... not toys and gadgets.

Why not let kids be kids and believe in a myth? Kids have amazing imaginations as it is, why force upon them at an early age a grown up stance that the world is one giant lie, and that we, as parents are perpetuating that lie?
Besides, as many have said, this time of year is more than just a figure created to sell products to the masses, it is about a state of unity, friendship and forgiveness we all seem to reach, then for some reason forget as soon as the new year's hangovers have worn off. Kids figure it out for themselves soon enough about the harsh realities of life, so why not let them enjoy the few small years they get as kids and let them be just that...

Originally posted by FreeDominator
reply to post by steveknows

 

you make a good argument. While I agree that letting them believe in Santa Claus will not ruin their lives or childhood memories, this image still poses a problem relative to the system in which we live.... now I know this is a conspiracy site, but this is plain logic. You push toys on christmas and then people will value that over the true values for most of their lives. Christmas time is the most damaging time of the year for our environment and human rights. It just seems that we should spend to help people who are truly in need instead of fueling corporations with ridiculous sums that go for objects that they A) don't need B) usually have too much to start with and C) normally gets thrown into the trash the same year instead of going to children who can't even have a warm meal. This is not about doom and gloom, but about realizing the absurd way in which we celebrate a holiday that should be about love and compassion.... not toys and gadgets.

But people seem to be confusing the concept of Santa with consumerism. There's no rule that says that a person can't make toys for thier children or limit the cost or amount of toys bought. Consumerism has nothing to do with the mental health of a child as a result of believing in Santa. And it's actually not related to the thread.

reply to post by steveknows


At no stage have I stated what parents should or should not tell their Children. I have my opinion and you have yours. Why do you defend everyone else and not stick to your own argument? I am not using other people as back up for my opinions.

I have obviously touched a nerve with you and it shows. Often many people notice your behaviour and personal tattacks when you are unable to continue an intellectual discussion - or - simply accept a person has a different point of view to you.

Above Top Secret members have been discrete and communicated to me via private message that you behave like this regularly - they communicate by personal message so as not to have to defend themselves against you.

Much Peace...if you don't want it ...pass it on to someone else ...or keep it for later...

I was ALWAYS dishonest with our Daughter....she could hardly wait for Christmas to come around. The twinkle in her eyes and the smile on her face, on Christmas Morning, is something I will hold in my Heart forever.

Once after our Daughter had gotten older, she asked if Santa Claus was real. I gave her the same answer Many parents have given their children...."As long as there are children, there will always be a Santa Claus."


Merry Christmas, to all (even you Atheist and Commies).

Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by steveknows

 

At no stage have I stated what parents should or should not tell their Children. I have my opinion and you have yours. Why do you defend everyone else and not stick to your own argument? I am not using other people as back up for my opinions.

I have obviously touched a nerve with you and it shows. Often many people notice your behaviour and personal tattacks when you are unable to continue an intellectual discussion - or - simply accept a person has a different point of view to you.

Above Top Secret members have been discrete and communicated to me via private message that you behave like this regularly - they communicate by personal message so as not to have to defend themselves against you.

Much Peace...if you don't want it ...pass it on to someone else ...or keep it for later...

Oh that is so much bull and you know it. Come on. Your theme is always one hypocrisy and just going against the grain of anything accepted in society. You condem parents for normal everyday things from immunisation down to their children beleiving in Santa and as soon as you're aimed at it then becomes a personal attack. This can be seen by the fact when I first responded to you on this thread there was nothing overly offencive about it but you screamed attack. You diminish the acts of parents and then depart with messages of love and peace. There is nothing credible in what you say. I would say that you instigate an action and then play the victim as I have noted on other threads.

And you claimed that I think Santa is real. Where did I say that Santa was real? I'm not even a Christian but I do enjoy the spirit of Christmas and I've enjoyed seeing my daughter growing up enjoying Christmas, this is what I mean. To you just because a person supports children believing in Santa ( which is actually a mentally healthy thing for them to do) then that adult must think he's real. Don't you think there's something wrong with that picture? This is where the irrationality I've seen in other threads start to come in. And then you play the victim.

Enough. I won't be drawn into another irrational debate with you regardless of how much you want to play the victim after you have a shot at parents in general for being parents.

Yes. Tell them lies. When they finally figure out the truth, it will be a valuable learning experience. They need practice not automatically believing everything they're told. So ++ for encouraging belief in Santa, Leprechauns, Unicorns, Ghosts, Angels, Gods, and Aliens. Go ahead and mix truth with fabrication. Their minds will (eventually) be better off for it.

reply to post by Amanda5




You know i feel quite affronted that there are people here who think that because i celebrate

Christmas and the children in my family beleive in Santa, that i am SO GULLIBLE AND STUPID

as to purchase products because they are on TV or advertised else where. I am NOT swayed

by such obvious commercialism.


Some years ago i worked for a brand leading company in paper products, and that company

closed production one day in every week to manufacture 'own lable.' (same machinery same

raw materials) .............At the same time i used to purchase shirts from a well known chain

store - whilst colleagues boasted that only a particular branded shirt 'cut the ice' in the best

cut, styling, and fabric. Well i had the last laugh when some weeks later i read an article

which said that the factory that produced that particular 'brand' shirt also closed production

for one day a week to make shirts with that particular 'chain store' lable on instead of the

'branded' one


So you see i am NOT unaware of 'commercialism.' - My money is HARD worked for and so

not easily wasted, i am not a brand snob i set my own price limits on what i consider value

for money.


As for MacDonalds and other fast food outlets they would be out of business if they relied

on my family

Originally posted by FlySolo

Originally posted by Battleline
reply to post by FlySolo

 

No, by all means tell them the truth(or what YOU preceive as the truth) then show them this fine picture you have and let them cry there eye's out.........................and that will make it all better,Instead of allowing them to have some sort of peace during there childhood knowing that when they grow up they will see the horrors of humanity soon enough.

I truely hope you don't have kids,what a sad person.

You don't want me to have kids based on a controversial thread discussion and because I'm sad "allegedly"

What a cruel person you are and out of touch. I like to encourage FREE thinking. You don't know me, my beliefs, or the size of my heart. I truly hope your kids see past your bitterness to those who have a different opinion than you. Who are you to determine who is fit to have kids off a faceless website? I would make a great dad. Jerk.

"You" posted your opinion or beliefs and your right all i know about you is what you post and it would seem when I have an opinion and you don't like it then i am the bad guy.GREAT SPIN.

And all this is about "free thinking" what a cheep way to back out of your post, this is your post slick don't put it on me.

Originally posted by steveknows
But people seem to be confusing the concept of Santa with consumerism. There's no rule that says that a person can't make toys for thier children or limit the cost or amount of toys bought. Consumerism has nothing to do with the mental health of a child as a result of believing in Santa. And it's actually not related to the thread.

Oh but it does. What is the purpose of Santa aside from bringing gifts?

Originally posted by DarknessMatters
The belief in a Santa Clause by children should be encouraged. They're children. Let them stay innocent as long as possible.
This whole "War on Christmas" thing is ridiculous at best.

Here, here, the innocence is fleeting, don't burden the children, they will learn the world is what they make it soon enough, let your jaded heart indulge them until they figure it out themselves, it happens soon enough. Do you really want to crush their dreams while they have them? It's not about you no mater how jaded you are, it's for the children.... Merry Christmas....

You know, I've seen a lot of sweeping, broad statements made in this topic. (As well as some people simultaneously criticizing religion-derived myths as dogma while promoting their own idea that "there is a right way and a wrong way," thereby espousing their own moral dogma in the process... which is of course their prerogative, but I'm just saying.)

By no means has everyone participating made such comments, but those who have have been fairly derogatory at times, indicating that those who raise their children to believe in Santa aren't "aware" or "awake," and that the only way they could do so is by being duped or manipulated by the media and the PTB into promoting consumerism. While I think that does happen sometimes and is a valid point and opinion, I'd also like to respectfully submit an alternative scenario.

I'm not religious personally. I'm an agnostic skeptic, and I wouldn't raise my children to believe in Santa personally. I would prefer to make the holidays into a generic end-of-year or seasonal celebration of life and joy. But that's who I am today, as a 30 year old adult. When I was little, my parents were at least marginally religious (at least years ago) and they raised me to believe in Santa when I was very little.

Now, my family was very poor back then (we are more fortunate now, thankfully, or I wouldn't be on the internet discussing this.) We lived in and out of homeless shelters, and ate at soup kitchens (Saint Anthony's and Glide church in San Francisco literally saved our lives on a daily basis for years... and yes, I'm willing to reveal my location on the internet for the sake of making my point. What's going to happen? Someone might find where I live in this giant city somehow and then... visit me? Not that *Shudder* )

So needless to say, I never got much for Christmas. Because I never received much in the way of gifts, Christmas was about a feeling and a season more than anything else. It was about lights, songs, cold weather (which I've always loved, even when unbeknownst to me at that age it was probably unhealthy for us in our circumstances) and love. It was about getting to eat stuffing for once because St. Anthony's dining hall served it with turkey and cranberry sauce from a can around that time of the year. It was about seeing other families in the same boat we were smiling and singing songs for once. And, yes, it was about Santa Claus.

Granted, I came to realize Santa wouldn't be bringing me much (though I did look forward to the liquor store bought candy my parents put in my stocking when possible.) But what thrilled me as a child was the idea of the existence of Santa. That there was a magical, caring, unconditionally loving, child-personifying entity who could fly was an amazing thought to me. I cared more about the idea of his existence and my hopeful interaction with him than about getting presents. It should say a lot about that that I pleaded with my parents to buy cookies and milk for Santa when we normally never got to have those ourselves. And they did, because they saw how happy it made me, even though we really shouldn't have spent money on such frivolities.

Santa didn't teach me consumerism. Santa helped (along with my parents, my grandparents, and the kind people at the aforementioned charitable organizations) to teach me love, wonder, and joy in the face of what - though not through the naivete of a child - was a pretty dire situation.

Now, I know my experience is not a universal one. And as I said, the idea that Santa - in some families' incarnations at least - teaches consumerism may be a valid point, and certainly is a valid opinion and one I can respect. But those things are going to be taught to children living in families that personify those things regardless in my view, and in my experience there can be and often is much more to a child's relationship to the Santa myth than material gain.

Bottom line: people have the right to believe in and teach their children whatever they want. We can disagree with how people raise their kids, but to suggest that one way is the right way and another is the wrong way (again, nowhere near everyone in this topic has suggested this, but some have) is just as morally heavy-handed as those individuals often accuse religious individuals of being. And while I too agree that we needn't look to an external, mythical figure to instill that sense of wonder and joy in ourselves in situations like the ones I grew up in... try telling that to a small child. I wouldn't have comprehended that. I needed Santa when I was little. It was virtually all I had at times, and instead of dreary, cold, fearful childhood memories, thanks to Santa Claus I have happy ones.

I say everything above with the utmost respect for everyone's views. I know this is a contentious and divisive issue. And I'm not looking to get into an argument with anyone. But this is my two cents. Peace.

Originally posted by Battleline

Originally posted by FlySolo

Originally posted by Battleline
reply to post by FlySolo

 

No, by all means tell them the truth(or what YOU preceive as the truth) then show them this fine picture you have and let them cry there eye's out.........................and that will make it all better,Instead of allowing them to have some sort of peace during there childhood knowing that when they grow up they will see the horrors of humanity soon enough.

I truely hope you don't have kids,what a sad person.

You don't want me to have kids based on a controversial thread discussion and because I'm sad "allegedly"

What a cruel person you are and out of touch. I like to encourage FREE thinking. You don't know me, my beliefs, or the size of my heart. I truly hope your kids see past your bitterness to those who have a different opinion than you. Who are you to determine who is fit to have kids off a faceless website? I would make a great dad. Jerk.

"You" posted your opinion or beliefs and your right all i know about you is what you post and it would seem when I have an opinion and you don't like it then i am the bad guy.GREAT SPIN.

And all this is about "free thinking" what a cheep way to back out of your post, this is your post slick don't put it on me.

edit on 24-12-2011 by Battleline because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-12-2011 by Battleline because: (no reason given)

Yes. This is my thread and my opinion whereas I wouldn't volunteer Santa is real. So that makes it open season to suggest I wouldn't be fit as a parent? I didn't start a thread about how to raise kids so you're the one painting yourself as a baseless opinionated bad guy. Not me.

And how is free thinking backing out of my post? I still stand by my OP. Telling your kid Santa is real is not free thinking.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
What harm does it do? None. Who can sit here and honestly say they were harmed by believing in Santa?

Kids have great imagination. It is fun and helps to teach the spirit and goodness of giving.

Let them believe.

I don't know. Knowing about how Santa Claus felt about kids, and seeing that I rarely had any gifts come Christmas, I spent my childhood thinking I was just a bad kid. Sure, I didn't get any presents because my parents and I were pretty much dirt poor, and too proud to ask for help, but I didn't know better.

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by FreeDominator
reply to post by steveknows

 

But people seem to be confusing the concept of Santa with consumerism. There's no rule that says that a person can't make toys for thier children or limit the cost or amount of toys bought. Consumerism has nothing to do with the mental health of a child as a result of believing in Santa. And it's actually not related to the thread.

actually the thread title asks if we should keep lying..... I hate to burst your bubble but look at the image that the OP posted.... that is an illustration of ......... how this is related to consumerism!

edit on 24-12-2011 by FreeDominator because: sorry I put my comment within the quote.....

Yes I believe in Santa Clause, I love the spirit of love and will always cherish my memories of magnificent Christmas's past present and future.

My children still believe and will continue the tradition.

Originally posted by FreeDominator

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by FreeDominator
reply to post by steveknows

 

But people seem to be confusing the concept of Santa with consumerism. There's no rule that says that a person can't make toys for thier children or limit the cost or amount of toys bought. Consumerism has nothing to do with the mental health of a child as a result of believing in Santa. And it's actually not related to the thread.

actually the thread title asks if we should keep lying..... I hate to burst your bubble but look at the image that the OP posted.... that is an illustration of ......... how this is related to consumerism!

edit on 24-12-2011 by FreeDominator because: sorry I put my comment within the quote.....

Oh too true.

My aplogies to you, But I don't agree that Santa is about consumerism. What the market has done is think a different story.

No it doesn't. Christianity stole it and gave it to someone else.

reply to post by steveknows


Christianity stole what and gave it to whom?
Sources or opinion?