Government Motors Volt Costs Taxpayers $250,000 per Vehicle

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

NAFTA is pretty well on its last legs as what we are seeing in Europe as we don't want that happening here as we retake control of our central bank at the end of next year kills NAFTA cold!

As with about 80% of your posts: compleltey off-topic, and 100% wrong.

Maybe you didn't notice, but among Obama's "shovel-ready" projects funded by the 1st stimulus is the completion, in sections, of the NAFTA Highway." Completed, it will extend from South Texas through the Missouri amd Ohio Valleys, into Canada.

The I-69 portions in Indiana have already begun right-of-way (ROW) acquisition and the upgrading of existing roadways to accomodate the increased truck/freight traffic.

The South Texas portions were delayed due to an ill-advised attempt to inaugurate toll-road service throught the Rio Grande Valley and Coastal Plains, but it, too, is well on its way. Have you seen what they've done to I-35? I-37?

IOW, NAFTA is here to stay.

Once again, you fly off the rails without any regard for facts or truth. don't you ever feel ashamed for the faslehoods you so blithely try to pass along as fact?

As with Solyndra, Johnson Controls, Evergreen Solar, A123, Green Vehicles of Salinas, and countless failed "weatherizrtion"give-aways, the state-planned economy fails at almost every level.

A study by McKinsey suggests that clean energy ... will not produce many jobs for U.S. manufacturing workers. Gordon Hughes, formerly of the World Bank and now an economist at the University of Edinburgh, surveyed the landscape and concluded: “There are no sound economic arguments to support an assertion that green energy policies will increase the total level of employment in the medium or longer term when we hold macroeconomic conditions constant.”

www.nytimes.com...

The market, itself, and increased development and efficiency will do far more to drive (pun intended) us toward
a lwer0carbon industry.

Environmental values embedded in our society produce continuous improvements in air and water quality, resource conservation, waste handling, and technology. In terms of energy per dollar of GDP or carbon per dollar, our economy is becoming increasingly less energy and carbon intensive. In fact, as Jesse Ausubel of Rockefeller University has demonstrated “the United States has averaged about one percent less energy to produce a good or service each year since about 1800.”

Moreover, Ausubel has attributed this phenomenon not to government intervention but to the fact that “the natural evolution of the energy system is away from carbon.” Technology, innovation, and market forces have been the drivers. And they will continue to be if the government lets them function.

The lesson here is that government should not pick winners for future energy sources; rather, it should provide clear and consistent rules for competition and an environment that encourages private investment.

energy.nationaljournal.com...

In short, all of your hyperventilated whining and hand-wringing will never chang eht efacts that marketsw, not governments, are the best and highest regulators of carbon and the environment in general.

All Obama's subsidies do is hurt legitimate competition in favor of select products and industries, with no resaonable cost/benefit justification.

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by jdub297


Seeing how nearly like 5 million cars on the road are now hybrids I hardly consider it to be an unworkable and unsellable idea as it's obviously a success. Seeing how there are nearly 8,000 Volts in customer hands now hardly qualifies it as a failure.

So you're ok with your tax dollars being used to give subsidies to companies who send jobs overseas? That destroy the enviornment but God forbid a dollar is spent keeping an American employed, that's somehow evil and wrong and is against God?

The PHEV, EV is here to stay and is not going away regardless of what anyone thinks. Expect more to follow.

reply to post by jdub297


NAFTA is dead and if you believe anything else you are being deceived!

I get it now, Duh, you want NAFTA, you want to kill the Constitution, kill the USA all so that it'd be easier for a corporation to own us all! That's it! The truth now emerges!

reply to post by peck420


Increases where? I see none! It will only drop because the projected price in 2009 was $52,000 and in 2007 was estimated at $65,000 and the fact the 2012 price will drop to $40,000 is a $2,000 drop. What increases? As the tech expands the price will go down as it always does.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by peck420

 

Increases where? I see none! It will only drop because the projected price in 2009 was $52,000 and in 2007 was estimated at $65,000 and the fact the 2012 price will drop to $40,000 is a $2,000 drop. What increases? As the tech expands the price will go down as it always does.

I was talking about the general increase of costs for everything inside the US in the event of NAFTA repealed.

Having to purchase 25% of your country's energy needs at full market value tends to do that. NAFTA currently shelters the US from this. In exchange, Canada gets even access to a market far bigger than their internal population can sustain. I would say that it is a pretty fair agreement. My only complaint is the lack of binding terminology for disagreement resolution...I guess they never thought Canada and the US would have any major disagreements when they penned it.

As for you wanting NAFTA removed, well, frankly you are a fool. NAFTA has been beneficial to the US, Canada, and Mexico. The US has lost far more jobs to Asia, which is not part of NAFTA. But, why bother with silly little facts.

reply to post by peck420


NAFTA is pretty well dead in the water whereas even exportation of jobs for the most part has slowed progressively and has stayed in nation which is one key and crucial item they need to happen is the continued exportation in order to fulfill the quota required before it could be considered a success.

Any talk about sending any jobs overseas at this stage in the game in just pushing the knife in further for which the most part is considered to actually be taboo to even mention.

NAFTA's realities were learned by the public and resentment and threats of violent backlash pretty well killed it!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman

 

The one houseifre that gutted the place was as a direct result because dude would not install a 2nd circuit breaker box and decided like a moron to run the charger into his house's breaker box which overloaded the circuit which caused the fire as you are supposed to install a second breaker box and run the charger to the second box and that line run directly to the outside line. Doing anything else will cause a fire risk.

Wrong.
There is a Federal Probe opened about the entire fleet.
www.reuters.com...
autos.yahoo.com...
news.yahoo.com...

And so much so, that Gm is offering to purchase the vehicle back.
www.nytimes.com...
So, it is not confined to this "one" issue.

Again, staying on topic.
The $40k fire risk vehicle, is subsidized by the tax payer.
And it is so wildly popular that Chevy sold a whopping 6142 vehicles this year.
That, by any measure is a failure.
news.cnet.com...
www.bloomberg.com...

It is a waste of Tax Payer Money. That is the issue.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by peck420

 

Increases where? I see none! It will only drop because the projected price in 2009 was $52,000 and in 2007 was estimated at $65,000 and the fact the 2012 price will drop to $40,000 is a $2,000 drop. What increases? As the tech expands the price will go down as it always does.

A drop due to Tax Payer money injected into the Company and to the purchaser.
Basically, the left hand reaching into the right hand pocket, taking $20k, and combining it with the money from the left hand pocket and claiming it is a true offset.

reply to post by macman


If memory serves me correctly, don't they suspect that the charge controller is not controlling the charge correctly or not cooling the batteries correctly, thus leading to the fires?

I will have to look it up, my wife has GM shares, so we get copies of the GM releases regularly.

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by macman

 

If memory serves me correctly, don't they suspect that the charge controller is not controlling the charge correctly or not cooling the batteries correctly, thus leading to the fires?

I will have to look it up, my wife has GM shares, so we get copies of the GM releases regularly.

Yes, I believe so.
The charging cord is resisting the current at a higher rate, making it rise in Temp, thus creating heating issues back to the vehicle.

reply to post by macman


The money they got in 08 is long since spent. The money that exists today is the results of investments using said money. Different money! The taxpayer's risk has pretty well been concluded. If it is something as simple as a cord head replacement then let it be done before further attack on The Volt, which is American made (components can be ROW but final assembly is in The USA)!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
The taxpayer's risk has pretty well been concluded.

What? They still owe the United States taxpayers tens of billions which we will most likely never see.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


All owed money is to go towards employing Americans as they do that the debt can be forgiven and total balance is less then $2 Billion as they got $13.2 Billion so what's this tens of billions figure?

Instead of slamming GM who got literate table scraps and crumbs when compared to the banks who got Trillions collectively and that we'll never see so until you demand that banks pay back their money don't dare talk yap on GM.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
All owed money is to go towards employing Americans as they do that the debt can be forgiven and total balance is less then $2 Billion as they got $13.2 Billion so what's this tens of billions figure?

Since you ignored these two previous posts I will let you ponder them again:

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by jdub297

 

Wrong,

The loan was paid back sometime this past year :
www.factcheck.org...

A May 2011 report form The US Government Accountability Office report on the status of the loan:
www.gao.gov...

Do you just insist on denying facts, or is something else wrong?

You are using an Obama agency's figures, I'm relying on honest, indepoendent fact-checkers at ProPublica, who have followed every tranch of $$ in and out.
Where is the Money? Eye on the Bailout Bailout Recipients

GM still owes $28,000,000,000 (51billion delivered, 23 billion returned)

We still own 26% of GM stock, which has dropped like a rock since the IPO.

quote.morningstar.com...

We have lost another $16,500,000,000 since we took ownership.

28,0 + 16,5 = $44.5 billion down the tubes!

You insist this is a success?

General Motors owes 28 billion, which is tens of billions, and I am not even counting the crappy stock price for this lame company.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by Viesczy
Uhm, it was the gov't sending jobs overseas to make extra profits and where pollution laws are far more lax so they'd not need to be concerned about poisoning the environment? The gov't did that?
Derek

Of course! Obama made sure that GM's "leadership" followed his dictates, or they were forced to resign.

This included at least 2,400,000 cars produced in China alone.

General Motors Co. may hasten plans for boosting output in China after regulators in the world’s largest auto market said they will impose anti-dumping duties on some vehicles imported from the U.S.

Punitive duties of as much as 12.9 percent for its autos “may accelerate GM’s localization plans,” Himanshu Patel, a New York-based analyst for JPMorgan Chase & Co., wrote today in a note to clients. The Detroit-based automaker already plans to add local production in China and just 1.3 percent of GM’s 2.43 million sales in China last year were imported, he wrote.

GM May Boost China Production

But, that's not enough, he wants production in China, Brazil, et c., increased.

General Motors do Brasil is adding a third shift in the São Caetano do Sul plant, in the State of São Paulo, creating up to 1,500 new jobs as it prepares to produce four new Chevrolet products, GM Chairman and CEO Dan Akerson said Friday.
Akerson made the announcement during a visit with São Paulo Gov. Geraldo Alckmin.
“Brazil is a key player in the global economy and the investments we are making in the country show our confidence in its growth potential,” Akerson said. “In 2010, Brazil was the third-largest market for GM globally and the second largest for the Chevrolet brand.”

GM is on track to complete $3 billion of investment in Brazil between 2008 and 2012, GM South America and GM do Brasil President Jaime Ardila said.

GM do Brasil Adds Third Shift at São Caetano do Sul Plant, 1,500 new jobs

Why don't you try to do some research on your own?

General Motors is also using their bailout to increase capacity in other countries and move jobs overseas.

Instead of slamming GM who got literate table scraps and crumbs when compared to the banks who got Trillions collectively and that we'll never see so until you demand that banks pay back their money don't dare talk yap on GM.

Again, are you the General Motors Thought Police? I can say anything I want about this failed and pathetic excuse for a car manufacturer, they should have been reorganized.

As for the banks, which this thread is not about, they should all repay their money starting with Freddie and Fannie who were loaned a cumulative 183 billion and have paid back ZERO. This accounts for over 75% of the net outstanding debt of 243 billion from the TARP program. So, on the taxpayer scumbag rip-off scale, this puts them ahead of even General Motors. Now stick to the topic.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


That means the taxpayer still controls 61% stake of shares in the company until it's paid off completely end of discussion.

It's not a failure.

investor.gm.com...

They sold 2,069,469 total cars for 2011! Failure, my arse! The next major car launches Jan 2013 and will be the 2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

All owed money is to go towards employing Americans as they do that the debt can be forgiven and total balance is less then $2 Billion as they got $13.2 Billion so what's this tens of billions figure?

Instead of slamming GM who got literate table scraps and crumbs when compared to the banks who got Trillions collectively and that we'll never see so until you demand that banks pay back their money don't dare talk yap on GM.

edit on 31-12-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

You obviously continue trolling with no regard for truth or accuracy.

The figures I cited establishing the $64,000,000,000 given away to GM/UAW just scratches the surface. It doesn't include the $14,000,000,000 in income taxes wiped off the GM books through Obama's unlawful and unconstitutional efforts to buy off a specific constituency.

As for the original TARP, almost every penny allocated under GWBush has been paid back.

Obama's TARP II, et c. and the auto bailoutswere complete giveaways without any relation to jobs or job preservation.

It is so sad that so many on ATS insist on posting complete rubbish and acting as if they believed the lies and distortions that they propagate and proliferate.

There is no explanation for such dishonesty other than complete ignorance of fact or complete sell-out of integrity to foster a series of lies in support of a fascist system of government ownership and management of private industry.

Why don't those with such an agenda just publish their lies on a site that honors such lack of integrity?
Why do such shills and brain-dead supplicants at the altar of Obama persist in trolling legitimate discussions of facts that don't fit their imaginary world-view?

deny ignorance

jw

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
That means the taxpayer still controls 61% stake of shares in the company until it's paid off completely end of discussion.

And? Did you not see the declining stock price in the chart which means the value of said shares is plumeting? Stop ignoring the obvious to lamely support your failed position. The taxpayer should not own publically traded companies via a federal fiat. Do you not see that this is the point of the entire thread? Maybe we can get some Solyndra shares too while were at it....

They sold 2,069,469 total cars for 2011! Failure, my arse! The next major car launches Jan 2013 and will be the 2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7!

Who cares about the Corvette? They sold 17,000 in 2009, 12,000 in 2010 and 13,500 this year. Corvette is not the car General Motors builds to move the bottom line. They fail because they continue to operate with public money that they never should have gotten.

reply to post by jdub297


Debunked here

If You Want To Attack The Volt, Try To Get Your Math Right
www.greencarreports.com...

AND HERE

Bad math makes claim that each Volt cost taxpayers $250,000 go viral
green.autoblog.com...

"Fact: Each Volt does not – emphatically not – have $250,000 in taxpayer subsidies in it. The way that Hohman got to this figure is by taking the amount of state and federal assistance used to make the car (through loans to build or update manufacturing facilities, for example) and then divide by 6,000. Why 6,000? Because that's around how many GM has sold thus far. It's actually 6,142 for 2011 as of the end of November, but exact numbers are not Hohman's strong suit.

"This figure also wouldn't pass an MBA accounting course as it assumes that you're only going to sell 6,000 cars. Ever. It's artificially low because some of these subsidies are 20-year grants."

AND HERE

Setting it Straight: Chevy Volt vs. the Government
www.thestreet.com...

"Thus, if you divide this $1.5 billion "investment" over 60 million cars over the next 25+ years instead of the 6,000 made over the last year, or the 60,000 to be made next year, the alleged government subsidy comes to $25 per car, or what you will pay for two movie tickets in Manhattan, popcorn excluded. That's very different from the nasty $250,000 per Volt headline floating all over the Internet in the last couple of days."

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

All owed money is to go towards employing Americans as they do that the debt can be forgiven and total balance is less then $2 Billion as they got $13.2 Billion so what's this tens of billions figure?

Instead of slamming GM who got literate table scraps and crumbs when compared to the banks who got Trillions collectively and that we'll never see so until you demand that banks pay back their money don't dare talk yap on GM.

edit on 31-12-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

First, you say they don't owe anything; then, you lie that "all owed money is to go towards employing Americans.!"

You just refuse to see reality, don't you? We are "in" over $50,000,000,000 in taxpayer money that will NEVER come back.

You are obviously, and pathetically, trolling.

If GM and Chrysler had been allowed to go through bankruptcy, new enterprises would have developed, all without government ownership, to take up the obvious slack and fill the demand for auto production. That would have meant the UAW would have disappeared, and Obama and co. would have none of that.

They didn't save GM, they saved the auto worrkers' union.

As if those jobs were even worth saving:

General Motors Co is recalling 4,873 of its current year Chevrolet Sonic subcompact cars in the United States and Canada for possible missing front brake pads, the company and federal safety regulators said on Friday.
GM said it is recalling the cars to see if inner or outer front brake pads are missing.

GM said that its research shows that between 20 and 30 of the recalled cars were sold without one of its brake pads. Of the total recalled, 4,296 were sold to U.S. customers and 577 to Canadian customers, GM said.

Customers will be informed of the recall by mid-January, GM said.

GM recalls 4,873 Sonic cars in U.S. and Canada

What a complete and utter waste.

So is GM.

(Whatever happened to the "Ignore" button. I have never used it, but sure could right now.)

deny ignorance

jw


Read more: dailycaller.com...

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


It just really makes you so damn mad that GM is still around. It makes your blood boil that Americans still have jobs in America don't it?

Tell us how you truly feel about this, don't be shy!

You hate the fact that GM is a resounding success again! You hate the fact that America is now allowed to compete again!