EU fails to agree treaty - intergovernmental agreement instead. 2 tier Europe a reality, page 8

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reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:37 AM by Flavian

Originally posted by spacedonk
reply to post by Laurauk

I think you are wrong. The Euro will work when Europe becomes integrated into a United states of Europe with political and fiscal unity. The financial crisis just ushers in this integration at a faster rate IMHO.

It is still a currency in it's infancy, ultimately the second the Euro was taken up by multiple nations the path was set for full integration . I think this was noted by te UK which is why we really resisted the Euro. We have retained our sovereignty which multiple nations have given up.
edit on 13-12-2011 by spacedonk because: (no reason given)

If initially set up correctly, you would be correct. However, in the political rush to create the Euro no economic / financial safeguards were put in place. The result now is a total mess. Look at what was actually agreed last week at the summit - nothing at all! The markets have reacted as you would expect. The penalties talked about are a joke for nations that can't currently comply - they have no money so how would they pay fines? By the way, if you read the articles they were discussing adding last week then you will see that all fines must be paid in 7 days!

Give it another couple of weeks and we will have another crisis summit. The funniest thing is that by the time of the French Presidential elections, there is a very real possibility that Sarkozy will no longer even be in charge - and his rival says he will follow Cameron's lead in opting out.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:44 AM by spacedonk

reply to post by Flavian

Interesting point on Sarkozy, does the French law permit a sitting President to call a 'state of emergency' to continue his presidency to completion of a serious parliamentary matter? Anybody know? Otherwise there will be a rush job to get it through in time if his rival has categorically stated he will not sign an enhanced treaty.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:48 AM by Laurauk

Those in the EU parliament are calling for the UK A to loose its rebate. Like hell an it will.

Good way of adding more fuel to cause of Leaving the EU as a whole.

Those in the EU Parliament should not send out threats unless they can back them up.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:50 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by spacedonk

They had Hollande (the Socialist Presidential candidate) on the radio and he said even if it was signed he might not abide by it.. (it is an intergovernmental treaty after all) his comment was "we'll see" and Hollande is leading the presidential race and is opposed to any new treaty.

If my memory serves me correctly the presidential race will conclude just after this intergovernmental treaty is signed.. so one can wonder if the veto was intentional to aid the EU rather than hinder it.. a full treaty would have passed into the hands of whoever wins the French presidential elections.

edit on 13/12/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:56 AM by thoughtsfull

Originally posted by Laurauk
Those in the EU parliament are calling for the UK A to loose its rebate. Like hell an it will.

Good way of adding more fuel to cause of Leaving the EU as a whole.

Those in the EU Parliament should not send out threats unless they can back them up.

Seems they are ramping up the fear campaign to get the UKs buy in through fear, not the establishment but rather the people and I personally think they are taking the wrong route with the British people.. best to just leave us alone or it really will bite them on the arse.

reminds me of a line from one Kiplings poems

"The Saxon is not like us Normans. His manners are not so polite.
But he never means anything serious till he talks about justice and right.
When he stands like an ox in the furrow – with his sullen set eyes on your own,
And grumbles, 'This isn't fair dealing,' my son, leave the Saxon alone.
www.kipling.org.uk...

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:00 AM by Flavian

reply to post by thoughtsfull

I also see for the first time polls indicating that the populace of both France and Germany are falling out of love with the Euro in a major way - this is certainly significant.

However, for arguments sake, lets say the Euro is saved. I still don't think that works out badly for Britain as where does the EU think their big corporations will be doing their banking? That's right, lovely off shore Britain.

And the rebate thing is a joke as well. Why risk upsetting Britain by talking of stopping the rebate (again)? As by far the second largest contributor, we could simply choose to stop contributing. Good luck then in Brussels!

edit on 13-12-2011 by Flavian because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:01 AM by Flavian

reply to post by thoughtsfull

Absolutely bloody brilliant

Any excuse for a bit of Kipling is a good thing. Same goes for Mr Kipling too!

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:08 AM by Laurauk

reply to post by Flavian

Oh but the Officials in the EU will not let on with regards to this. They do not want anything or anyone to disrupt their dream, of becoming and United States of Europe.

Just shows how bad the mentality is with those whom are running the EU.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:12 AM by thoughtsfull

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by thoughtsfull

Absolutely bloody brilliant

Any excuse for a bit of Kipling is a good thing. Same goes for Mr Kipling too!

There is always space to crowbar in a bit of Kipling... especially Mr Kipling

But I can not help but feel the EU is miss reading the situation.. while the media hammer on about how bad this was, the British people appear to me to be standing arms crossed with a wry smile.. in my opinion anything more than leaving us alone right now is going to be pretty unwise. but then again this is the EU.. I guess we'll see how this develops and how many other countries join us in the land of billy no mates

edit on 13/12/11 by thoughtsfull because: whoops

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:20 AM by Flavian

reply to post by thoughtsfull

That's it isn't it? I have always been pro Europe (not pro Euro) but TBH the posturing coming out of Brussels now is generally leaving me with the old "nobody likes us but we don't care" attitude.

Fine, leave us alone while you sink. We have a good view from just off shore.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:32 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by Flavian

That seems to be the feeling from most people I know regardless of political view, any more of this silliness from Brussels is going to cause many many more people to simply dig in their heels..

So I certainly feel they have really miss read the nature of the British people, or have they? There are so many games being played at the moment I have to wonder if we are still being played, and this is the reaction they want?

Sometimes it hard being an untrusting conspiracy theorist

Edit to remind myself to slow down the speed of my typing..

edit on 13/12/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:42 AM by Laurauk

reply to post by thoughtsfull

Hence What I have previously stated in other threads.

It has been always claimed that Germany might have lost World War 2,but they will win through peace.

Now I am not saying all this is a German doing.

But it falls into place.

Have the UK go up against Germany once again, only this time It wont be the rest of EU V Germany, it will be the UK V the whole of the EU.

Maybe this is what those who are running this fiasco from behind the scenes are wanting. a major flare up in Europe once again.

Or it could be I am reading too much into this?

edit on 13-12-2011 by Laurauk because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 08:55 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by Laurauk

To be honest I have felt for the last couple of years that they (whoever are pulling the strings) have left few avenues open aside from confrontation and conflict..

For my mind it it'll either take the form of internal civil strife/open rebellion that marked the economic depression of the 1830s or as you rightly are concerned about, external conflict pitting nation against nation that marked the economic depression of the 1930s.

My hope is another avenue is found, but unless we have some new version of the industrial revolution to create new wealth and new job opportunities I can't help but feel we have been cornered into whatever happens next.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 09:00 AM by Laurauk

reply to post by thoughtsfull

It would be beneficial for those who run the arms industry for another major conflict within Europe. Not only the European Arms Industry but external Arms Companies.

Just something about all of this bugs my happiness.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 09:20 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by Laurauk

As usual those people in that industry will work both sides of the fence for as long as they can.. but it'll be interesting to see who comes and joins us on our side (where all the fun is really