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EU fails to agree treaty - intergovernmental agreement instead. 2 tier Europe a reality

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posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


Overall?

I think it's pretty clear cut; whilst the South has always been largely a Tory stronghold the North remains predominantly Labour.
And as a generalisation it sums up peoples attitudes to Thatcher.

Cameron had no option here...The City would have abandoned him to the will of 'the people' if he hadn't done as they wished....and 'the people' would never have forgiven him if he had buckled and caved in to the Franco-German demands.
One of the rare occassions where TPTB and 'the people' had common cause....though for entirely different reasons.

I bear the people of the EU no ill will and I hope the new regulations help bring about the stability everybody apparently wishes.
But the British PM has a duty to put British interests first at all times - something all PM's from Heath onwards have failed to do - and the minute 'he' fails to do this he should be immediately removed.
edit on 9/12/11 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


You might have to remember Thatcher, threatened to hold the EU to randsom if she did not get her way over, the UK contributions to the EU.

Also during Majors reign, which was short. The UK representatives in the EU were ordered to walk out of all meetings over some disagreement.

So to state no PM Since Heath has stood up to the EU is wrong. The only PM's I have known to go along with the EU have been Labour PM's
edit on 9-12-2011 by Laurauk because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by GoalPoster
 



Solving the debt crisis in seven pages . . . there's a whole lot of phrases such as move towards and will require and commit to establishing and will continue to work on . . . and many inferences of pretty much taking self-determination out of the hands of all but the very wealthiest of member nations.


Yes, what is interesting, is that the penalties for offenses relating to the deficits, will be taken by the majority principle. In other words Germany, France and Italy will dictate fiscal measures, that the smaller countries will follow, without the chance of placing a veto, since the participation of Germany, France and Italy in the ESM is over 15%. Essentially, only the major countries of the Euro-zone, (Germany, France and Italy), have the right to veto.


Nice to see all the back-patting and collective squeeling of the trough-bound piggies they are, but it seems to me it's only a matter of time before they all become pork chops as power becomes more and more consolidated.


That is the goal for the new EU that we will see in the near future. A more centralized type of union.


Can't wait to see how this plays out on main street once the constituents of the aformentioned squeeling piggies realize they're in for a decade or two of goose-stepping to austerity measures determined abroad.


One thing is for sure. We are having difficult and interesting times ahead of us.

Peace



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by Laurauk
 


Nothing in this world is black and white, I'm sure you realise this.

I didn't say that no British PM had ever stood up to them, I said that British PM's have a duty to put British interest's first at ALL times and every single PM from Heath onwards, and our current Sovereign for that matter, has failed to do this and have signed away sovereignty of this Union to a foreign power - the EU.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:15 AM
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Europe is a sham.
What Europeans here feel European? I don't.
I'm from where I was born and will be till the day I die.
In Europe, everyone is different. Even countries that might seem similar to each other.
Complete BS.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:24 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I know what you are saying but honestly, check out voting figures for England since 1945. Note i say just England. We are Tory land whether people would like to admit it or not - i think it has to do with the values we generally hold (rather the stupid party politics it has descended into in the last 15 years).



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Dr Cosma
 


I feel like a European because i am one - i have huge respect for our other euro nations. However, foremost i feel British (well actually i feel Yorkshire but that is another issue entirely!).



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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I posted this in the other thread, but it has relevance here as well . . .


The reality is setting it . . . Cameron was the only leader with the cojones to say in a room what more and more of these 'partners' are saying just hours after the supposed Euro-saving agreement . . .


“People are starting to realize that what has been announced has already been relatively well-known,” said Charles St-Arnaud, a foreign-exchange strategist at Nomura Holdings Inc. in New York. “The issue that we have is that every single country in the euro zone has to approve the rules and you’re already starting to hear countries not keen to lose sovereignty like that.”


Source

There's pretty much a consensus brewing that participant countries won't get the mandate necessary to implement austerity measures required in the agreement, not will they be at all accommodating to the requirement to fess up a whack of dough as their share of the 200,000,000,000 bailout fund required as part of the deal.

Again, it appears that only Cameron had the big-n-hairies to say, Thanks, but no thanks.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


You are like me, I prefer to say I am Glaswegian first of all, then Scottish, then British, Saying I am European is last thing on my mind as far as identity comes into it. I think the perception of those in Brussels is that they want everyone to identify themselves as European and drop their national identities.

Even if they try and force that Identity on people who do not want it. That is the biggest problem in the EU, they do not respect decisions of democratic countries.
edit on 9-12-2011 by Laurauk because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Laurauk
reply to post by Flavian
 


You are like me, I prefer to say I am Glaswegian first of all, then Scottish, then British,


Well we all have our crosses to bear!


Sorry, couldn't resist. I love this country (in all its incarnations), i love Europe. In fact generally, im just a loving kind of person!


Im just pleased we have a leader at long last that is actually prepared to say "no" and sod the outcomes. That is proper leadership in my mind, not namby pambying about trying to please everyone.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


The south is Tory through and through.....and at times I feel I have as little in common with southerners as I have with continetal Europeans.

I know York is a slightly more affluent area of Northern England but I'm sure you must be aware of the social, political, economic and even cultural differences that constitute the very real North / South divide.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


Look, i get what you are saying. After all, the Labour Party was born in Bradford. However, the office for statistics shows that on election years, the Tories have consistently got over 42% since the 1945 election in England. This would be enough to form a government with a majority if the other parts of the UK were also not included in the vote. Probably why there is not massive Tory opposition to Scottish plans for independence - it opens up the path for more Tory governments.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by Laurauk
 




Saying I am European is last thing on my mind as far as identity comes into it.


I'm "Yanito", then I'm British and that's where it ends.
Someday we hope to be just Yanito.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 




Im just pleased we have a leader at long last that is actually prepared to say "no" and sod the outcomes. That is proper leadership in my mind, not namby pambying about trying to please everyone.


But he has pleased more or less everyone; The City, the Bankers, the electorate all supported this action....as long as he remained resolute then domestically he couldn't lose.

However, I am under no illusions - if The City and the Bankers had wanted him to agree to these regulations he would have sold the electorate out without giving it a second thought.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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all this war fearmongering - i cannot see the EU members fight each other because of this or even the collapse...its like in america, just because one state is broke, and the other one still has money they fight each other...

so i give a HUGE F**K about all this money talk...if it hits the fan so what...actualy thats what all (most) of us are looking forward to - a reset, no dept and a basis for equality...



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Flavian
 


The south is Tory through and through.....and at times I feel I have as little in common with southerners as I have with continetal Europeans.

I know York is a slightly more affluent area of Northern England but I'm sure you must be aware of the social, political, economic and even cultural differences that constitute the very real North / South divide.


I feel exactly the same. The last time i went 'down south' was to Peterborough. We asked a couple of people where the stadium was and they just looked at us as if we were speaking a foreign language, everybody had their heads down doing some xmas shopping, not talking to anyone. And i thought they said it was grim up north!

As many of you have pointed out, getting every country in the EU singing from the same hymn sheet is like trying to plait p*ss, no two countries are the same! It's hard enough for one Government to try to run a country with as many cultural divides such as the UK... One example for instance is the tax on, and i hate this phrase "gas guzzlers" in the UK. All very well for the people of Westminster and Chelsea, but what about that lonely farmer up on the Pennines or the Scottish Highlands rearing sheep and having to drive miles and miles on dirt roads and cross country, he can't buy one of those god forsaken Toyota Prius's, he needs that Land Rover or the farming economy would fail. He now has to pay a bucket load more! Obviously it has to be one rule for all, so there is the dilema
edit on 9/12/2011 by ThorsBrother because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Laurauk
Well it is official on UK News Channels

The UK stands alone, as all Of the other EU countries have agreed to draw up a new treaty for the Euro Zone.

And so it begins.


What about Hungary and the CZ Republic?
Didn't they back out as well?



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Cosma
Europe is a sham.
What Europeans here feel European? I don't.
I'm from where I was born and will be till the day I die.
In Europe, everyone is different. Even countries that might seem similar to each other.
Complete BS.



The only thing I consider European about myself is my race and skin colour. IE European Civilisation etc.

European Civilisation got on fine before this EEC / EU bs that's been sneaking in under the skin.
About time it was rolled back.
Cameron won't do it though, unless his City buddies say so.

Maybe there's been a rumble between the ptb factions?



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by WatchRider
 




European Civilisation got on fine before this EEC / EU bs that's been sneaking in under the skin.


Nice comment

It's how I think also.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:48 PM
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I am one of David Cameron's harshest critics but well done to him for sticking it to Merkel and Sarkhozy.

France and Germany have both failed in the past to create their dream European Empires militarily and are using the EU to try and create it through economic control. And it looks as though, as before in history, it will be up to us in the UK to save Europe from itself again.






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