EU fails to agree treaty - intergovernmental agreement instead. 2 tier Europe a reality

reply to post by Maya00a


May I ask why you feel even if we left the EU would you be asked to leave?

That would also apply to all those EU nationals now in the UK.. Imagine the pain that would cause and the impact on the many economies throwing those nationals out of the UK would cause. I'm sorry but feel it simply is not going to happen.

It would be like Europe placing sanctions and restrictions on the UK, they would in effect be placing sanctions/restrictions on themselves as a lot of those companies are European (e.g BMW etc) and I sure at the moment they really do not want to further hurt the profits of those companies.

The worse case would be that they reach an agreement to allow people and companies to stay where they are.

Think of how isolated Ireland would be otherwise... e.g a lot of major global companies I know in the IT field ship to Ireland to distribute to the UK who then distribute to Europe.. if the UK left the EU then those goods would be going through a non EU country and therefore I would expect those companies to up sticks and move to the continent crushing the Irish economy further.

Personally I lean towards the notion that this was set up deliberately by all those involved, an intergovernmental treaty would be quicker to push through than a new treaty and avoids the raft of referendums that could scupper the plan quite quickly.

It's not as tho they like to go to the people and ask them what they want, and they certainly know how to sidestep their own rules, e.g lending to the IMF to lend back sidesteps EU laws.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Talk of sanctions is just stupid too - if the UK did leave the EU then the EU would deal with it like any other state outside the EU - how difficult is it to trade between the USA and the EU??

Believe it or not states are actually capable of trading, having diplomatic relations, different currencies, etc, without resorting to war at the drop of a hat like most on ATS seem to think is what constitutes diplomacy!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I agree.. especially in the case of UK/EU given that such sanctions would be more like kicking European companies in the nuts and then isolating a European country from the rest of Europe. (in the case of Ireland)

Which is why when it boils down to it, I think the whole thing was very fishy and smells of another scam.. especially given the media attention..

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Maya00a

 

May I ask why you feel even if we left the EU would you be asked to leave?

That would also apply to all those EU nationals now in the UK.. Imagine the pain that would cause and the impact on the many economies throwing those nationals out of the UK would cause. I'm sorry but feel it simply is not going to happen.

It would be like Europe placing sanctions and restrictions on the UK, they would in effect be placing sanctions/restrictions on themselves as a lot of those companies are European (e.g BMW etc) and I sure at the moment they really do not want to further hurt the profits of those companies.

The worse case would be that they reach an agreement to allow people and companies to stay where they are.

Think of how isolated Ireland would be otherwise... e.g a lot of major global companies I know in the IT field ship to Ireland to distribute to the UK who then distribute to Europe.. if the UK left the EU then those goods would be going through a non EU country and therefore I would expect those companies to up sticks and move to the continent crushing the Irish economy further.

Personally I lean towards the notion that this was set up deliberately by all those involved, an intergovernmental treaty would be quicker to push through than a new treaty and avoids the raft of referendums that could scupper the plan quite quickly.

It's not as tho they like to go to the people and ask them what they want, and they certainly know how to sidestep their own rules, e.g lending to the IMF to lend back sidesteps EU laws.

edit on 11/12/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)

Well, I would hope we wouldn't be asked to leave which is why I think a plan must have been agreed when Britain joined the EU.

There certainly would be many downsides regarding trade restrictions, if Britain were to leave the EU and it would be shear chaos if all the British expats suddenly found they couldn't live in another European country! We personally import a lot of goods that are manufactured in Britain, we have a mortgage on our home, our children attend Spanish school, we've been paying tax and social security here towards our future pension ( ), we use their health service, etc etc. Vice versa with the Europeans now living in the UK. This must surely have all been considered when we joined the EU so I'm sure there's some plan in place.

It is purely our European citizen status that allows us to live and work here without having to go through lots of immigration hoops. Even a British driving license is only valid here if it is the 'new' pink card variety with the EU flag on. If Britain was no longer part of the EU then I assume Brits would no longer be considered EU citizens so I hope someone thought of this when we first joined.

I have lived and worked in the Middle East and USA and both times had to have a full medical, police checks, etc, before being granted a temporary visa/residence permit. None of that applied when I chose to live and work in another EU country but probably would have if Britain hadn't been a member. I just can't see Britain leaving the EU because of the chaos it would cause regarding trade, expats returning and EU nationals having to leave the UK. I'd just be interested to know our 'rights' regarding living and working in EU countries should Britain actually leave because this must surely have been agreed when they joined.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Talk of sanctions is just stupid too - if the UK did leave the EU then the EU would deal with it like any other state outside the EU - how difficult is it to trade between the USA and the EU??

Believe it or not states are actually capable of trading, having diplomatic relations, different currencies, etc, without resorting to war at the drop of a hat like most on ATS seem to think is what constitutes diplomacy!

I don't think official sanctions would be needed. We import goods from Britain and other EU countries without having to pay import taxes. We only purchase from outside of the EU if it's a specific product that the end customer is willing to pay additional taxes for, and that doesn't happen very often. The goods we buy are mainly manufactured in Britain and Germany so if we had to pay import taxes, to buy from the UK, our end customers probably wouldn't want to pay the extra and we'd end up only importing from Germany so on a large scale that would obviously have an impact on the British economy.


Edit to add: At the moment something like 50% of British manufacturing is exported to Europe. I dread to think what that figure would go down to if import taxes had to be applied to British products.

reply to post by Maya00a


While I do understand what you are saying, the sheer volume of movement and disruption would cause as much a crisis as the present one! I would say (and I have friends, family and colleagues living and working in Europe and have spent years implementing EU directives across the EU) that the chance of either side starting what would be a tit for tat match almost zero, especially when you factor in the EUs Human Rights laws..

Originally posted by Maya00a

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Talk of sanctions is just stupid too - if the UK did leave the EU then the EU would deal with it like any other state outside the EU - how difficult is it to trade between the USA and the EU??

Believe it or not states are actually capable of trading, having diplomatic relations, different currencies, etc, without resorting to war at the drop of a hat like most on ATS seem to think is what constitutes diplomacy!

I don't think official sanctions would be needed. We import goods from Britain and other EU countries without having to pay import taxes. We only purchase from outside of the EU if it's a specific product that the end customer is willing to pay additional taxes for, and that doesn't happen very often. The goods we buy are mainly manufactured in Britain and Germany so if we had to pay import taxes, to buy from the UK, our end customers probably wouldn't want to pay the extra and we'd end up only importing from Germany so on a large scale that would obviously have an impact on the British economy.

edit on 11-12-2011 by Maya00a because: (no reason given)

Edit to add: At the moment something like 50% of British manufacturing is exported to Europe. I dread to think what that figure would go down to if import taxes had to be applied to British products.

edit on 11-12-2011 by Maya00a because: (no reason given)

How much of those exports are from European companies like BMW? any kind of tariff war with Europe would be no more than a massive shot in the foot. So I honestly can't see that happening without some really major change.

reply to post by Maya00a


If and when the UK leaves the EU, I dont think it would make a lot of difference to ex-pats living in EU countries. When the UK leaves the EU, it can easily go back to re-joining EFTA which it originally founded. We could then scrap most of the stupid EU regulations and make our manufacturing and agriculture more productive ....... This is what the French fear the most.

None of this will affect trade. Countries trade all over the world and are not in economic blocs .... If the goods are what someone wants, then they will buy them regardless of where it is made or if they are in an economic bloc. The so-called fear about trade is all smoke and mirrors. People will trade regardless of who is running a country or alliance.

If it did get to the point of all ex-pats being repatriated, then remember the French have at least 500,000 of their countrymen in the UK, let alone ALL of the other EU countries. Add to this, most of the BIG Companies are multi-nationals so have factories all over the EU and the rest of the world.

I am not saying it would be easy for the UK, but I am dammed sure there are some contingency plans being drawn up for when we do withdraw from the EU. In all, a withdrawal will be hard at first, but I think the end game will show that we were right to do so.

reply to post by Wotan


The questions we should be asking ourselves in the UK now that we are basically isolated in Europe and now the US does not take us seriously anymore.

Where do we stand in this world.

Are we going to become the next rogue state in the world?

Are we on a bigger collision course with France.

We in the UK should boycott French Products

Originally posted by Laurauk
reply to post by Wotan

 

The questions we should be asking ourselves in the UK now that we are basically isolated in Europe and now the US does not take us seriously anymore.

It isn't over till the fat lady sings.
The implication of the Eurozone countries subjugating themselves still further to the EU cabal has yet to sink in with their populations. I foresee unrest on a par with 'the Arab Spring'. The UK had a choice of jumping on the Titanic in the hope of getting a life raft. It chose not to. We will probably still all be submerged by the global financial tsunami that's coming.

reply to post by starchild10


We the UK should be grateful that we did not join the Euro. The UK has been nearly bankrupt before, after World War 2. If ones memory is correct. After a lot of hard austerity measures the UK pulled through that.

They have done this once before. The UK can do it once again I believe anyways.

If anyone the Europeans have to blame for the state of the Euro are themselves. It was never workable anyways.

In parliament yesterday there was a suggestion that the UK has become an offshore jurisdiction in Europe. I quite like the idea of the competitive advantage this would grant us globally. Imagine the UK being seen as a gateway to Europe for service industry's including finance technology etc. Let's face it we are never going to manufacture anything ever again, so let's stop messing around and just get on with it!

reply to post by Laurauk


I think you are wrong. The Euro will work when Europe becomes integrated into a United states of Europe with political and fiscal unity. The financial crisis just ushers in this integration at a faster rate IMHO.

It is still a currency in it's infancy, ultimately the second the Euro was taken up by multiple nations the path was set for full integration . I think this was noted by te UK which is why we really resisted the Euro. We have retained our sovereignty which multiple nations have given up.

reply to post by spacedonk


The way things are going no it will not.

The whole EU project was a failure from the start of it being introduced.

For one all those countries whom went into the Euro had different deficits.

The whole project was unsustainable. Now it is the ordinary Citizens in the EU who are having to suffer, as a result of their Governments failures. And also the fact that those citizens are not allowed to have a say in the direction of the Euro, says it all really.

If going by the protests in Europe. I would state that not everything is hunky dory.

And If those in Brussels, think they can bully the UK into something which we do no agree with, like what they done to the Irish. Then they have a very long time to wait. It will just add more fuel for the Citizens in the UK to demand that we leave the EU all together.

Originally posted by spacedonk
reply to post by Laurauk

 

I think you are wrong. The Euro will work when Europe becomes integrated into a United states of Europe with political and fiscal unity. The financial crisis just ushers in this integration at a faster rate IMHO.

It is still a currency in it's infancy, ultimately the second the Euro was taken up by multiple nations the path was set for full integration . I think this was noted by te UK which is why we really resisted the Euro. We have retained our sovereignty which multiple nations have given up.

edit on 13-12-2011 by spacedonk because: (no reason given)

I strongly doubt that the folks making up a proposed United States of Europe would be all that willing to part with thier sovereign rights, implied or otherwise. Hell, the citizens of some of those countries can't even play nice with each other let alone something on a grander scheme, so to speak.

reply to post by GoalPoster


Well look at what they done to the Irish, after they used their democratic rights and voted no. They forced the EU down their throats.

If that does not show anyone how power hungry those in Brussels are then nothing will.

I agree 100 percent . . . it would appear that the S & M 'union' is more about securing their place in the history books than dealing with the economic mess that is Europe.

Originally posted by GoalPoster

Originally posted by spacedonk
reply to post by Laurauk

 

I think you are wrong. The Euro will work when Europe becomes integrated into a United states of Europe with political and fiscal unity. The financial crisis just ushers in this integration at a faster rate IMHO.

It is still a currency in it's infancy, ultimately the second the Euro was taken up by multiple nations the path was set for full integration . I think this was noted by te UK which is why we really resisted the Euro. We have retained our sovereignty which multiple nations have given up.

edit on 13-12-2011 by spacedonk because: (no reason given)

I strongly doubt that the folks making up a proposed United States of Europe would be all that willing to part with thier sovereign rights, implied or otherwise. Hell, the citizens of some of those countries can't even play nice with each other let alone something on a grander scheme, so to speak.

But the folks running said countries will be rewarded generously for complying (and vice versa). The ordinary citizens don't count. When we are at the brink of financial armageddon and even war, the United States of Europe will be sold to us as a solution, as the only possible way out. In fact Mission Takeover has already started. Two countries already under the yoke and another 17 on the way. All part of the Agenda.

If folks like Sarkozy and Merkel and others of that ilk who stand to benefit most peer down from their ivory towers long enough, they'll soon realize that those sparkles they see among the masses are not from big toothy grins, rather the blades of knives destined for their backsides.

The one thing all these fearless leaders and their platitudes have yet to address is that their stupid dumb-assed leadership (or lack thereof) played an important cog in the economic wheel that is now headed downhill and picking up speed.

They're thinking in the hundreds of billions of euros while the huddled masses are trying to save up enough dough to make sure they've got something decent for Christmas dinner.

European leaders are pretty much the same as those around the world . . . they've lost any sort of touch with reality and the people they're supposed to represent . . . all in favour of whomever can get their butts elected for another term in office so they can further their bought-and-paid-for agendas.

That's all what this is about . . . saving the banking system and those who hold the purse-strings because if it really was about the little guy, governments collectively around the world would unite in their efforts to make sure that at least some of the gazillion trillions they're spending propping up the banking system would instead go to prop up those who are suffering most. Do you think Merkel or Sarkozy ever lay awake at night trying to figure out how to keep the lights on, heat the house, feed the kids, pay the damn taxes, and still have a bit left over to make Christmas at least one day of the year where everyone's not on tenterhooks waiting for the next shoe to fall?

I'm thinkin', no.

They're too busy mastering the fine art of politically and fiscally fellating the rich in some grand hope that if they please their masters properly, they'll get the key to the executive pisser someday.

I really, truly and honestly hope there is such a massive revolt around the planet that all the fat rich pricks who pushed that wheel over the top of tha hill are found hiding under their beds, fudging up their undies and begging unsuccessfully for mercy.

I'm goin' outside for a schmoke . . . I need to calm down now.

Originally posted by starchild10

Originally posted by GoalPoster

Originally posted by spacedonk
reply to post by Laurauk

 

I think you are wrong. The Euro will work when Europe becomes integrated into a United states of Europe with political and fiscal unity. The financial crisis just ushers in this integration at a faster rate IMHO.

It is still a currency in it's infancy, ultimately the second the Euro was taken up by multiple nations the path was set for full integration . I think this was noted by te UK which is why we really resisted the Euro. We have retained our sovereignty which multiple nations have given up.

edit on 13-12-2011 by spacedonk because: (no reason given)

I strongly doubt that the folks making up a proposed United States of Europe would be all that willing to part with thier sovereign rights, implied or otherwise. Hell, the citizens of some of those countries can't even play nice with each other let alone something on a grander scheme, so to speak.

But the folks running said countries will be rewarded generously for complying (and vice versa). The ordinary citizens don't count. When we are at the brink of financial armageddon and even war, the United States of Europe will be sold to us as a solution, as the only possible way out. In fact Mission Takeover has already started. Two countries already under the yoke and another 17 on the way. All part of the Agenda.

edit on 13-12-2011 by starchild10 because: (no reason given)

Put much more eloquently than I managed! The point is it will and is currently being placed as the 'only solution'. I think Laura makes valid points as well, however I can see the inevitability of a 'USE' ever since the currency was embraced. It does not make sense for it to have been brought in unless it was the final goal and as stupid as some politicians are not every signatory to the Euro can possibly have been that naive as to think differently IMO.

On another note, if you extrapolate the future of the human race to a point where we colonise other planets then a United States of the World is also inevitable with a 'President of Earth'. All it needs is time and the space exploration technology for it to become needed. We know from history colony x on planet x will soon enough declare independence from Earth - all it needs is time. I see the integration of europe as just a time issue