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Originally posted by luxordelphi
1. The boat moon is being seen in places where it has not been seen before unless you count ancient archeological digs where it is sometimes depicted on petroglyphs etc.
2. The NASA/Cornell explanation for this boat moon at latitudes far from the equator based on THEIR diagram was that the moon is seasonal and has a winter and summer path.

I don't really care if NASA depicted it that way or not. I've always known a heavily tilted Moon (which are "not quite" a boat Moon, like the pictures the OP shows from as Vegas) can bee seen farther north during the Northern Hemisphere winter. I've been a skywatcher for decades, and I've understood for decades why the Moon can look tilted, even before someone posted that NASA image.

Think of it this way:

First of all, for definition purposes, let's not call it a boat moon, because the amount of tilt that qualifies as a "Boat Moon" seems to be a subjective thing -- different people will call different amounts of tilt a "Boat Moon". So, for the sake of this post, let's call a perfectly horizontal Moon as one that is tilted 90° and a perfectly vertical Moon one that is tilted 0°.

Can we agree that during the equinox, the equator on the nighttime side of the planet will be most directly under the Moon. and therefore at that time (during the equinox) is the only time when the equator sees the the 90° tilted Moon (what some would call the 100% horizontal Boat Moon)?

Can we also agree that this perfectly horizontal 90° tilted Moon can also be seen as far North as the Tropic of Cancer (23° N Latitude)? However, this would only occur during the Winter Solstice, when the Earth is tilted in such a way that the Tropic of Cancer on the nighttime side of the earth is direct beneath the orbit of the Moon. 23° North latitude would be places such as Mexico, about half-way between Mexico City and Texas.

This is because, in general (but not exactly), for every 1° north a person goes, the Moon will look about 1° less tilted. Can we agree on all of this so far?

I'm going to throw a bit of a wrench into this, because I have thus far ignored the fact that the Moon (at the moment) orbits about 5° higher that the ecliptic plane due to natural perturbations in its.

Therefore, and taking this 5° perturbation into account, the people at the equator don't really see the 90° tilted "Boat Moon" on the day equinox. but rather people at about 5° North Latitude do. The people at the equator see a 90° tiled moon some other time of the year, but not on the equinox. The people at the equator on this day will see an 85° tilted Moon (not quite the perfectly horizontal "Boat Moon"). Also, taking into account this perturbation, people as far north as (about) 28° will be able to see the 90° tilted "Boat Moon" in the nighttime sky on the Winter Solstice (23° + 5° = 28°). This means places such as Texas and Florida can see this perfectly horizontal Moon.

Remember what I said above: In general (but not exactly), for every 1° north a person goes, the Moon will look about 1° less tilted. Therefore, people at -- say, for example -- 36° north latitude, such as your home in Las Vegas, plus Monterey CA, the Kansas/Oklahoma border, Tennessee, and North Carolina will be able to see an 82° tilted Moon in the winter night sky. This is close to the perfectly horizontal Boat Moon, but not quite. It is probably close enough to horizontal for some people to call it a "Boat Moon".

Again, this is taking into account the 5° orbital inclination of the Moon (which, as you said, varies on an 18.6 year cycle). Ignoring this 5° will mean that the Winter nighttime Moon at 36° north latitude can look 77° tilted. Not perfectly horizontal, but enough for some to say "Boat Moon".

Below, I'll give examples of how tilted the Moon can look in the winter night sky BOTH ignoring the 5° inclination AND taking that into account, and still using the general rule that for every 1° north a person goes, the Moon will look about 1° less tilted.

Winter night sky, 40° North Latitude (Northern Calif., Nebraska, Philadelphia):
Without 5° inclination: The Moon can look as much as 73° tilted
With 5° inclination: an look as much as 78° tilted (which many would call subjectively boat Moon)

Winter night sky, 45° North Latitude (Oregon, Michigan, Ottawa):
Without 5° Inclination: 68° tilted
With 5°: 73° tilted

According to the math, in the winter night sky in Ottawa Canada, the moon can look heavily tilted, something like this:



By the way, the Summer night sky will be different due to Earth's tilt...
Summer night sky, 45° North Latitude (Oregon, Michigan, Ottawa Canada):
Without 5° inclination: 22° tilted
With 5°: 27° tilted

Still a little tilted, but not as much as winter. It would look something like this from Ottawa:

(...continued from above)

In the Summer in Las Vegas, it can look 31° to 36° tilted.

So according to the calculations, even in the summertime in Las Vegas, the Moon when seen at night can look as much as 31° to 36° tilted. That may not be a boat Moon, but is still tilted, and looks something like this:



As explained before, the difference from winter to summer is due to the fact that the apparent tilt of the earth is different from winter to summer -- as much as 46° different.


*************************************

The stuff in my other post above is not something I'm just making up now in order to make up an explanation for what I am observing. I would come up with this explanation even if I never observed to Moon in the sky, nor if anyone ever told me about "boat moons".

Rather, this is all based on logical deduction using facts and data that are decades and hundreds of years old. Without ever looking up into the sky, someone could take these raw data and facts and deduce that people in Las Vegas could see a very heavily tilted Moon (83° tilted) in the nighttime sky during the winter. If you gave an alien who never been to Earth the data about the Earth's tilt and the orbit of the Moon, they would came back and tell you the same thing I said in the post above.

The observations agree with the math, which was done independent of the observations -- i.e., I didn't "fudge" the math to agree with the observations.

So it's not the Moon that's wrong, but rather it is your memory that is wrong.
The facts don't lie, but people's memories can be mistaken.

I'd like to clarify something I wrote a few posts back so as not to cause confusion...

...I said the the reason the Sun, Moon, and stars all look different during different seasons is due to the same reason -- the tilt of the Earth. That's not exactly true for the stars. It is true that the locations of the stars in the sky look different seasonally, but not strictly due to the Earth's tilt, but rather the fact that the nighttime side of the Earth is facing a different part of space.

I should have been more clear on that.

However, the fact still remains that the reason the location of the Sun in the sky changes seasonally and the location of the Moon in the night sky changes seasonally IS due to the same mechanism -- the tilt of the Earth.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

This is due to the exact same reason that people in the summer see the Sun higher in the daytime sky than they do the winter Sun. Do you agree that the Sun is higher in the daytime sky in the Summer? If you do, then you should understand why the Moon is higher in the nighttime sky in the winter. The reasons are identical.

Why are there seasons?

www.universetoday.com...

The seasons are caused by the tilt of the planet’s axis with regard to the ecliptic plane.

Do all latitudes experience seasons?

The Earth seasons are not the same all over the planet. The amount of Sun that the equator receives stays about the same, which is why it does not have four seasons.

The seasons are also different at the North and South Poles. The poles experience two seasons – winter and summer.

What does the moon have to do with seasons?

wiki.answers.com...

Does the moon help earth have four seasons?

Not really. The seasons arise due to 1) the movement of the earth around the sun, and 2) the fact that the axis of rotation of the earth is not perpendicular to earth's plane of orbit about the sun.

www.discoverymagazine.com...

When we hear the word "seasons," we think of spring, summer, autumn and winter. We know that it is the tilt of the Earth's axis in relation to our orbit around the Sun that causes these four seasons, not the Moon.

Is the moon higher in the sky by season, for instance winter?

answers.yahoo.com...

Why is the moon higher in the sky during winter?

Well, the Moon isn't ALWAYS higher in the sky during the winter. When the Moon is new, or just a crescent, it pretty much follows the same low path through the sky that the Sun does (or seems to, rather). The Moon is only noticibly higher when it's up at night, which occurs as the Moon is approaching (or receding from) fullness.

What is full moon?

earthsky.org...

Full moon always comes about two weeks after new moon

en.wikipedia.org...

Full moon is a lunar phase that occurs when the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun.

The time interval between similar lunar phases—the synodic month—averages about 29.53 days. Therefore, in those lunar calendars in which each month begins on the new moon, the full moon falls on either the 14th or 15th of the lunar month.

Does the moon have other phases than full visible both day and night?

askville.amazon.com...

The Moon circles the earth at its own pace, not at the same pace that the earth rotates.

The reason you can see it during the day is because it just happens to be in the part of its orbit where it is both in the sky and reflecting enough light for you to see. You might have noticed the closer to the horizon, the more moon you see during the day.

en.wikipedia.org...

The highest altitude of the Moon in the sky varies: while it has nearly the same limit as the Sun, it alters with the lunar phase and with the season of the year, with the full Moon highest during winter.

The 18.6-year nodes cycle also has an influence: when the ascending node of the lunar orbit is in the vernal equinox, the lunar declination can go as far as 28° each month. This means the Moon can go overhead at latitudes up to 28° from the equator, instead of only 18°. The orientation of the Moon's crescent also depends on the latitude of the observation site: close to the equator, an observer can see a smile-shaped crescent Moon

declination can go as far as 28° each month. This means the Moon can go overhead at latitudes up to 28° from the equator, instead of only 18°.

The Moon is no higher in the sky in winter than in summer. Its orbit is basically the same all year around, ranging about 25° north and south of the celestial equator each month. However, it is most visible close to Full Moon, at which time it is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun. Thus, because the Sun is at its lowest declination in the winter, the Full Moon is at its highest in winter.

(continued next post)

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


(continuation of previous post)

The moon is not higher in the sky in winter.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Moon is no higher in the sky in winter than in summer. Its orbit is basically the same all year around, ranging about 25° north and south of the celestial equator each month. However, it is most visible close to Full Moon, at which time it is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun. Thus, because the Sun is at its lowest declination in the winter, the Full Moon is at its highest in winter.

www.umass.edu...

The Moon orbits, or revolves, around Earth and completes one revolution in 29.5 days. This is the same length of time that it takes the Moon to complete one cycle of phases.

(1) the full Moon is opposite the Sun in the sky (2) the new Moon is in the same direction as the Sun in the sky (and the side of the Moon which is illuminated by the Sun is the side we cannot see) (3) the crescent Moon is always near the Sun in the sky

Because of the rapid orbit of the Moon around us in a plane which is close to the plane in which we always see the Sun, THE MOON DOES IN A MONTH WHAT THE SUN DOES IN A YEAR, in terms of the changing rising and setting direction along the horizon.

That is, the moonrise and moonset directions change like a pendulum, swinging back and forth along the horizon and completing one full swing each month. The Sun's pendulum-like swing continues much slower, with the Sun completing one full swing each year.

This means that the Moon can at times be seen to rise and set more northerly and more southerly even than the solar extremes.

This means that the most northerly and the most southerly rising and setting of the Moon occur every month at the peak of the 18.6 year cycle.

The moon is monthly, it is not yearly. Seasons are yearly. The moon is not seasonal. Full moon is one phase of the moon. The moon is still there, orbiting, during the other phases. It may not be as in your face as full moon but it is nonetheless observable day and night except for new moon and the crescent when too close to the sun. This is how your myth got started. Disinformation perpetrated by NASA.

reply to post by ColAngus

This is ALL about Nibiru.

Colonel...without your posts, topics get too heavy to deal with so I'm not saying anything against them when I say this:

This is about the boat moon, an equatorial phenomena, being seen all around the world at diverse latitudes. So far, the only explanation I have heard for this is that the moon is seasonal and has a winter path. This explanation is so pathetically ridiculous it shouldn't even be considered but because NASA has seen fit to de-educate and mis-inform and dis-inform, it takes a lot of explaining if my goal is to achieve an understanding of
WHY this is pathetic.

reply to post by Illustronic

NASA provides data for people that want to use that for scientific calculations and experimentations. I doubt the really care if people run their lives on moon phases. How much sense does that make? I mean really.

NASA provides a child-like drawing on at least two of their websites in order to explain the boat moon. NASA claims that the moon is seasonal and has a winter and summer path and this, to NASA, explains the boat moon at locations far from the equator. That doesn't sound very scientific to me - it sounds like beetle dung.

So what can a person deduce about their calculations for public consumption based on this? They are going to be skewed in order to support the original 'what a tangled web we weave.' Say it ain't so.

Luxordelphi --

I agree with all of your excerpts above. Nothing in those excertpts disagrees with two things I have said:

1. The Moon can appear to be heavily tilted from the mid-latitudes, especially in the winter
and
2. The Moon takes a different path across the nighttime sky in the winter than the moon tajkes across the nighttime sky in the summer. Please notice I emphasized "nighttime".

Your very own excerpt backs me up on this

Originally posted by luxordelphi

en.wikipedia.org...

The Moon is no higher in the sky in winter than in summer. Its orbit is basically the same all year around, ranging about 25° north and south of the celestial equator each month....

That's good so far -- they are talking about the Moon's path in general. NOT the nighttime path..

but then, it goes on to say:

Originally posted by luxordelphi

...However, it is most visible close to Full Moon, at which time it is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun. Thus, because the Sun is at its lowest declination in the winter, the Full Moon is at its highest in winter.

(emphasis mine)

Bingo! That explains why the Moon can be higher in the Winter night sky than in the summer night sky.

The same thing happens with the 1st quarter Moon, because the 1st quarter moon is in the sky at night (sets at night) about the time same that the Sun is pretty far on the other side of the Earth. Although, admittedly, the Sun is NOT not as directly opposite the 1st quarter Moon at night as it is with the full moon at night.

That's why your excerpt makes sense -- The full Moon is HIGHEST in the winter. However, that does not mean that the winter 1st quarter moon is also not higher than the summer 1st quarter moon. It is higher.

The moon is monthly, it is not yearly. Seasons are yearly. The moon is not seasonal. Full moon is one phase of the moon. The moon is still there, orbiting, during the other phases. It may not be as in your face as full moon but it is nonetheless observable day and night except for new moon and the crescent when too close to the sun. This is how your myth got started. Disinformation perpetrated by NASA.

Yes -- the moon is monthly. That's why I said numerous times that the difference in the winter path of a particular phase of the the Moon will be different than the summer path of that same phase of the moon. If you notice, I'm comparing the moon in the winter to THE SAME PHASE of the Moon in the Summer. Those phases are monthly (well, about 29 days apart)...

...So, yeah. "The Moon is monthly", just like you said. However, that has nothing to do with how the Earth's tilt will affect the way a particular phase of the Moon is observed from a person on Earth in December when compared to June.

Answer me this:
If the Earth's tilt relative to the position of the Moon changes by 46° from June to December, then how can the June 1st Quarter Moon appear to be in the same part of the sky as the December 1st Quarter Moon? Doesn't it seem logical that a 46° shift in the position of the person looking at the moon ( a shift from June compared to December) would make a difference in where that Moon appears?


Forget the 18.6 year cycle. Sure -- that's a factor, by a minor one that is just serving to confuse the issue. Also, forget that the Moon has a monthly revolution around the Earth, while the Earth has a yearly revolution around the Sun. That is not relevant at all.

The only factor of real importance is the tilt of the Earth. As I asked in the question above, If the part of the Earth on which a person is standing is tilted differently relative to the Moon in June than that the way that that same place is tilted in December, then how can a person view the Moon the same way?

I mean, if the height of the Sun in the daytime sky is affected by the Earth's tilt, then why wouldn't the height a specific Moon phase in the nighttime sky also be affected? They are both just spheres out in space.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
Colonel...without your posts, topics get too heavy to deal with so I'm not saying anything against them when I say this:

Pretty sure there's a compliment in there somewhere.

Let me go look again...

reply to post by ProudBird


Your post, as usual, is an epic fail at connecting with reality. I think I know what your problem is though...you don't really read any threads; you just kind of jump into them and start floundering around.

Before your floundering reaches titanic proportions, let me throw you a life preserver which should help at least until the chilly waters of reality touch you:

You are describing the Muslim tradition of Ramadan. This is what happens when people get in over their heads, into subjects that they are deeply lacking in experience and understanding.

ccm-inc.org...

When Islam arrived in Europe and America, the question ‘when to begin a lunar month’ was not left behind.

When the population was small and disconnected the problem was solved by calling “home” and coordinating the dates with the “country” that one came from or to show solidarity with the dates that were observed by the Saudi Government.

This situation lasted for a while, until it was known that the dates announced by the Saudi Government were based on calculation rather than actual sighting.

The result of this realization was that two beginnings for a lunar month became common.

Following a lunar calendar based on observation means that the first light of the crescent needs to be sighted every month. Not just Ramadhaan. This is so pathetically obvious because how would you know if you were not counting sightings, when the month of Ramadhaan is?

Just ignore all the science, and the tons of photographs from decades ago

There hasn't been any evidence from decades ago much less tons. I haven't seen any photographs from decades ago of the boat moon at northern mid-latitudes. Sure would like to see some throughout an entire year like they are appearing now with links to verify. So I'll wait patiently for you to supply those.

....unfortunately, I have a suspicion as to from where these delusions are arising.....a place called "GLP"....

Who knew? ATS is the only internet forum I frequent. Sounds like 'GLP' is your haunt but that's really not the point, is it?

The dumbed down society that you describe was caused by the same kind of mis-information and blatant dis-information that abounds today...the wierd NASA diagram. I can just see future archeological digs digging this one up and saying 'oh my' and then saying 'well the earth could have been so clouded over at that time that the people were never able to see the moon in the day and that's why they drew this wierd thing. But you're not going to understand what I just said because you don't read threads, you just make pit-stops.

reply to post by luxordelphi


Your skill at ad hominem distractions knows no bounds.

It was you, after all, who raised the practice of the Islam faith being tied to the Lunar cycles....so, since I mentioned it, I see you did some quick Googling? I know only tangentially about Islam -- and learned or Rmadan for the first time only because I happened to be visiting a Muslim country (Egypt) when it started.....gave me a bit of trepidation, not knowing the culture, and how those "faithful" would react.....

Anyways, not really interested in studying more, and about their difficulties with adapting as they move around the planet. I don't have much patience for any organized "religion", as they are all about the same.....relying on myths and fantasy beliefs. With pointless "rituals" that lack any scientific basis in the modern era.

I haven't seen any photographs from decades ago of the boat moon at northern mid-latitudes.

I find that very difficult to understand.....and, hard to believe. These have been provided in at least two similar threads about something "wrong"with the Moon over the last few months. Maybe someone either forgot, or she overlooked it when first posted, because it clearly showed she was wrong.

Perhaps a review of those threads would be in order......

reply to post by Dashdragon

No one disputes the 18.6 year cycle of the moon. This is about how the phase orientation of the moon with respect to the horizon changes throughout the year to an observer on Earth.

There are no yearly 'phase orientation of the moon with respect to the horizon changes.' Such a thing does not exist. 'Phase orientation' to the horizon is not seasonal.

So, you're saying that the Earth's orientation in regards to its night side has absolutely no effect on what is visible on the night side of the planet. I think many ancient and modern stargazers would disagree.

What is an 'Earth's orientation in regards to its night side'?

That is simply a bold-faced lie and you know it. Many people have shown that it is very clearly at an angle and have even reproduced it in a side-by-side comparison using Stellarium.

This sentence is ill-considered. No one has shown anything but constructs. Many pictures have been posted showing perfect boats from diverse northern latitudes. Stellarium constructs are not an expanation for boats galore in places far from the equator.

Wait, what? 30.41 and 28.07 is a difference of 11 days? Funny, but when I subtract 28.07 from 30.41 I clearly get 2.34. You yourself even mentioned that the lunar orbit completes 12-13 times in a given year. I was speaking to how you tried to call me a liar and showing you that I had been quoting the exact same orbital period you were trying to argue.

This sentence is ill-considered. I never called you a liar. I said that I'd stay away from the math if I were you.
www.ehow.com...

A solar year is calculated based on the movements of the sun, whereas a lunar year is based on the movements of the moon. Compared to a lunar calendar, a solar calendar is widely used across the globe. The difference in the period between a solar year and a lunar year is called an epact. One epact is 11 days.

So what's your agenda Lux? Col clearly has you both pegged and most everyone else is coming to that same conclusion if they haven't already. You're just using trolling tactics (IE - twisting or ignoring anything you can to keep posting) to try and keep an argument going that you and Cherub both lost months ago. And where twisting or ignoring doesn't suffice, you flat out lie.

I'm kind of surprised that ATS allows you to say this. I'll just say that when someone gets backed into a corner they usually get nasty because in 'fight or flight,' a corner leaves out the 2nd option. Still...there's no corner - leave the thread if you can't behave.

You seem to be educating yourself, which is a good thing, but at the same time you are somehow magically twisting correct scientific and observation data (as well as member responses) to support this crazy idea.

It's not magic. I'll let you know when I'm using magic.

reply to post by luxordelphi


So you're lying and even misquoting wikipedia (do a search for the phrase 'The moon is no higher' on the wiki link you provided and that phrase is no where on the page) but on top of that, you're purposely trying to antagonize members, yet I'm the one 'backed in the corner'...sure pal.

Going with the wiki lie - I also checked the last time that page was edited, which was on the 23rd. I even looked through the revision and it had nothing to do with the text you quoted so it's not that it got ninja'd out from under you or anything.

Here is what wiki actually says:

The highest altitude of the Moon in the sky varies: while it has nearly the same limit as the Sun, it alters with the lunar phase and with the season of the year, with the full Moon highest during winter. The 18.6-year nodes cycle also has an influence: when the ascending node of the lunar orbit is in the vernal equinox, the lunar declination can go as far as 28° each month. This means the Moon can go overhead at latitudes up to 28° from the equator, instead of only 18°. The orientation of the Moon's crescent also depends on the latitude of the observation site: close to the equator, an observer can see a smile-shaped crescent Moon.

You can keep up with the math insults...I mean, you're the one using information that is designed to explain what we're trying to tell you as if it somehow supports your view instead. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of my math other than your attempts to misquote it to appear so.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

So, you're saying that the Earth's orientation in regards to its night side has absolutely no effect on what is visible on the night side of the planet. I think many ancient and modern stargazers would disagree.

What is an 'Earth's orientation in regards to its night side'?

The nighttime side of the Earth in the Winter is tilted (in relation to the Sun and Moon) 46° farther south than it is in the Summer (and obviously the converse is true -- the daytime side of the Earth is tilted 46° farther north in the Winter than it is in the Summer).

This fact is the key to the whole reason that a given phase of the Moon on the nighttime side of the Earth (and, conversely, the Sun on the dayside) can look to be in different locations in the sky in the Winter as opposed to the summer.

If you don't understand this basic fact (that the Earth's tilt relative to the Sun and Moon varies), then I can see why you don't think that a given phase of the Moon will look to be higher or lower in the nighttime sky depending on whether it's winter or summer.

[by the way, the phrases "a given phase of the Moon" and "nighttime sky" are very important here. You seem also to be missing that point and the importance of those words, because your responses keep ignoring them].


Answer me this:
The Sun is higher in the daytime sky for people in the mid to high latitudes in the Summer than it is in the winter. Why is this?

reply to post by nataylor

The moon's path is dependent on the seasons as well. If the peak of the moon's 18.6 year cycle, in which the moon is about 5° above the ecliptic, happens during the summer solstice, the moon's nighttime position will be lower in the sky than if the peak of the 18.6 year cycle happens during the winter solstice.

So an instant in time in an 18.6 year cycle shows a dependance on seasons?

Since the angle between the axes of the ecliptic and the Earth's tilt is determined solely by the seasonal position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun, it's easy to say the apparent path of the sun through the sky is seasonal.

So because the sun appears to be seasonal, the moon should appear to be as well?

Only looking at where the moon is in the 18.6 year cycle will not tell you the position of the apparent path of the moon in the sky. You must also know where the Earth is in its one year orbit around the sun to determine the moon's apparent path in the sky.

The moon has a monthly path as well as an 18.6 year cycle. Why is this not relevant to its' path in the sky? According to this site all you need is a compass - not seasons.

www.ehow.com...

Astronomers track the altitude and azimuth of the Moon and other celestial objects in the sky to predict their future position.

And since the maximum change in angle between the Earth's axis and the axis of the ecliptic, at about 47°, is much larger than that the maximum change in the angle between the axis of moon's orbit and the axis of the ecliptic, at about 10°, I would argue that it can be said the moon's path is generally seasonal.

I don't get where you get 10 degrees. If it's 47 degrees, it should be 57 degrees. If it's 23.5 degrees, it should be 28.5 degrees. And how 10 degrees show that the 'moon's path is generally seasonal' is another mystery. And what 'generally seasonal' means is also mysterious. There is some doubt? So we can't be 100%?

In other words, if you only knew where the Earth was in its orbit around the sun (and thus know the season), your guess at the moon's highest place in the nighttime sky will be more accurate than if you only knew where the moon was in its 18.6 year cycle. Thus, the apparent position of the moon's path through the sky is more determined by the season than by where the moon is in its 18.6 year cycle.

So what about the monthly path? What about the zodiac? What about the phases? Is this like if someone is blind and only knows this one thing and goes outside to test the weather and it's cold so they know that full moon will be high in the sky? So the moon is seasonal?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

The equinoxes and solstices of the Earth are caused by the tilt of the earth, and it is this tilt of the earth that causes changes in the way the entire sky (including the Sun, stars, and Moon) is perceived when viewed by people on Earth.

The tilt of the earth creates a specific set of observing parameters - yes.

Do you agree that the Sun is in a different location as seen from a point on Earth in the Summer as opposed to winter?

Yes.

...The same mechanism is in effect for both sides of the Earth.

What mechanism? Full moon happens when the sun and moon are on opposite sides of the earth. A waxing crescent happens when the moon is near the sun. This is not seasonal. It happens every month.

earthsky.org...

But a waxing crescent moon is far enough away from that Earth-sun line to be visible near the sun’s glare – that is, in the west after sunset. This moon phase is seen one day to several days after new moon. On these days, the moon rises one hour to several hours behind the sun and follows the sun across the sky during the day. When the sun sets, and the sky darkens, the moon pops into view in the western sky.

I've been a skywatcher for decades, and I've understood for decades why the Moon can look tilted, even before someone posted that NASA image.

I, too, have been a skywatcher for some time (no need to date ourselves with decades) and particularly a watcher of the moon because for several years I was engaged in a rather intensive study which heavily involved the moon. I remember the first time I was in Helsinki, the furthest north I'd ever been at the time, in the summer, and how startling the daylight hours were. I had read all of this but the experience was real. That's how it was the first time I saw the boat moon. It was frustrating to go on the internet and find wierd explanations but mostly side-steps. By side-steps I mean that instead of talking about the boat moon, the site would deliberately misinterpret the question and go on to talk about earthshine - a completely different phenomenon. It happened to
me on ATS like this. As though that explained something. So...not taking away from your observations, I'm going to give more credence to mine.

First of all, for definition purposes, let's not call it a boat moon, because the amount of tilt that qualifies as a "Boat Moon" seems to be a subjective thing -- different people will call different amounts of tilt a "Boat Moon". So, for the sake of this post, let's call a perfectly horizontal Moon as one that is tilted 90° and a perfectly vertical Moon one that is tilted 0°.

This is an excellent point although not for the reasons you bring it up. In another thread there was a poster who knew exactly what I was talking about and he said that all that remained would be to determine how far outside that extreme variance of the sun coinciding with the near extreme variance of the moon, the boat moon would be visible. I read observations. They mean more to me than any accepted science. But this information is somehow not available. I have found 1950's and 1960's observational accounts of life within the arctic circles which have helped me to determine current dis-information in use regarding sunrise/sunset and moon visibility there but not about this.

Can we agree that during the equinox, the equator on the nighttime side of the planet will be most directly under the Moon. and therefore at that time (during the equinox) is the only time when the equator sees the the 90° tilted Moon (what some would call the 100% horizontal Boat Moon)?

The boat moon is a question of latitude. It happens at the equator. Hypothetical positionings without stating that they have deviated from long-held norms are not going to cut it.

Your post(s) are long for me to continue to quote them so I'll just respond.

If the sun is at 28.5 Tropic of Cancer, the moon must be there too, theoretically, for a boat moon although I have never read anything about just the boat moon that says anything other than it is seen at the equator. In fact, I have read sites that say if you are seeing this moon, where on earth are you? And the answer is: on the equator.

As far as 1 degree for 1 degree of tilt...you're going to have to show some reference for tht. I don't have one. And it doesn't agree with my observations.

I have personally seen a perfect boat from 3 different mid-latitude locations. Others have seen perfect boats much further north than I have.

The construct of the moon in Canada is a construct.

(see next post)

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


(continuation of previous post)

The moon where I am is a perfect and I mean perfect boat and looks nothing like your construct and at this juncture, with your constructs, I have to say it doesn't look good for you. I feel like bait and switch.

reply to post by luxordelphi


The view of the moon's orbit is seasonal because, generally, when one talks about going out and looking up at the moon, they're going to do it at night and the part of the Earth facing away from the sun is most definitely seasonal for the same reason that the part facing it is.

The seasons are mostly caused by the Earth's tilt. There are other factors (orbital distance and amount of landmass on the northern hemisphere that causes the north to experience more variant seasons than the southern), but the Earth's tilt is the most important. The Earth's tilt is mostly fixed which causes the northern hemisphere to be tilted towards the sun during summer and away during winter.

So as we've been saying, during the winter, the moon as viewed at night on Earth is going to follow the same general path through the sky as the sun does in summer, because when it is viewable at night during the winter, it's on the side that the Earth is tilted towards. It's not that the moon's orbit changed, we are just looking at a different part of its orbit.

A full moon in winter is not in the same position in the moon's orbit as a full moon in summer. If you looked at the moon in the same position of the moon's orbit that causes it to be a full moon in winter during the summer, you wouldn't even be able to see it because it would be on the day side of the planet. Is that the part that is not being grasped here?

I'm sure we can create a quick diagram if you need, but as you yourself have said, the moon's orbital position does not change just because the seasons do which would mean you would be looking at the other side of the moon's orbit at night in winter than in summer...the part typically obscured during the day for the opposite season.

reply to post by luxordelphi


OK, let's see if we can do this visually.

Here is a graph showing the maximum elevation of the full moon (as viewed from Las Vegas) for the last year (click on the images to view bigger versions):

Note that it follows a seasonal pattern. The full moon is lower in the summer and higher in the winter.

Here is a graph showing the same thing, but covering from 1993-2011:

Here you can see the 18.6 year cycle imposed on the yearly cycle. At the peak of the 18.6 year cycle, around 2006, the full moon's maximum elevation is higher than at the low of the 18.6 cycle around 1997.

It's clear the seasonal variation that has the biggest effect on the maximum elevation of the full moon. The yearly swing from a low in the summer to a high in the winter is much larger than the 18.6 year swing through maximum and minimum.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

(continuation of previous post)

The moon where I am is a perfect and I mean perfect boat and looks nothing like your construct and at this juncture, with your constructs, I have to say it doesn't look good for you. I feel like bait and switch.

Take a picture, and include some buildings in the foreground for a "level" reference.

A tilt of a few degrees from horizontal for the "Young Moon" (the phase we are in right now) would be very hard to notice because of the thinness of the crescent.

Not only that, but that particular phase of the Moon by definition is very, very close to the sun (relatively speaking, as viewed in the sky from earth). Therefore, when the Moon is low on the horizon, the lit part of the Moon is going to be facing the recently-setting sun -- i.e., it will be on the horizon an hour or less after the Sun set, and is just about on the same path as the setting wither Sun.

So, of course the Young Moon will seem to be very close to horizontal. The Young Moon is the most horizontal--looking phase due to its position in the Earth's sky relative to the sun.

EDIT TO ADD:
Think about the logic of it. For the Young Moon (which is the thinnest sliver of a Moon) to be vertical and Moonset, the Sun and Moon would need to be next to each other on the horizon as they are both setting.

Well, by definition, that is not possible because the Young Moon is always right behind the Sun in the winter sky, and moving basically along the same path as the Sun (maybe with a few degree difference). It would never be "next to" the sun in the winter when they both are setting.