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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
EDIT TO ADD:
After I read what you said, I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I noticed you said this:

The APPEARANCE (whether it shows up or not) of the moon in certain latitudes is dependant on the seasons but not by virtue of the moon's path.

Perhaps there is some confusion about what I mean when I say the "Moon's path". I'm talking about the path the Moon takes across the Earth's sky as it appears to an observer on the Earth. Perhaps you think I am talking about the orbit of the Moon in space? Well, I'm not. I'm talking about what the Moon's path in the Earth's sky looks like from Earth. THAT'S what changes seasonally.

edit on 2/22/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

I too was wondering if this was the source for the misunderstanding between the two viewpoints, but I'm afraid that her response will likely still tow her "party line."

You have to understand that this mindset will not concede. Will not accept that they could be wrong. They believe something in space (possibly Planet X) is causing the moon to wig out and nothing anyone says will convince them otherwise.

It's a very convenient position because there is no end-date or expiration to their belief. If we come back in a decade, revisit this topic and say "See, no incoming celestial body" they will merely say "It's not here yet." All because they cannot accept that the seeing a boat moon during winter is normal.

reply to post by luxordelphi

The moon is not seasonal - .....

:shk:

Simply amazing....at least THREE people have gone out of their way to explain how your thinking is so incorrect.....and, still?

Here.....THIS is where you should go, and have someone take you by the hand, and explain it in person....(and you may also, then, tell them all bout your "theories" and interpretation of the science of astronomy and orbital dynamics):

Planetarium and Observatory

Planetarium and Observatory
3200 E. Cheyenne Ave. Ste. 1A
North Las Vegas, NV 89030
(702) 651-4SKY

......Whether you're looking for an educational experience or just something unique to see in Vegas, the Planetarium and Observatory will suit your needs.

reply to post by Dashdragon


(continuation of previous reply)

And that's such a shame because one of the wonderful things about naked-eye astronomy is that it's not messy like so many of the processes on Earth; things that move in the sky have a rhythmic, cyclic, deterministic motion. A motion that allows budding scientists to go from observations into predictions.

This post is already too long and I'm pressed so: to be continued and I'll respond to the rest of your post.

reply to post by ColAngus


Hello all. I will make this quick. everything you said in your post I am replying to, is exactly what I could and will say back to you. I am amazed that for a subject you feel so right about that you continue to argue the point. It's almost like you are "Having To" continue in the subject. Why do you waste your time if thats how you feel?

Originally posted by luxordelphi

The moon is not seasonal - it is lunar monthly and 18.6 years.

www.skyscript.co.uk...

Yes. As I said before, I understand the 18.6 year cycle. I agree that there is an 18.6 year cycle in which the Moon's 5° orbital inclination will vary.

HOWEVER, that's not the path of the Moon I am talking about. That 18.6 year cyclical variance is not relevant in general to what I am saying (it is a factor, but a minor factor, and thus able to be ignored when talking in broad generalities). As I have explained before, I am talking about the path that the Moon appears to make to people observing it from the earth as it moves across the sky from the time it rises to the time it sets -- and more specifically when the Moon is on the night side of the Earth.

I've shown this graphic before, but you never seem to address it directly. Please address this graphic directly. It shows exactly why any specific given phase of the moon will appear higher in the night sky in the winter than that same phase would in the summer from a location in the mid-latitudes. If you have some particular reason for disagreeing with this graphic, please explain your disagreement



As this shows, a person at 35° North latitude will see the Moon higher in the night sky in the winter than in the summer because the the Northern Hemisphere is tilted "downward" (or southward) on the night side of the planet in the winter. Therefore 35° North latitude is more directly under the Moon (and, thus, the Moon will look more overhead).

Conversely, that same person at that same at 35° North latitude location will see the Moon lower (more toward the South) in the night sky in the summer than in the winter. This is because the the Northern Hemisphere is tilted "upward" (or northward) on the night side of the planet in the summer. Therefore 35° North latitude is more LESS under the Moon (and, thus, the Moon will look be seen lower in the sky, and more towards the southern part of the sky.).


This is due to the exact same reason that people in the summer see the Sun higher in the daytime sky than they do the winter Sun. Do you agree that the Sun is higher in the daytime sky in the Summer? If you do, then you should understand why the Moon is higher in the nighttime sky in the winter. The reasons are identical.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by ColAngus

 

Hello all. I will make this quick. everything you said in your post I am replying to, is exactly what I could and will say back to you. I am amazed that for a subject you feel so right about that you continue to argue the point. It's almost like you are "Having To" continue in the subject. Why do you waste your time if thats how you feel?

Because it bothers me to think that some folks here are perpetuating this ignorance intentionally.

Because I like winning arguments and it chaps me off when stubborn losers won't concede.

Because I deny ignorance (lol).

Because I like arguing.

Pick one.

reply to post by Dashdragon

How many times do people need to draw you little diagrams of the Earth, moon, and sun for you to understand how this all works?

For your parts (plural) (as in you all) you seem to have focused on the one wierd child-like diagram credited to the Goddard Space Flight Center which keeps turning up like some sort of mantra. The rest of what you said in that paragraph - huh? And that's exactly what it is (the drawing) - some sort of wierd little diagram - so we agree on something!

It's not just the matter of the moon's orbit around us that determines these things...but what part of the universe is on the opposite side of the Earth from the sun

If you're talking about the sector of space that the solar system is in now - that's proof for the other side.

Since this changes on a yearly cycle that should be fairly simple to see that the moon's position and our perspective of it at night has a lot to do with where the sun is in relation to the Earth, which changes on a yearly cycle.

The moon orbits the earth every 29.5 or so days. The earth orbits the sun in 1 year. How is this confusing?

The Earth is tilted towards a roughly fixed point in space (which is regulated largely by the moon's orbit around the Earth..which is further proof that all is well). This point has the Earth tilted at roughly 23 degrees in relation to its orbit around the sun.

I don't know what this means. Orbits and rotations are determined including the effects that everything in space has on everything else. An orbit is observed to vary from what was previously observed and a cause is sought for the variance. That's the case here with boat moons galore in mixed and diverse latitudes.

The link to the picture you have given does not show the moon. How is this relevant to a discusion of the boat moon appearing all over the world?

(which means it does not orbit around the Earth's equator...to reiterate that for the billionth time)

The moon orbits on the ecliptic with a 5 degree variance. I didn't know we were in disagreement on this. This is pretty basic and should have been settled already. Unless you're confusing 'equatorial moon' with the moons' path. Equatorial moon is a term that describes the boat moon as seen on the equator. The equator is at 0 degrees on earth and runs around the center of it halfway between both poles. The ecliptic is the sun's path in the sky and the moon follows this path with a 5 degree variance based on an 18.6 year cycle. Neither the sun nor the moon orbit the equator. The ecliptic crosses the equator in two places.

There is more than enough proof to show that these things have been like this for a long time

Boat moon at selected points around the world is new. I'm going to say 2003 but it might be a bit earlier. The boat moon is also found in various archeological sites from ancient times.

On top of everything there's also the simple fact that if the moon's orbit around the Earth did suddenly just go crazy, in the period that Cherub has been making these troll threads that you have been helping escalate, there would be no denying the tidal waves and earthquakes that would have already long since devastated large parts of the globe.

If you're going to ignore current events and try to use that ignorance to support your statements - what can I do? As far as talking about how near or far something needs to be to noticeably perturb the moon - there have been other threads about that and it's not topical here. This is about observation.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

For example, there was a full moon on February 7 in 1993 and in 2012, There will also be a full moon on February 7, 2031 -- 19 year intervals.)

That's interesting but I don't know if this would always hold true. The solar calendar that we use is not perfect and a lunar calendar is not perfect either unless it is based solely on observation. Our calendar based on the year and the sun begins arbitrarily and is in large part a mish-mash to try and make things come out right.

What I meant about the 18.6 year cycle is that the moons' path varies to a maximum and minimum extent which is tracked in this cycle. Making a date on our calendar come out the same with the exact moon phase years hence is beyond what I want to verify right now. So I don't know on that.

That 18.6 year cycle may affect the exact path of the nighttime moon, but that doesn't mean the path still does not change seasonally.

The moon has a monthly path and an 18.6 year path which corresponds to the sun's yearly path if you consider variance to extremes. The solstices and equinoxes are the suns' seasonal displays and they mean, in hard terms, how close or far the sun is from the equator and where the sun crosses the equator and where it is furthest. The moons' seasonal displays, if you want to call them that, follow an 18.6 year cycle.

Due to the tilt of the Earth, any particular phase of the moon occurring within a couple of weeks of the winter solstice will take a different path across the nighttime sky than that same phase of the moon occurring within a couple of weeks of the summer solstice.

The moons' path in the sky is monthly. It orbits the earth every month. Its' path varies over 18.6 years being, in that time, closest and furthest from the ecliptic and spending the in-between extreme times either lessening or growing.

Different seasons; different paths across the Earth's sky for the Moon.

The horizon does not determine seasons if that is what you are saying.

Perhaps there is some confusion about what I mean when I say the "Moon's path". I'm talking about the path the Moon takes across the Earth's sky as it appears to an observer on the Earth. Perhaps you think I am talking about the orbit of the Moon in space? Well, I'm not. I'm talking about what the Moon's path in the Earth's sky looks like from Earth. THAT'S what changes seasonally.

You are, IMO, not confused. Neither am I. That leaves NASA and their Goddard Space Flight child-like wierd diagram showing a summer and winter path for the moon. Ask yourself how is this diagram relevant to the equator or to very high northern and southern latitudes? And yet the moons' path is the same for them as for us. The moon does not have a yearly cycle. It orbits once a month. That is its' year. Its' path deviates reaching maximum and minimum over 18.6 years. The sun does the same thing - only it does it in one year deviating from the equator.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

There is more than enough proof to show that these things have been like this for a long time

Boat moon at selected points around the world is new. I'm going to say 2003 but it might be a bit earlier. The boat moon is also found in various archeological sites from ancient times.

On top of everything there's also the simple fact that if the moon's orbit around the Earth did suddenly just go crazy, in the period that Cherub has been making these troll threads that you have been helping escalate, there would be no denying the tidal waves and earthquakes that would have already long since devastated large parts of the globe.

If you're going to ignore current events and try to use that ignorance to support your statements - what can I do? As far as talking about how near or far something needs to be to noticeably perturb the moon - there have been other threads about that and it's not topical here. This is about observation.

Nibiru, people.

This is ALL about Nibiru.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Soylent: your diagram is concise and easy to understand as well as descriptive. There are a few points to make here.

1. The boat moon is being seen in places where it has not been seen before unless you count ancient archeological digs where it is sometimes depicted on petroglyphs etc.
2. The NASA/Cornell explanation for this boat moon at latitudes far from the equator based on THEIR diagram was that the moon is seasonal and has a winter and summer path.

The moon and the sun have always appeared to travel in our skies along the ecliptic which is the 12 (or now 13 since recent times) signs of the zodiac. The ecliptic crosses our equator at two points and between those two points deviates from the equator both north and south respectively to a maximum of 23.5 degrees for the sun. For an observer, seasonally, the ecliptic varies being sometimes closer to the horizon and sometimes further.

The parameters for the sun and the moon within the observational limits of certain latitudes have been established since ancient times. Stonehenge is one example of this.

To tell people, as NASA has done, that the reason for a boat moon is because the moon is seasonal is clearly folly because the moon is not seasonal, it is monthly. To tell people that a boat moon is seasonal to winter is folly because its' not true. The boat moon is an equatorial phenom and it is not seasonal there. The boat moon is a startling sight for someone in the mid-latitudes who has never seen it before. The first boat moon I ever saw was at more northern latitudes than Las Vegas and it was in the summer.

reply to post by nataylor

The moon's path is, of course, generally seasonal.

The moons' path is monthly and this path visits its' extremes in a cycle lasting 18.6 years. It is within that
cycle that the moon displays its' equivalent of the equinoxes and solstices.

reply to post by ProudBird

Simply amazing....at least THREE people have gone out of their way to explain how your thinking is so incorrect.....and, still?

This is what amazes me:

In the Islamic culture which has been around for some 1500 years at least, the month starts when the first faint waxing crescent after new moon is spotted. Everyone participates in this and is encouraged to participate and it goes on every month. In this culture there are varied and almost infinite and poetic ways to describe twilight and other cosmic occurrences because these people are looking up and have been continually and regularly for 1500 years.

And yet, NASA, a year ago decided that their main goal should be Muslim outreach.

NASA, the same outfit that put out the wierd diagram of the moons' winter path in order to 'explain' to us why a boat moon is happening at odd latitudes.

Do you suppose they want to 'explain' similar things to these people because how much is 1500 years of observation really worth. What does it really mean.

That's what amazes me.

The ignorance has passed the frustrating phase, and has now entered the LOL phase.

All part of its winter path, of course.

reply to post by luxordelphi


NASA provides data for people that want to use that for scientific calculations and experimentations. I doubt the really care if people run their lives on moon phases. How much sense does that make? I mean really.

reply to post by luxordelphi


You are describing the Muslim tradition of Ramadan.

This is what happens when people get in over their heads, into subjects that they are deeply lacking in experience and understanding.

Just ignore all the science, and the tons of photographs from decades ago (all documented) in favor of some pseudo-scientific clap-trap that is now trying to claim that NASA [of all things!!] have fooled the entire world, ALL of the astronomers around the planet, because NASA has somehow "altered" every scientific astronomical study every done, to "cover up" ....."something" that isn't even physically possible in the first place? (A grossly incorrect Lunar orbit, as is alleged in this thread OP).

Sorry, but as mentioned before....this is beyond ignorance at this point. NASA is NOT the only space agency on this planet. Oh, and gee.....I wonder if there are any ancient civilizations that also were keen celestial observers?? Like...., maybe the Chinese?


I mean, for Pete's sake, even you, yourself mentioned ancient petroglyphs!! I need a forehead slap, at this juncture.......

....unfortunately, I have a suspicion as to from where these delusions are arising.....a place called "GLP"....it s infused with such nonsense, even a recent topic about "Nibiru" and the "3,600 cycle". The lack of knowledge about science is profoundly disturbing. I may begin to fear for the future of Humanity, and progress, at this rate. (Or at least, of the state of the USA ....anyone ever seen the movie "Idiocracy")?

When I saw it 6 years ago, I scoffed....certain that the future it depicted was just for comedic effect.....now, not so sure........brief synopsis:

Private Joe Bauers, the definition of "average American", is selected by the Pentagon to be the guinea pig for a top-secret hibernation program. Forgotten, he awakes 500 years in the future. He discovers a society so incredibly dumbed-down that he's easily the most intelligent person alive.

Originally posted by ProudBird
Sorry, but as mentioned before....this is beyond ignorance at this point. NASA is NOT the only space agency on this planet. Oh, and gee.....I wonder if there are any ancient civilizations that also were keen celestial observers?? Like...., maybe the Chinese?

Everyone's in on the secret. Well, except for the Russians who let the cat out of the bag on some equivalent "A Current Affair" broadcast that is only to be found on Youtube.

Otherwise, all observatories, amateur astronomers, and basically everyone other a husband and wife in Las Vegas has been paid off with promised tickets to the doomsday ark.

Ri-goddamn-diculous.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Dashdragon

 

The only reason why my previous post was as long as it was, was to purposely try and overly explain the seasonal changes to the position of the moon in the NIGHT sky.

The moon is not seasonal - it is lunar monthly and 18.6 years.

No one disputes the 18.6 year cycle of the moon. This is about how the phase orientation of the moon with respect to the horizon changes throughout the year to an observer on Earth. Our angle of viewing it changes on a yearly cycle.

The lunar year, that is twelve lunations, takes 354 days to complete, whilst the solar year over-runs by about a further 11 days to give 365 days.

Trying to fit lunations into a solar year and make the moon seasonal based on the seasons of a solar year doesn't make any sense because the moon has its' own cycles as we have discussed.

So, you're saying that the Earth's orientation in regards to its night side has absolutely no effect on what is visible on the night side of the planet. I think many ancient and modern stargazers would disagree.

And seriously...with all the touting of Cherub's pictures in Las Vegas of the boat moon as if they were 'perfect' boats, when it's off by about 15 degrees

It's not off by 15 degrees but is and continues to be a perfect boat month after month. The photos in this thread and in the other thread - The moon is upside down tonight in Las Vegas - show perfect boats from varied latitudes, none of them on the equator nor even close to it.

That is simply a bold-faced lie and you know it. Many people have shown that it is very clearly at an angle and have even reproduced it in a side-by-side comparison using Stellarium. I think the first one he posted was calculated to be at a 17 degree angle, which was perfect for what he was supposed to see given the date it was taken.

Let's do some simple math for you...365 (we'll leave out the .24 on there, so don't even think about jumping on that) divided by 12 is 30.41, and 365 divided by 13 is 28.07. Hmmm that looks pretty darn close

I'd stay away from the math if I were you. It's a difference of 11 days. There is no comparison between a lunar cycle and a solar cycle except in 3 body computations. The moon is not seasonal in the sense that the sun is.

Wait, what? 30.41 and 28.07 is a difference of 11 days? Funny, but when I subtract 28.07 from 30.41 I clearly get 2.34. You yourself even mentioned that the lunar orbit completes 12-13 times in a given year. I was speaking to how you tried to call me a liar and showing you that I had been quoting the exact same orbital period you were trying to argue.

Of course, you're talking about how 12 lunar orbits complete 11 days shy of a full year, which has absolutely nothing to do with invalidating the numbers I was presenting to you and is a completely different calculation than the one I was clearly presenting. I had merely shown that the generalization of saying 12-13 lunar orbits per year averages pretty darn close to the correct lunar orbit (which the average of the numbers I posted is 29.24 - pretty darn close to 29.5 for a just a generalization)

So what's your agenda Lux? Col clearly has you both pegged and most everyone else is coming to that same conclusion if they haven't already. You're just using trolling tactics (IE - twisting or ignoring anything you can to keep posting) to try and keep an argument going that you and Cherub both lost months ago. And where twisting or ignoring doesn't suffice, you flat out lie.

You seem to be educating yourself, which is a good thing, but at the same time you are somehow magically twisting correct scientific and observation data (as well as member responses) to support this crazy idea. You can't very well use data that shows how you're wrong and somehow say it shows you're right. It's mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by nataylor

 

The moon's path is, of course, generally seasonal.

The moons' path is monthly and this path visits its' extremes in a cycle lasting 18.6 years. It is within that
cycle that the moon displays its' equivalent of the equinoxes and solstices.

The Moon's equinoxes and solstices are not important to this conversation; please try to ignore the Moon's own versions of equinoxes and solstices for now. It is the equinoxes and solstices of the EARTH that are more important to this conversation.

The equinoxes and solstices of the Earth are caused by the tilt of the earth, and it is this tilt of the earth that causes changes in the way the entire sky (including the Sun, stars, and Moon) is perceived when viewed by people on Earth.

For example, at the winter solstice, the nighttime side of the Northern hemisphere is tilted 46° more southward than on the day of the summer solstice. You can bet that this 46° difference in the apparent tilt will make a difference as to how we perceive all objects in space, such as the stars and the moon, from a given point on Earth...

...that would mean the locations of stars, planets, and the Moon would appear to shift by 46° on the winter solstice as compared to the summer solstice. The same effect happens on the "daytime" side of the earth with the Sun (i.e, the location of the Sun in the sky is 46° different on the first day of winter compared to the first day of summer, and is like this for the exact same reason as on the night side, but the effect is 46° in the opposite direction on the opposite (day and night) sides of the Earth.

Do you agree that the Sun is in a different location as seen from a point on Earth in the Summer as opposed to winter? If you agree with this (and please tell me whether you agree or not), then you should agree that the stars, other planets, nebulae, the Moon, and everything other space object we see in the nightime sky will appear to be in different locations in the winter as opposed to summer, when viewed from a specific point on Earth...

...The same mechanism is in effect for both sides of the Earth.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by nataylor

 

The moon's path is, of course, generally seasonal.

The moons' path is monthly and this path visits its' extremes in a cycle lasting 18.6 years. It is within that
cycle that the moon displays its' equivalent of the equinoxes and solstices.

The moon's path is dependent on the seasons as well. If the peak of the moon's 18.6 year cycle, in which the moon is about 5° above the ecliptic, happens during the summer solstice, the moon's nighttime position will be lower in the sky than if the peak of the 18.6 year cycle happens during the winter solstice.

The problem here is that you're dealing with 3 axes: The axis of the ecliptic, the axis of the moon's orbit, and the axis of the Earth's tilt.

Determining the position of the sun is easier because there are only two axes: the axis of the ecliptic and the axis of the earth's tilt. Since the angle between the axes of the ecliptic and the Earth's tilt is determined solely by the seasonal position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun, it's easy to say the apparent path of the sun through the sky is seasonal.

But since the moon's path is the result of the angle of between the three axes (again, the axis of the ecliptic, the axis of the moon's orbit, and the axes of the Earth's tilt), it is more complicated. The angle between the Earth's tilt and the ecliptic still varies based on the seasonal position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun, with a period of one year. But the axis of the moon's orbit precesses as a different rate, with a period of 18.6 years. Only looking at where the moon is in the 18.6 year cycle will not tell you the position of the apparent path of the moon in the sky. You must also know where the Earth is in its one year orbit around the sun to determine the moon's apparent path in the sky.

And since the maximum change in angle between the Earth's axis and the axis of the ecliptic, at about 47°, is much larger than that the maximum change in the angle between the axis of moon's orbit and the axis of the ecliptic, at about 10°, I would argue that it can be said the moon's path is generally seasonal.

In other words, if you only knew where the Earth was in its orbit around the sun (and thus know the season), your guess at the moon's highest place in the nighttime sky will be more accurate than if you only knew where the moon was in its 18.6 year cycle. Thus, the apparent position of the moon's path through the sky is more determined by the season than by where the moon is in its 18.6 year cycle.

Bless you patient people for trying to appeal to a sense of reason that just isn't there.

I have nothing but respect for how you guys are handling this increasingly blatant nose-thumbing being directed your way.

The ignorance has now entered the resignation phase of its winter path.