That's it! We're done! PM Bends OVER for Obama!

Originally posted by weirdguy

I bet you have fallen for the old "China is a push over" routine, have'nt you

Your troops are going to be redeployed from Iraq and Stan and sent to the Pacific because
China is a threat.

China is a threat based upon what evidence? China is a bigger threat to itself. From social stability, all the way to the economy, that country is incredibly fragile.

China's economy relies strongly on consumers that is true,

If you mean consumers from other nations, then yes, we agree. Chinese consumerism is actually down today vs. 2000.

but it is they who are the largest manufacturing nation in the world and the largest exporter too. As I stated earlier
it would not take very much effort for them to arm up.

Oh damn it sorry, I need a bit of goose stepping now

Oh man thats better, any how

China has 2.3 million active personel in their military fulltime I imagine their logistics would be a
nightmare any day of the week.

Of course the Americans have much better toys than anyone and I prefer it that way lol

How many years have we been fighting Taliban, something like 11 and still going.

Now imagine a war with an industrial power like China, come on

lmao isnt that song from command and conquer? (from the video)

Hey, don't take my word for it...

“Through my visit over the past couple of days in the United States, I am surprised by the sophistication of the U.S. military, including its weapons and equipment and doctrines and so on,” People’s Liberation Army leader General Chen Bingde said. “I can tell you that China does not have the capability to challenge the United States. As a matter of fact, the reconnaissance activities along China’s coast by U.S. military aircraft and vessels are seen in China as deterrents.”
For emphasis, the general added, “What I’m trying to say is that we do not have the capability to challenge the United States.”
defensetech.org...

And a conventional military exchange with China would quickly result in a nuclear exchange. The US could destroy Chinas conventional military forces, as well as the infrastructure of the country. Hell, just taking out the 3 gorges damn could cripple China. I should add that I really don't like discussing such scenarios...

p.s. Are'nt you guys, Bankrupt? Financially I mean

Bankrupt? No, in fact, the US is in much better shape compared to europe. Also, Australia is in the same boat as us, financially. Your external debt equates to roughly 95% of your GDP.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by xlb40


Yet we're still buying houses and getting Jobs and our finance minister got some international award for Australia riding the wave that swamped everyone else. Though I don't think he deserved it as it was more the work of the previous government that kept us from going down with everyone else.

Originally posted by xlb40

Originally posted by Ironclad

Originally posted by jibeho
Sorry Buddy ,but, apparently Obama Fever as stricken Australian govt. in a bad way. I can only imagine what our fearless leader has in store for these US troops deployed in your country.

JUST SAY NO! to Obama. I don't know what else to say about this new move by Nobama.

Pretty obvious isn't it.

This is the first step in the complete annexation of Australia by the US.

One whici will mean the end of our healthcare system, environmental industry, school system, banking, housing and a whole bunch of other crap that make the US the worthless place to live that it is today..!!

Im not sure why you think the US is "worthless". Its actually the opposite. A nation of 320 million people ranks FOURTH in HDI...has a VAST amount of natural resources, and is easily the richest nation on the planet with a GDP of $15 trillion+. The US also has the worlds best universities, and is without a doubt the most innovative nation on the planet.

Now, with that said, the US is not perfect, and it does have its fair share of issues. And Australia is not about to become the "51st state". In the very unlikely scenario that it actually did become a US state, the standard of living and everything Australia is now, likely wouldn't change at all. I would be totally against this though as it would likely shift US policies further left.

But the U.S isn't the only one sitting on natural resources and they don't go on the GDP when looking at the affordability, level of living standard and health and well being of a population, The U.S has a high GDP but when it comes to standard of living and personal wealth of the individual and health of the population the U.S is pretty far down the ladder.

www.forbes.com...

internationalliving.com...

www.gfmag.com...


Please read the links as they're interesting.

No this is not a bag on the U.S but as I've pointed out before it's all well and good to be able to strike at anyone any time with super carriers etc but what's it worth if your population is dying of easy to treat illness and you have homeless war veterans and and the average person can't afford basic medication?

Any country can use its wealth to fund a war machine at the cost of lives and living standards of its people but most developed countries don't.

I agree that there is hype over China but I think the question must be asked. What does a country not at war need 2 million full time soldiers for if it's not thinking of perhaps using them? History shows that a country with an above average full time defence force doesn't stay at peace for long. Though I don't think China is the threat that is being made out. Not to Australia and not to the U.S

Going on our history with indonesia , which isn't a happy one as is made out by some on this thread, Australia should be frowning on the U.S for selling them F16's but it's not. Australia is now going to sell uranium to India which isn't signed to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and therefore is going against everything Australia believes, and the U.S should be frowing on Australia but it's not. And in the background of all this is Australia and the U.S giving happy snaps and showing solidarity and support of it all. Why?

China I believe is interested in( perhaps) something hostile to Indonesia and India. When I think of the ease that China could get troops on the ground in those countries things start to make sense to a point.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by Timely

 

What you are saying is true. Canada has been in some of the same places in the same capacity.

But this is different. This isn't Australia landing on somebody else's shore, or taking part in the victory parade when the "magnificent seven" steamroller some basket case nation.

What's going on now is a "reality bites" moment in Australian politics.

Just like when the US icebreaker Manhattan sailed through Canadian waters in the north, trying to assert that the Northwest Passage through the Canadian northern islands is an international waterway. (One of our teeny tiny tough as nails icebreakers had to haul them out of the pack ice.)

Welcome to our nightmare.

edit on 18-11-2011 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

Hmm. Reading through all your posts it would seem to me that you're angry. Then you say ship from another country sailed through Canadas waters and Canada could do nothing about it and for some reason (it seems to me) that you're trying to project that weakness on to Australia. Australia is a maritime nation surrounded by ocean and very capable of protecting it's waters. Australia sees smuggling boats as they leave Indonesia. And they're intercepted.

Nothing gets past Jindalee and low level 3. Not even the stealth fighter could do it. And it did try.

. We have always been a modern country and though it might have been off the beaten track to you, Europeans and Brits have been moving, holidaying and remembering Australia for years.

Originally posted by steveknows

But the U.S isn't the only one sitting on natural resources

Of course not, but the US has more natural gas than Russia, is the saudi arabia of Coal, and has some of the worlds highest oil shale deposits ever discovered.

and they don't go on the GDP when looking at the affordability, level of living standard and health and well being of a population, The U.S has a high GDP but when it comes to standard of living and personal wealth of the individual and health of the population the U.S is pretty far down the ladder.

I quoted the HDI used by the UN. The US is fourth, and healthcare, standard of living, affordability, etc are all taken into consideration. Plus, I have the added benefit of living here, so I know this country quite well.

but what's it worth if your population is dying of easy to treat illness and you have homeless war veterans and and the average person can't afford basic medication?

Honestly, I have never known anyone or seen anyone who is not treated for basic illnesses. Homeless war veterans? Its unfortunate, but there are homeless war veterans in every country. This is not unique to the US. Also, a bit more about healthcare, the US has the best healthcare in the world, the problem has been insurance coverage. Yet, 86% of Americans are insured, and a good deal of them happy with their coverage plans.

Additionally, the US has the highest median income in the world. All is fine and well using GDP per capita figures, but I suppose if you want to go that route, the US has the highest GDP per capita figures of any country with a population over 10 million.

Any country can use its wealth to fund a war machine at the cost of lives and living standards of its people but most developed countries don't.

The US spends about 5% of our GDP on defense (perhaps 1-2% higher than most developed nations)...Also, we have one of the highest standards of living in the world...and we have a population that is absolutely massive! The largest of any first world nation. I find it impressive that a country with 320 million people, has such a high standard of living.

I agree that there is hype over China but I think the question must be asked. What does a country not at war need 2 million full time soldiers for if it's not thinking of perhaps using them?

China is actually in the midst of downsizing its force in favor of a smaller more logistically friendly force. They're going the American route.

Going on our history with indonesia , which isn't a happy one as is made out by some on this thread, Australia should be frowning on the U.S for selling them F16's but it's not. Australia is now going to sell uranium to India which isn't signed to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and therefore is going against everything Australia believes, and the U.S should be frowing on Australia but it's not. And in the background of all this is Australia and the U.S giving happy snaps and showing solidarity and support of it all. Why?

The US and Australia are great allies.

China I believe is interested in( perhaps) something hostile to Indonesia and India. When I think of the ease that China could get troops on the ground in those countries things start to make sense to a point.

edit on 22-11-2011 by steveknows because: Add

China lacks the logistical sophistication to invade anyone at this point. The fact that they havent invaded tiny tiawan starts to make sense to a point.

Originally posted by xlb40

Originally posted by steveknows

reserved

edit on 24-11-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by xlb40

Originally posted by steveknows

Of course not, but the US has more natural gas than Russia, is the saudi arabia of Coal, and has some of the worlds highest oil shale deposits ever discovered.

Russia has the largest coal and gas reserves.

www.worldcoal.org...

www.nationmaster.com...

I quoted the HDI used by the UN. The US is fourth, and healthcare, standard of living, affordability, etc are all taken into consideration. Plus, I have the added benefit of living here, so I know this country quite well.

Ok lets go the UNHDI. The U.S ranks #4 and Australia ranks #2. What happened to the U.S having the highest living standard? The UNHDI you refered to says different as you just pointed out..

Its unfortunate, but there are homeless war veterans in every country. This is not unique to the US.

No most developed countries don't have homeless vets. Mental health is the main reason followed by economics and there's no homeless vets I can find info on in Australia today. So if there is a vet who is homeless then that person just happens to be a vet but it would be the result of not accepting the help that is put in place. 2000 homeless vets isn't just a figure among the homless. It's an obvious failure to look after your vets.

Also, a bit more about healthcare, the US has the best healthcare in the world, the problem has been insurance coverage. Yet, 86% of Americans are insured, and a good deal of them happy with their coverage plans.

It would seem that you don't know what universal national healthcare means. It means that you don't need insurance. The U.S does not have a universal national healthcare. If I get sick or injured i go to my doctor or hospital and hand over my medicare card (national healthcare card) It doesn't cost me and I don't need insurance. Alot of countries have it but not the U.S. and due to the Reciprocal Health Care Agreement of alot of other countries, Canada, sweden, Germany etc, I don't need travel insurance in those countries. If I get sick or injured I just hand over my Australian medicare card and I'm taken care of. With national healthcare we don't need insurance to get medical treatment and drugs are cheap compared to the U.S .

I have the benefit if growing up in Australia and living in the U.S for two years. Two years isn't a lifetime but a person would have had to live inside the whole time to not have an idea of the country. I had to have insurance unless I wanted to go to Canada if I was ill or injured. Have you been outside the U.S to another developed country?

I saw free clininics in the U.S which relied on donations and staffed by volunteers so the underpriviledged who couldn't afford insurance could get medical treatment. You don't need that in countries with universal national healthcare.

Additionally, the US has the highest median income in the world. All is fine and well using GDP per capita figures, but I suppose if you want to go that route, the US has the highest GDP per capita figures of any country with a population over 10 million.

It was you who pulled out the GDP card and it was I who pulled you up. Also you might want to look at this link in regard to median income. en.wikipedia.org...(nominal)_per_capita

The US spends about 5% of our GDP on defense (perhaps 1-2% higher than most developed nations)...Also, we have one of the highest standards of living in the world...and we have a population that is absolutely massive! The largest of any first world nation. I find it impressive that a country with 320 million people, has such a high standard of living.

Well that's almost 300 million tax payers. That's one of the reasons the economy is so big. The size of a population is not really reflective of it's wealth but rather its comsumer aspect. Supply and demand. Yet you still suffer if you get sick and don't have insurance. You might hve a huge GDP but if the generated weaalth insn't pst down through national healthcare and such them the U.S might be well off but Americans aren't.

China is actually in the midst of downsizing its force in favor of a smaller more logistically friendly force. They're going the American route.

Could you please post at least a couple of links to back up this one and anything else you have said?

Originally posted by steveknows
Russia has the largest coal and gas reserves.

New report says U.S. has largest fossil fuel reserves in world

The United States is the world’s third largest oil producer, after Russia and Saudi Arabia. And, Goldman Sachs indicated that it expects the United States to take the top spot as the largest oil producer by 2017.

Additionally, U.S. Shale Gas Weakening Russian, Iranian Petro-Power, Study Finds

Government Report: America's Combined Energy Resources Largest on Earth

Ok lets go the UNHDI. The U.S ranks #4 and Australia ranks #2. What happened to the U.S having the highest living standard? The UNHDI you refered to says different as you just pointed out..

I said the US has one of the highest living standards in the world...the highest for any country with a population of over 50 million... Also, Australia also has a population that is 16x smaller than Americas...Thats like comparing NY to the rest of America.

No most developed countries don't have homeless vets.

Like Australia? That doesnt seem to fit reality.
www.dva.gov.au...
Any country that has a military has homeless vets.

It would seem that you don't know what universal national healthcare means.

Who said anything about Universal healthcare?

Alot of countries have it but not the U.S. and due to the Reciprocal Health Care Agreement of alot of other countries, Canada, sweden, Germany etc, I don't need travel insurance in those countries. If I get sick or injured I just hand over my Australian medicare card and I'm taken care of. With national healthcare we don't need insurance to get medical treatment and drugs are cheap compared to the U.S .

If you were in the US, and were injured, you would still be treated. In fact, its likely that the taxpayer would cover your cost regardless...

It was you who pulled out the GDP card and it was I who pulled you up. Also you might want to look at this link in regard to median income. en.wikipedia.org...(nominal)_per_capita

You posted this link. Which uses PPP....now you post another link that uses nominal...so which is it? I realize why you used nominal, but why are you now ignoring the PPP figures you posted earlier?

Anyways, I referred you to Median income.
en.wikipedia.org...

Well that's almost 300 million tax payers. That's one of the reasons the economy is so big. The size of a population is not really reflective of it's wealth but rather its comsumer aspect. Supply and demand. Yet you still suffer if you get sick and don't have insurance.

You still receive treatment regardless of coverage. We even have government ran hospitals very similar to what you would find in Australia.

Could you please post at least a couple of links to back up this one

After digging a bit, it appears that it was merely a rumour. Kinda of a weird rumour to get started, but Chinas defense ministry supposedly has denied that China was set to cut down none PLA combat brigades by 700,000.

Originally posted by xlb40

Originally posted by steveknows

I said the US has one of the highest living standards in the world...the highest for any country with a population of over 50 million... Also, Australia also has a population that is 16x smaller than Americas...Thats like comparing NY to the rest of America.

But we Aussies read time and time again on this site that we're a poor people beacuse our economy isn't as large as yours? Now I'm reading that we have a higher living standard because it's not as large as yours?

perhaps it's just better managed with things put in place to make it that way.

No most developed countries don't have homeless vets.

Like Australia? That doesnt seem to fit reality.
www.dva.gov.au...
Any country that has a military has homeless vets.

You gone and included the figures for WW2 vets ( dementia and living in accomodations and old age widows of vets) lets get real. they're not from todays wars and living on the streets. "A first approximation for estimating the number of homeless veterans would be 4.9% of 104,000 (ie. approximately 5,000 veterans). However, the age distribution of veterans is not the same as the general population, and it is necessary to make allowances for the higher proportion of older people among the veteran population"

It would seem that you don't know what universal national healthcare means.

Who said anything about Universal healthcare?

You said that the U.S has the best healthcare in the world. Universal healthcare says otherwise.

It was you who pulled out the GDP card and it was I who pulled you up. Also you might want to look at this link in regard to median income. en.wikipedia.org...(nominal)_per_capita

You posted this link. Which uses PPP....now you post another link that uses nominal...so which is it? I realize why you used nominal, but why are you now ignoring the PPP figures you posted earlier?

In response to your GDP thing.

Well that's almost 300 million tax payers. That's one of the reasons the economy is so big. The size of a population is not really reflective of it's wealth but rather its comsumer aspect. Supply and demand. Yet you still suffer if you get sick and don't have insurance.

You still receive treatment regardless of coverage. We even have government ran hospitals very similar to what you would find in Australia.

You still did't answer my question. have you been to Australia? When and for how long?

Could you please post at least a couple of links to back up this one

After digging a bit, it appears that it was merely a rumour. Kinda of a weird rumour to get started, but Chinas defense ministry .........

So you couldn't back up your claim that china couldn't support its army?


You seem to make a point and then argue against your own point and then claim it's the other person who made the point.

You might want to read the original post of yours I repsonded to being the one where you go on about the 15 trillion GDP www.abovetopsecret.com...

Then you might want to read the one where I say that when looking at standards of living they don't go on the GDP. www.abovetopsecret.com...

The you might want to look at the one where you said that you quoted the HDI, though in that original post you made no mention of the HDI but only the GDP, Then you might want to look at that last one again and see where you said "All is fine and well using GDP per capita figures, but I suppose if you want to go that route, www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 24-11-2011 by steveknows because: Typo

Originally posted by steveknows

But we Aussies read time and time again on this site that we're a poor people beacuse our economy isn't as large as yours? Now I'm reading that we have a higher living standard because it's not as large as yours?
perhaps it's just better managed with things put in place to make it that way.

Australia is first world...do they have the economic clout and overall supremacy that the US has? No, but they are an advanced first world nation. With that said, the US economy is much more complex and diverse than Australias.

You said that the U.S has the best healthcare in the world. Universal healthcare says otherwise.

Health "care". As in biotechnology, as well as the best facilities in the world. The fact that the Italian PM, and a host of european leaders/sports stars, come to the US rather than stick with their "free" healthcare is quite telling.

You seem to make a point and then argue against your own point and then claim it's the other person who made the point.

Rather than try and argue against facts, I owned up to that mistake, you should try it sometime.

You didn't bother to acknowledge your error with the Russian natural resource argument. Since you didn't address the facts I posted, I will take your silence on the subject as a forfeit on that argument. You don't see me rubbing it in your face, even though you chose to ignore it. Could you be any denser? lmao

You might want to read the original post of yours I repsonded to being the one where you go on about the 15 trillion GDP www.abovetopsecret.com...

The US equates to 27% of the worlds nominal GDP. That is a HUGE percentage of the worlds GDP, and it is in one country. It is partly why the US influence world wide is so great.

Then you might want to read the one where I say that when looking at standards of living they don't go on the GDP. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. The fact is, Australia, New Zealand, and Norway do not have the world wide influence, economically, culturally, and militarily that the US does. You can keep your slightly higher standard of living...The US is 4th, and has a higher standard of living than any nation with a population greater than the size of new york (or australia). I'd love to see australias numbers if they had a population comparable to the US...you're comparing apples to oranges my friend.

The you might want to look at the one where you said that you quoted the HDI, though in that original post you made no mention of the HDI but only the GDP, Then you might want to look at that last one again and see where you said "All is fine and well using GDP per capita figures, but I suppose if you want to go that route, www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 24-11-2011 by steveknows because: Typo

Does your reading comprehension suck this bad? Srsly? reread what I wrote and in the context of which I wrote it. If it isn't clear enough, then reread what I've wrote with this post...if that still doesnt work, maybe its time for you to stop posting? Just a thought.

Originally posted by xlb40

Originally posted by steveknows

But we Aussies read time and time again on this site that we're a poor people beacuse our economy isn't as large as yours? Now I'm reading that we have a higher living standard because it's not as large as yours?
perhaps it's just better managed with things put in place to make it that way.

Australia is first world...do they have the economic clout and overall supremacy that the US has? No, but they are an advanced first world nation. With that said, the US economy is much more complex and diverse than Australias.

You said that the U.S has the best healthcare in the world. Universal healthcare says otherwise.

Health "care". As in biotechnology, as well as the best facilities in the world. The fact that the Italian PM, and a host of european leaders/sports stars, come to the US rather than stick with their "free" healthcare is quite telling.

You seem to make a point and then argue against your own point and then claim it's the other person who made the point.

Rather than try and argue against facts, I owned up to that mistake, you should try it sometime.

You didn't bother to acknowledge your error with the Russian natural resource argument. Since you didn't address the facts I posted, I will take your silence on the subject as a forfeit on that argument. You don't see me rubbing it in your face, even though you chose to ignore it. Could you be any denser? lmao

You might want to read the original post of yours I repsonded to being the one where you go on about the 15 trillion GDP www.abovetopsecret.com...

The US equates to 27% of the worlds nominal GDP. That is a HUGE percentage of the worlds GDP, and it is in one country. It is partly why the US influence world wide is so great.

Then you might want to read the one where I say that when looking at standards of living they don't go on the GDP. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. The fact is, Australia, New Zealand, and Norway do not have the world wide influence, economically, culturally, and militarily that the US does. You can keep your slightly higher standard of living...The US is 4th, and has a higher standard of living than any nation with a population greater than the size of new york (or australia). I'd love to see australias numbers if they had a population comparable to the US...you're comparing apples to oranges my friend.

The you might want to look at the one where you said that you quoted the HDI, though in that original post you made no mention of the HDI but only the GDP, Then you might want to look at that last one again and see where you said "All is fine and well using GDP per capita figures, but I suppose if you want to go that route, www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 24-11-2011 by steveknows because: Typo

Does your reading comprehension suck this bad? Srsly? reread what I wrote and in the context of which I wrote it. If it isn't clear enough, then reread what I've wrote with this post...if that still doesnt work, maybe its time for you to stop posting? Just a thought.

edit on 24-11-2011 by xlb40 because: (no reason given)

You keep taking things out of contex and backflipping when its suits you. You can HOORAH all you want but at the end of the day by standards of living you're not all that great, Also your oil shale you boast about and which I didn't bother to respond to isn't all you've cracked it up to be. It doesn't give the returns for the cost of getting at it and how to do it and make it cheap to extract is a head cratch for any country who has oil shale which includes the U.S and Australia. Also in a healthy economy the size of the population should have no reflection on living standards. Your excuse of the U.S being #4 because it has 300 million people is lame. You've ignored this.

And you still haven't answerd my question of have you been to or lived in Australia so I'm guessing that you haven't and you're commenting through ignorance. I've lived in the U.S for 2 years in Victorville SoCal and I can tell you that the U.S DOESN'T have it as good as you're making out. There's nothing better than experience and that is something you so obviously lack and you're basing your opinions on uneducated assumptions. Run along now small world boy I'm done with you.

Originally posted by steveknows
You can HOORAH all you want but at the end of the day by standards of living you're not all that great,

"Not all that great"? My standard of living is spectacular, probably much better than yours. I live in the most powerful, influential nation on earth, the worlds sole superpower. I make good money as an engineer doing a job that I love. Additionally, I live in a world that is shaped by my country, not yours. Knowing all that, i'd give two spots up on an HDI index that is practically meaningless.

Also your oil shale you boast about and which I didn't bother to respond to isn't all you've cracked it up to be.

READ THE DAMN LINKS. I know they say ignorance is bliss, but you just went full retard. The US is expected to be the worlds #1 oil producer by 2017. knowledge is power..."the more you know."

Also in a healthy economy the size of the population should have no reflection on living standards.

Your excuse of the U.S being #4 because it has 300 million people is lame. You've ignored this.I've lived in the U.S for 2 years in Victorville SoCal and I can tell you that the U.S DOESN'T have it as good as you're making out.

Funny that! Considering many U.S. states (Connecticut, NY, Wyoming, California, Illinois and Florida) rank ahead of Australia, Switzerland, Canada and Japan in HDI. Also, poorer states like Kentucky ranks ahead of France, Arkansas ranks ahead of the U.K...and the poorest US state, Mississippi ranks ahead of Italy.

There's nothing better than experience and that is something you so obviously lack and you're basing your opinions on uneducated assumptions. Run along now small world boy I'm done with you.

You clearly lack literacy, and logic. Its YOUR fault that you cannot define your points in a succinct manner. I will take the above emotional outburst as you conceding defeat...running with your tail tucked firmly and your head down. The coup de grace has been completed!

I've also never once said that Australia is not a great place to live. I spent an entire summer in Sydney, and loved it. Australia is quite high on my list...I would definitely move there as my second choice.

reply to post by AussieAmandaC


I feel for you, truly. We hope this clown won't be here after the next election, either. Considering how badly he's messed things up, just about ANYONE could beat him!