Russian scientist denies helping Iran build bomb

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th

The WORST that could happen to Iran under the NPT is that they lose their assistance and some materials if they got any..
That's it, nothing more..

That is assuming that the punitive measures MUST be based solely on the NPT, with nothing else considered. An interesting argument. Can you cite a compelling reason for ignoring the aggravating circumstances which are not addressed in the NPT, such as the overt threats being tossed about?

Not sure why you keep asking why I bring up Israel..
Umm because they are the hypocrites having a cry about all this when they are sitting on an undeclared stockpile of nuclear weapons..

Can you cite a compelling legal reason why Israel SHOULD declare any nukes they may have?

You tell me how a country with undeclared weapons can complain about another country that they believe may someday have nuclear weapons, can come out looking like anything other than whinging hypocrites????

Paint it or spin it any way you want..
Those is the facts..

If someone never makes a promise to begin with, how can they then later be accused of breaking a promise which they never made?

Originally posted by nenothtu


If someone never makes a promise to begin with, how can they then later be accused of breaking a promise which they never made?

Logic at its finest......

reply to post by nenothtu


The threats are being tossed around by both sides daily..
If we acted on every word spoken then the world would have been destroyed years ago.

The point is, it really has nothing to do with the NPT or IAEA..

It's simply Israel concerned that if Iran gets a nuke that they will bomb Israel..
Nothing more, nothing less...

My problem with that, even if true, is the fact that Israel also has nukes..
Sorry but I don't trust Israel any more than I trust Iran..

That's my entire point of debate..
No treaties, no promises, just simple facts..

Originally posted by Pervius
We violated the Chemical Weapons Treaty. Iran filed a protest at the Chemical Weapons Convention, over us bombing the Chemical Weapons Bunkers in Iraq and releasing those poisons into the atmosphere, violating the Treaty. Plus they claim we flew out the chemical weapons that survived and we didn't declare it to the Convention.

Is there any possibility people can remain on topic instead of pointing out incidents that have absolutely nothing to do with Iran and their failure to comply with the NPT / IAEA? However, since you brought it up you should do a bit more research. Towards the end of the Iran - Iraq war, Iran delpoyed chemical weapons against Iraq.

Originally posted by Pervius
The US actually replied to the Iranian protest. You can read the document on the Conventions website. We admitted to violating the Treaty, page 5 of the US reply.

As did Iran as well as Iraq.

Originally posted by Pervius
The IAEA isn't being forced to crack down on Israel's nuclear bomb program. And they have enough weapons to destroy the entire middle east. Kind of double standards putting sanctions on Iran for a nuclear reactor when we've never put sanctions on Israel for actually making hundreds of nuclear bombs. Maybe thousands. Who knows. Nobody is allowed to inspect Israel's nuclear program.

You guys are absolutely amazing in your ability to only see what you want. Lets try this again.

The NPT / IAEA has NOTHING to do with Israel since Israel is not a part of either treaty. Because of that there will never be any type of inspectors in Israel.

Ill ask you the same question I asked earlier to another poster who ignored it. Please provide your source that shows Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons.

If you dont like Israels stance, thats you. You guys really need to get it through your heads that Iran is a SIGNATORY to the NPT / IAEA. They are violating those treaty obligations. why is this concept so hard for you and others to understand? Is your hatred for Israel and the US that bad that you willingly ignore facts that dont support your claims?

Originally posted by Pervius
But Iran has allowed the IAEA to inspect their program. They have a right to live, I hate to bust anybody's bubble. Since Israel's got hundreds of nuclear bombs and Iran gets punished for not even having 1......hypocrites.

Again, get off Israel. They arent signatories, so no matter how loud you and some others whine about Israel, it wont change the facts. Iran on the other hand is being hypocritical for lying to the UN / IAEA about its program.

Iran refused to allow inspectors into several nuclear facilities. Iran only capitulated just prior to the most recent IAEA report to the UN.

Originally posted by Pervius
Iranians have a right to live. I think it's a shame Israel/US are going to slaughter them with this continuing religious war and start WWIII. Well it won't be WWIII.....IRan will get slaughtered. They have no means to defend themselves.

You guys are awsome at deflection.. Israel has a right to exist and live, and to date we have never heard Israel publicly state that they will wipe Iran off the map.

You guys need to learn as well as understand what the hell is going on, because so far the posts coming from you and a few others are anything but accurate or correct.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
All just you twisting..

No BiB, its not twisting.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
The WORST that could happen to Iran under the NPT is that they lose their assistance and some materials if they got any..
That's it, nothing more..

So now you are saying the NPT has punishment enforcement. You really need to learn about the agencies and the processes involved. You also should take notes on your posts so you arent undermining your own position by giving conflicting answers.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
You know full well that even if Iran had NOT signed onto the NPT we would still be in this position only Israel would have less information to go on because the Iranians DID let inspectors in on many occasions..

Right.. Now go back and read the NPT / IAEA requirements. Please point out in those documents where it states signatory nations can let inspectors in only some of the time.

Again, research the topic please.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Not sure why you keep asking why I bring up Israel..

Because in case you didnt notice, the topic in this thread is about russian Scientists helping Iran build there nuke weapons. You seem to ignore all of that and constantly bring Israel into the mix. As has been stated time and time again that you seem to ignore, Israel is not part of either treaty. So all the whining about Israel and what they have is baseless.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Umm because they are the hypocrites having a cry about all this when they are sitting on an undeclared stockpile of nuclear weapons..

Iran should never have joined the NPT / IAEA if they were going to just pick and choose the rules they will follow and not follow. Israels program is not in violation of any UN rsolutions because theyarent part of the treaties.

If Iran wants nukes, then they can withdraw from the 2 treaties. You are using Israel to deflect Irans illegal activity.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
You tell me how a country with undeclared weapons can complain about another country that they believe may someday have nuclear weapons, can come out looking like anything other than whinging hypocrites????

Asked and answered but apparently your just not capable of understaning the difference.

Israel - Not a signatory to the IAEA / NPT = none of the UNs business.
Iran - Signatory to the NPT / IAEA = treaty obligations and conditions

Do you understand it now?

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Paint it or spin it any way you want..
Those is the facts..

right.. saying those are the facts while flashing a big V for victory signs doesnt make them facts. Its not spin, its the facts, to use your term. As has been said you really need to learn about the NPT / IAEA and the difference between signatory / non signatory.

Please cite your sources that "prove me wrong"

reply to post by Xcathdra

You guys need to learn as well as understand what the hell is going on, because so far the posts coming from you and a few others are anything but accurate or correct.

That's simply your opinion..

Like I said, ignore the NPT, it truly is irrelevant..
Iran has broken the treaty because they did not like the way it was being handled..
Bur if they'd never signed the treaty Israel would still be screaming today asking that Iran be attacked..FACT...

My other points still stand..

Oh and you know darn well Israel having nukes is about the worst kept secret around..
There's even been a few slips with their existence being mentioned in US official documents..

reply to post by Xcathdra

If Iran wants nukes, then they can withdraw from the 2 treaties. You are using Israel to deflect Irans illegal activity.

Please show me where it is illegal..
What "law" have Iran broken ??

I wasn't aware that the treaty was a "legally binding document" so if Iran are breaking the law then so is every other country that produces nukes..
And that's still debatable on Iran's part..

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
The threats are being tossed around by both sides daily..
If we acted on every word spoken then the world would have been destroyed years ago.

Israeli threats are a warning, since if Iran gets the bomb, chances are Israel will be the test location. Iran on the other hand, going back to the revolution, has been consistent in there mantra of the great and lesser satans and calling for their destruction.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
The point is, it really has nothing to do with the NPT or IAEA..

So now your back to sayiing they arent relevant. Any chance you can make up your mind on this point? It has everything to do with both agencies. Why? Because Iran, being a signatory, are required to follow the rules. Iran apparently doesnt think they have to.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
It's simply Israel concerned that if Iran gets a nuke that they will bomb Israel..
Nothing more, nothing less...

With ahmadenijads comments about wiping Israel off the map and Iran refusing to comply with thier treaty obligations, Israel has every right to be concerned.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
My problem with that, even if true, is the fact that Israel also has nukes..
Sorry but I don't trust Israel any more than I trust Iran..

Please cite your source that backs this calim up. In addition please provide sources that show Israel has thousand of nukes.

As far as trust goes, Arab countries have invaded Israel multiple times in the last 60 years. Israel is not only more credible, they are able to act like adults and understand their actions and consequences, where as Iran doesnt care at ll.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
That's my entire point of debate..
No treaties, no promises, just simple facts..

Yet none of your "facts" have any type of sources to confirm your claims.

Also, your argument to date revoveld around Israel and their "illegal activities". Any particular reason you are willing to go after Israel by claiming the moral high ground while ignoring the fact Iran is engaged in illegal activites, and yet you remain quiet.

Why?

reply to post by Xcathdra

Also, your argument to date revoveld around Israel and their "illegal activities". Any particular reason you are willing to go after Israel by claiming the moral high ground while ignoring the fact Iran is engaged in illegal activites, and yet you remain quiet.

Firstly, what is "illegal", please cite the "law"...

Secondly all there is are vague reports that the IAEA have received from unknown sources that say they may be involved in looking at building a nuke..

Not exactly confirmed proof of anything..

reply to post by Xcathdra

As far as trust goes, Arab countries have invaded Israel multiple times in the last 60 years. Israel is not only more credible, they are able to act like adults and understand their actions and consequences, where as Iran doesnt care at ll.

2nd line

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
That's simply your opinion..

Uhm no.. Read the NPT / IAEA material

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Like I said, ignore the NPT, it truly is irrelevant..

Uhm no - Read the NPT / AIEA material

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Iran has broken the treaty because they did not like the way it was being handled..

Iran violated the treaties because they arent complying with the requirements they accepted when they signed on.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Bur if they'd never signed the treaty Israel would still be screaming today asking that Iran be attacked..FACT...

Again simply saying fact doesnt make it so. As far as attacking Iran and your hypothetical, I would say war wouldbe present as well. Iran doesnt need nukes to continue to call for the destructio of Israel and to wipe them off the map.

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
My other points still stand..

not really

Originally posted by ipleadthe5th
Oh and you know darn well Israel having nukes is about the worst kept secret around..
There's even been a few slips with their existence being mentioned in US official documents..

Speaking of secrets, Iran has a few instalations that are secret and they refuse the inspectors access.

If Iran is allowed to lie about their nuke program, stating its for peaceful purposes only, then why cant you accept Israels response that they dont have any nuclear weapons?

Double standard based on hatered, party of 1, your table is now ready.

reply to post by ipleadthe5th


Thanks for sending me the U2U as well as confirming for me that you are in fact BackinBlack. The U2U has been forwarded to the mods.

based on that, im done responding to you.

reply to post by Xcathdra

If Iran is allowed to lie about their nuke program, stating its for peaceful purposes only, then why cant you accept Israels response that they dont have any nuclear weapons?

You're really sticking to your stance that Israel has no nuclear weapons??
It sorta throws your credibility out the window you know..

Double standard based on hatered, party of 1, your table is now ready.

You must be accustomed to eating alone..
I on the other hand have friends so make that a big table please.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by ipleadthe5th

 

Thanks for sending me the U2U as well as confirming for me that you are in fact BackinBlack. The U2U has been forwarded to the mods.

based on that, im done responding to you.

What a pathetic individual you really are..
Like a spoiled little brat that didn't get his way..
I feel sorry for you mate, must be lonely..

Originally posted by Xcathdra
I have more faith in the Israeli government refraining from using nukes except as an absolute last resort and in a defensive manner, where as Iran I dont. Iran is one of those countries who would use a nuke as a first strike with the sole intent of killing as many Israelis as they can.

And this is exactly the opposite of what I think.

I base my assertion on common sense.

Iran has not invaded other countries in modern times. It has NOT threatened war with other countries (a few words by Iranian leadership mistranslated and taken out of context hardly constitutes a real threat).

Israel HAS invaded other countries in modern times. Israel HAS threatened war with Iran by putting serious effort into lobbying both domestic government and foreign governments for support. Israel HAS committed war crimes by issuing orders to indiscriminately kill Palestinians/attacking civilian targets (like schools/hospitals/UN stations/airports/peacekeepers)/deploying weapons banned under international treaties (such as white phosphorus against civilians)/harvested organs from the bodies of dead Palestinians for sale on the black market/etc etc.

The facts show that Israel is a jingoist country. Do you know what Jingoism is? Here's the scale:

Patriotism - Your population supports the sake of the nation.
Nationalism - Your population is actively rallying behind national policies.
Chauvanism - Your population believes that your country is superior to other countries.
Jingoism/Ultra-chauvanism - Your country has a hostile foreign policy for the sake of its own nationalism.

Thanks for sending me the U2U as well as confirming for me that you are in fact BackinBlack. The U2U has been forwarded to the mods.

based on that, im done responding to you.

Oh good God, are you serious? Nobody likes a rat.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
And this is exactly the opposite of what I think.

Cool

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
I base my assertion on common sense.

ok

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Iran has not invaded other countries in modern times. It has NOT threatened war with other countries (a few words by Iranian leadership mistranslated and taken out of context hardly constitutes a real threat).

Iran has threatened war with Israel as far back as the revolution. The mistranslation comment people keep making need to check their facts. It was not a mistranslation - the IRIB was the media outlet that reported the wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

The IRIB is a Iranian state controlled meda outlet like Presstv. Its hard to argue it was a mistranslation when its their own media.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Israel HAS invaded other countries in modern times.

When?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Israel HAS threatened war with Iran by putting serious effort into lobbying both domestic government and foreign governments for support.

No they threatened air strikes to take out the nuke sites. Iran has threaened war with Israel. As far as support of other countries, Iran has just as much support on their side via China and Russia. So what you are suggesting then is when it comes to Israel, no one should support them, yet its ok for countries to support and back iran.

Flawed logic?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Israel HAS committed war crimes by issuing orders to indiscriminately kill Palestinians/attacking civilian targets (like schools/hospitals/UN stations/airports/peacekeepers)/deploying weapons banned under international treaties (such as white phosphorus against civilians)/harvested organs from the bodies of dead Palestinians for sale on the black market/etc etc.

Yeah if you did some research you would find that the white phosphorus was not used as a weapon but as illumination. That incident was investigated by the UN, and per that investigation it was noted Israels use of the phosphorus was not a violation of any laws.

As far as schools / Hospitals etc - They have a protected status when it comes to military actions. They are to be avoided at all costs. Again if people would continue reading, they would see that those protected locations lose their protection status when they are used by Hamas.

While you are on this topic, is there any reason you ignore the UN investigation into Hamas during that incident? Is there any reason you are ignoring the violations Hamas creates by firing rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory? If you want to hold Israel accountible, then you must hold Hamas accountible.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
The facts show that Israel is a jingoist country. Do you know what Jingoism is? Here's the scale:

Patriotism - Your population supports the sake of the nation.
Nationalism - Your population is actively rallying behind national policies.
Chauvanism - Your population believes that your country is superior to other countries.
Jingoism/Ultra-chauvanism - Your country has a hostile foreign policy for the sake of its own nationalism.

ok... and?
Iran falls into that category as well.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Oh good God, are you serious? Nobody likes a rat.

Ironic how people take Israel and the US to task for not being truthful. Its hypocritical to try and seize the high ground by using the very same tactics they disdain (deception / honesty). As far as no one likeing a rat - thats not my concern. Im here to discuss / debate issues - this site is not a popularity contest.

We could say the same thing about USA and Israel

USA will always deny they have helped Israel to build the bomb
BTW ..they didnt help .. they simply gave them from the US nuke arsenal

soon to be used on Iran

I'm just curious...

For all those arguing against this possibility what will be your stance be when it is revealed that Iran has developed the bomb?

Then what? Will your stance change or will it simply switch to "Well Israel has it" ignoring your arguments presented thus far in denial over this story?

reply to post by SLAYER69


When Iran gets the bomb and they will,they will use them
on Israel and U.S.A.If there should be any debris left from
these bombs,they will have russian wording on them.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I'm just curious...

For all those arguing against this possibility what will be your stance be when it is revealed that Iran has developed the bomb?

Then what? Will your stance change or will it simply switch to "Well Israel has it" ignoring your arguments presented thus far in denial over this story?

edit on 14-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

I think the majority are saying why shouldn't Iran have the bomb?
Everyone else does and doesn't seem to always need permission..