The Tide is Turning

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Slayer already posted the best response. Kudos to him.You are not the majority. I do not need the entire system destroyed to remake it.Granted, the system has been overly corrupted. I'll start with voting out incumbent politicians and work within the system to change it. It started with the Tea Party.


Why take the best system in the world for over 200 years and destroy it? It makes no sense.
Life isn't fair, and never will be, so get over it. Take the newest NAFTA fiasco heading our way with the trucking industry. If it is anything remotely like NAFTA, you will see another sector of our economy collapse. Who gets the blame first, our Politicians for allowing themselves to be corrupted by the corporations who are next in line.

I will start with the Politicians first on all subjects. They are the creators of this mess and seek to blame everyone but themselves. I'll start with term limits on all of them.



How many of the OWS voted today? How many in this thread voted today? Shame on you if you did not vote in your local elections. It starts at home and I voiced my opinion today, that the Constitution provides to all of us.
No matter how much violence and protesting you want to do, my vote is more powerful.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I would not say they are evil but many are just misguided. Many are really honest in their frustration but I think also they are trying to make a popular connection to the anti-Vietnam protests, as though they want to be the new "heroes" they believe the other protesters were.

Protesting during the civil rights era could not even be placed on the same level as OWS. Civil rights protests were out of moral outrage over how people of color were denied the same basic rights as white people. That is an issue that took 100 years to come to fruition. The OWS is protesting economic factors only, and that is a far cry from the moral issues of race.

The Vietnam War era was very violent as the United States went through a complete culture change, but after the Hippie Era, the Sexual Revolution that included drugs and sex (which happened during the Hippie Era also) was all about having a good time. But today, people still think of the Vietnam War protesters as rebels and heroes without really understanding the times in which those people were living.

OWS seems to be solely about economics. I don't see any real moral reasons for the protests, but like I said in another post, they have the right to protest and I have a duty to defend their right even if I don't agree with it.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

You have actually expressed a lot of what I, and others, consider to be so wrong with OWS. That is the concept that it is correct or even necessary to 'fight' for a belief in a civil society. Of all of the nations on this planet, and most that have existed in the past, it is far simpler to walk down the street and vote. You can write your governmental representatives, you can walk right up to them and tell them often enough your views that it is ridiculous compared to other nations, and with the Internet it has never been easier to focus legitimate complaints towards those who should hear them.
What I notice in contrast to OWS and the Tea Party is the complete lack of respect shown to others by OWS, the obviously rampant civil disobedience and resorting to bad behavior before it is even proved that there is anything like a coordinated message or that it has even been heard if there is one.
Sure, I'm just as disgusted and upset with things as they are, but as a person with personal values I would never dream of causing the police officers I depend upon to come to my home or business when I desperately need them to have a reason to tear gas me and others. I fail to see the OWS point in that kind of behavior or many of the other actions I have seen on film or heard about. Hell, if the Tea Party had even 1 or 2 of the kinds of offensive signage the OWS crowd commonly sports the media would have gone insane and we'd still be hearing about it.
And, just to be clear, I have a very definite concept of what it is to really fight for something I believe in. I am retired Army and spent years in combat zones. You guys don't count anywhere in what I consider true American Patriots. Patriots are respectful, follow the law, make their voices heard, and only fight when there is no other way to relieve oppression.
In short, all I have gleaned from the OWS group is that they're pissed, maybe they want paid off somehow, and if they don't get it something is going to be 'occupied' or burned. Get real. They are running a simple 'protection' racket, and doing it poorly to boot.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Adolf Hitler was fighting for something, but let's not worry about what he was fighting for and let's just admire him for fighting. Joseph Stalin was fighting for something, but let us not worry about what he was fighting for and instead praise him for fighting. Mao Tse-tung was fighting for something, but come on guys, let's put aside the partisan bickering and really admire this guy for at the very least fighting.

The Khmer Rouge was fighting for something, but it is not acceptable among polite company to discuss what the Khmer Rouge was fighting for, nor is it even acceptable among polite company to discuss any atrocity the Khmer Rouge perpetuated, in this thread of political correctness all that is acceptable is to praise the Khmer Rouge for fighting against what they thought was wrong.

The Reign of Terror was a wholly popular movement so let's not get into any partisan politics about that very bloody revolution, let's just praise the Reign of Terror for its popularity among the French people of that time, and of course, as it should be in this thread, let's praise this Reign of Terror simply because they fought against what they thought was wrong, all else matters not, only the struggle man.

Look guys, let's admit it, the O.P. is right for scolding all of us for wanting to understand the ideology behind this "movement". We no longer live in an age where ideology matters, and to damn sure, we no longer live in an age where reason and critical thought matters. It is unseemly to analyze other peoples motives, not in this day age brothers and sisters! Do not judge others at all for any reason! Do not dare to insist that there is a right and a wrong, or good and evil! Such a thing only makes you an ideologue, and if there is anything that deserves judgement more than anything else, it is the goddamned ideologues, so do not dare to suggest that the "OWS" movement is rooted in any ideology, filled with ideologues, get it? Just shut the hell up and do what your told, and if you cannot praise us for being us, then explain to us bereft of any ideology what your problem is with being beautiful, man? Why do you hate us - the 99% - for being so pretty? Don't hate us because we're beautiful, man. Just praise us.

reply to post by macman


just like in any trade or proffesion,when things go wrong,go back to the basics and start over again.simple,if what they are asking is for a surrender of curruption peacefully,i think its dillusion.and the presure inflicted so far hasnt even began to touch the surface of such curruption. i am against curruption,that much we agree on.i do praise them for the accion which is better then no accion at all.

I don't think I can respect them for standing in the cold taking rubber bullets and tear gas because what they feel is right is completely wrong and also, the tear gas and rubber bullets are only used when these people break rules and laws and refuse to listen when told not to do something that could potentially harm themselves or others.

It'd be akin to me placing myself and a small child in the middle of a busy freeway in protest at the way the roads are painted and then complaining about police brutality when I refuse to move myself or the child out of danger and have to be taken by force to prevent either the deaths of myself and the child or the deaths of those drivers trying to swerve to avoid hitting us.

reply to post by L00kingGlass

1) Create an anti-corruption movement that isn't funded by George Soros or the Koch brothers.
2)...

The Tea Party is already working on #1 by locating and supporting candidates that are trustworthy and "on target". They are, however, working within the system. The system works, and progress is being made.

Contrary to MSM propaganda, the Tea Party is not funded by the Koch brothers. It is a "grass roots" movement. I've paid my own tab to attend those functions, just as all the rest who go to those events.

I'd suggest that the OWS people stop blaming everyone else for their failed choices and start working on their own sucess story. They are only victims of themselves.

Originally posted by L00kingGlass

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

I have stood (and continue to stand) for what I believe in, but I wasn't worried about taking rubber bullets and tear gas because Tea Party members are respectful of each other and their surroundings. The thought of fighting with police never crossed my mind. The OWS, and pretty much any and all "movements" from the left, always end up being violent and hateful. That is the nature of progressivism and liberalism. The OWS people are animals, camping in piles of their own garbage and bodily waste, raping and sexually assaulting each other, all the while remaining unable to articulate a rational or reasonable thought. I love the OWS protests, because these idiots continue to expose themselves for the clowns that they are more and more each day, which makes my job as the father of three young children even easier, because I don't have to explain to them the difference between me and them, I just have to turn on the news.

Both sides are tools of the elite, how does that make you feel?

It makes me feel nothing, because I am not a Tea Party member... because I agree with you. I do however share some of the same viewpoints as the TP, but for the most part I am FAR more radical. The reason I have attended a few TP rallies is because of a few of the speakers at them. Any mainstream movement such as the TP and OWS are always tools of the elite.

reply to post by L00kingGlass

Both sides are tools of the elite, how does that make you feel?

It makes me feel that you are mistaken. I am in full control of my own destiny. I can even admit that I haven't maximized my wealth due to my own poor choices rather than through oppression of others.

Oh, I am also pretty happy in life since most things really do go according to plan and to my satisfaction.

Perhaps you just need to review your own choices.

I'd have more respect for the protesting if it wasn't hiding behind it's "right to protest". What have the protesters really risked here in the states? Not anything. To say they are showing their courage would imply they are actually at risk The current protesting is like hive mind ADD. Random flailing's at whatever cause someone with perceived intelligence and/or charisma has convinced them to "occupy". Going out to protest just to say you went and protested is a waste of energy. Too many on this forum are too self-congratulatory about being part of this mess. It shouldn't be about the protesters ego but what they are actually protesting about. A fact that seems lost these days.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second. Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in? Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Keep in mind, I kindly asked to keep the partisan bickering out of this thread, there are countless threads for you to post in, this not one of them. If you intend to post in this thread, make your post about how you feel about these people uniting to fight for what they perceive as being right.

Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

the tide is turning.

the image of the young child holding up a sign that says "Can I have my future back" really hit me in the gut.

edit on 8-11-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)

They are getting nothing done. Fail all around while smelling up the park. No change has come and they have accomplished NOTHING. Pretty successful. Spending time when they should have been in work (cmon some of them have to have jobs??) out on the streets demanding.... ummm I am not sure, I don't think anybody really knows what the hell they want. Good job, accomplish nothing, get whooped by they cops, smell up the public parks, and then pretend like you are doing the country a favor.

It's so funny I can't stop laughing. Even more funny is these people spend their days chanting with paper signs while the rest of us work. I don't see one face in that crowd that looks like he is a hard worker in any capacity. Maybe stop being so lazy and begging for handouts and you might get a job you bums. Typical lazy people who act like they are entitled. for 90% get a damn job ... jesus christ.

So you say you stand behind those who "fight" for what they believe in no matter what the belief is, then with that logic, why are gangsters and gangbangers not treated with the same respect and admiration? They are groups of people who are willing to die for what they believe in, whether you agree with their motives or not. So even though I agreed with much of the OP, I still see the glaring hypocrisy in your statements... Happy Flame Throwing!

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


You said it perfectly! It's like asking a jury that already knows a ton of information about a case from being bombarded by the media to remain objective or put aside all their preconceived thoughts, beliefs, etc. regarding the matter.

This is a very touchy subject and it has been debuted so many times over the years.
The Tide is Turning..
Yes, but in which direction?

I agree it takes true passion to go and fight for your rights and a better future, not just talk about how disgruntled you are. If you shout and no one seems to hear, if you can't sit in the big boy's class and if there's no one to speak for your clan where do you go? Take to the streets. Don't run for the hills. This is ours.

reply to post by KryptKeeper


Oh wow well that's the spirit. You must really like how many hard working peopke were made poor by a recession that was caused by pure greed, dishonesty,exploitation all of which still goes on and won't change unless SOMEONE stands up and says "hey what about us ordinary folk? We dont think our governments values are in the right place. We want equality" . The point is they are people and they are making a point but you probably can't hear them all the way up there looking down. Oh and you have a job? Cooool.

reply to post by Nokrank


I went through the same recession as everybody else. I am not outside the effects. I am sitting with a mediocre college degree and have managed to stay employed since I graduated in 2008. Sorry but if you haven't managed to do the same you have nobody to blame but yourself. No sympathy from me. Go ahead break me down and try to make me out to be the bad guy here. Why is it that every person I meet or know that doesn't have a job also happens to be the laziest most unmotivated people I could imagine??? Is that coincidence? Every person I know who has any kind of drive is working and doing well. They talk about this "economy" being so terrible but my life has not changed because of it. Am I just lucky or what? Maybe I just have the drive to work hard and not blame everybody else for my problems. Maybe I am wrong but the protests wont prove me wrong that's for sure, this inane stuff is not going to get them working. Maybe I overlooked some specific cases here and there but in general I am right about this.

I believe the recession weeded out the people leeching off the system. Screw worrying about the "1%" they didn't do this on their own. Them backing down will not help their cause.

Originally posted by Nokrank
reply to post by KryptKeeper

 

Oh wow well that's the spirit. You must really like how many hard working peopke were made poor by a recession that was caused by pure greed, dishonesty,exploitation all of which still goes on and won't change unless SOMEONE stands up and says "hey what about us ordinary folk? We dont think our governments values are in the right place. We want equality" . The point is they are people and they are making a point but you probably can't hear them all the way up there looking down. Oh and you have a job? Cooool.

edit on 8/11/2011 by Nokrank because: No reason

Yes I do have a job. It's very cool. Sounds kinda like you don't. I know mcdonalds is hiring throw an app their way!

Go and buy a sign with some stupid anti establishment slogan buy a tent and get out there!!!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I was going to post a detailed reply but you honestly put it much better than I could have. I have to agree with you 100%.