The Tide is Turning

Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second. Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in? Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Keep in mind, I kindly asked to keep the partisan bickering out of this thread, there are countless threads for you to post in, this not one of them. If you intend to post in this thread, make your post about how you feel about these people uniting to fight for what they perceive as being right.

Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

the tide is turning.




the image of the young child holding up a sign that says "Can I have my future back" really hit me in the gut.

I agree. Its about time that we started to talk about the issues being raised by the people at these protests and not what side of the political spectrum they come from.

I share the concern of most of those that sympathise with OWS that the current financial system is crooked and that things can't continue this way.

Unless I can be persuaded that the current system is good I will continue lending my support to OWS. Maybe that is another starting point that those who oppose OWS could deal with - why should the current system of laws / regulations covering the financial system (including the Fed) be kept?

Every major change has to start with a spark. The OWS movement has flaws, IMO, but the idea of people fighting to change things for the better of the country? That's an idea I can definitely get behind. That's what America and patriotism is all about.

In the 60s, there was violence and hatred and people were hurt and even killed during the uprising of the citizens, but the movement brought about much-needed change. It's time again, for the people to take control of their country. It will take time and people will interfere and try desperately to stop them, but I cannot find fault with the overall idea and I support any change from the status quo, because I believe it will eventually bring change that we need.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Thank you for the ridicule free zone. I have grown weary of the nit picking.

I am so happy to see so much solidarity around the world. Watching the videos, and the local turn out in Texas, warmed my heart. I was really worried for a while that my fellow citizens had been sedated and brainwashed to the point that they would never see the high price that they were paying for their own slavery.

For a few years now I have cooperated little with the big corporations and banking entities. I keep everything local, and voice my disdain for companies like Monsanto and their hired FDA thugs.

There are many voices and many messages, and all should be heard. This criticism that the movement is leaderless and had no message bothered me. I suppose it's easier to aim the propaganda at one target rather than millions. I certainly don't need a leader to tell me where things have gone wrong.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

I do respect them and have considered joining them, but there is too much to lose for me personally (salary/family security). It's a simple cost benefit analysis done from the personal perspective.

I suspect that is what this is about. When there is nothing left to lose, you might as well fight. It is no coincidence that these types of collective actions are more likely during an economic downturn. Not to take away from the protesters bravery and courage, but instead to recognize that each person must do a cost benefit analysis to determine their own behavior.

reply to post by GalacticJoe

I do respect them and have considered joining them, but there is too much to lose for me personally (salary/family security).

Yup, this is why I can only lend support in my off time. I indeed have bills to pay and a family to support, so camping out in front of my local legislature is out of the option, but I can and do stand with them and anything I can do to help is being done without putting myself at risk.

Failing to pay my bills, including various student loans, only plays INTO the banking cartels hands.

Anyways, for those older than I that like to complain about this generation and their lack of ambition, take note, you have been completely wrong in your judgement. Even if nothing comes from this, at least these people tried something.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Roger Waters in 1979: “Mother Should I Trust The Government?”

Roger Waters in 2011: “The government needs to do EVERYTHING for us”

reply to post by SirMike


Anything tangible to add or are you just going to whine about the guy who happened to let them use his song for that video? there are plenty of threads open for your character assassination and guilt by association attempts, kindly relegate yourself to posting in them not here.

guess I should be pleased the thread stayed on the front page this long before people started this crap.

Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

What exactly does Roger Waters have to do with that?

Still waiting for mods to remove that off topic post........

Changes are INEVITABLE.

It is inborn in the human spirit.

We are race of flawed beings, prone to errors, but fully capable of correcting them once one or many others realized such errors, so that progress and evolution may happen. History is replete of these happenings, either peacefully, or by blood.

In our apathetic world, OWS was an amazing discovery, that courageous people in an apathetic democracy would still stand up and protest. The Arab Spring no doubt were of equal bravery, but their pain was immense where blood of innocents were spilt by rulers, and then only more rose up, and today, they stand tall, ready to forge a new better path for progress and evolultion.

But OWS made a peaceful stand, captured the imagination of a nation as well as a world uncomfortable with the blatant errors they are seeing daily in religio-socio-political and economic circumstances, despite paid media's whitewash, and many took a stand as well.

It even attracted MAJOR non-governmental organisations of different doctrines, environment and different religious organisations , bodies which had no link to OWS but bonded by the pillars of common ground that ALL humans share - equality, justice, peace, shared prosperity, progress, freedom, despite and inspite of any conceivable differences created by man.

Thus their stance with OWS, the very same pillars that OWS is standing up for, despite the cold, the agression by rulers and discomforts.

And it will be such common grounds that more will take to the streets in the face of feigned ignorance by unwise political and economic leaders whom will not correct their errors, peacefully, when given that chance. The other choice will be painful to contemplate, as the leaders of nations found out when Arab Spring occured .

Some of my favorite quotes on revolution are by JFK and Thomas Jefferson.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK

“Every generation needs a new revolution.” - Thomas Jefferson.

It's not just that the system is built "against" us, but it evolved that way. Times change, people change, beliefs change...and government needs to respect those changes and change with them! People need to fight for what they believe in, no matter what that belief is.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second.

Assumptive, Front loaded thread right off the bat.
Continue....

Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

I view the headlines and what people both [Pro and Con] have to say here at ATS and elsewhere.
Continue....

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in?

Yes, and I have.
Continue...

Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?

No, Not Rubber Bullets.
Lead ones.

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

A true movement by "Some" of the people who don't speak for the majority. Let's face it and setting "Politics" aside. Not everybody believes in the manner in which they are protesting nor location. I've said numerous times that I support the general premise of the movement. However, When anybody takes an objective look at it and their various activities and asks hard hitting question they're oftentimes ridiculed and are thrown names at like Sheeple, mindless drones, Shills, Neocons etc etc etc... ad infinitum.

So I agree let's discuss the issues, Provide solutions and stop with the rhetoric from all sides.

The problem I see is the erroneous belief by some OWS supporters that there is some gigantic mythical polarization between those who support OWS and those who look at it objectively.

The Tide is Turning..
Yes, but in which direction?

I am not "pro occupy" or against it by no means. To me it's just not organized enough to represent me and my convictions. although I share some of the points of the movement, others are just down right way too lefty for me.

Although I believe in "free healthcare" I also believe in a two tier system where the 1% can PAY for expedited surgery and care in private hospitals. Although I believe in a higher tax bracket for the 1% I also stand for the self made entrepreneur that scarified most of it to be where he/she is at today. As a millionaire enterprise business owner he/she should pay a fair share of taxes in the salary, as the business he/she owns should be given tax brakes to encourage the business to stay in the country and hire local folks.

Banks are now multi billion corporations, no more is the private bank owner, these banks should be taxed appropriately according to gross quarterly revenues, there is just no way to justify providing tax credits to banks, none!!!

Get America running again, encourage GM, Ford, Chrysler to build a better product, simple as that, offer tax credits for vehicles that are green and let's stop this "marketing" of hybrid cars and electric cars that can only run 200 miles on a charge. We have the technology to make cars that will self charge as they run, we can make these cars and we can make them better than any other country in the world, let just start now and kick every other makers butt !!! Simple as that!!!

Occupying parts of cities is a great gesture, it shows that some people are starting to get fed up with the complete injustice of corrupt capitalism. Get the lobbyists our of politics, let the governors be elected democratically ( 1 citizen = 1 vote ) let the POTUS be elected democratically in the same fashion, 1 citizen = 1 vote. Maybe if we did elect correctly the elected would be more grounded to the people and make fair divisions.
When was the last time a non millionaire or filthy rich candidate elected to President, when was one responsible for his own wallet, hi own decisions, hi own people? These days candidates run million dollar fund raisers rubbing shoulders with the pocket books of power, the more money you donate the louder the voice is in the President's ear, the Governor's ear, the judge's ear and so on and so forth.


Yes..."Occupy" has got a foot on the ground and heading is the general right direction so far and I for one would love to see it get more structured and have a louder voice and now thousands of faint ones. Let's give it time, a little helps and effort when you can and see where it brings the voice of the people!

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

But how can I reflect on what they are trying to do when they themselves do not know what they are trying to do?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right

Well firstly I think they are protesting not for what they believe is right but because of a current situation which they think is wrong.
And I agree with them, it is wrong, no argument there.

It's the right part i disagree with.
Firstly they don't know what is right, and for the few who know I completely disagree with them and to be honest I don't find them to be too bright.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Firstly who are saying two things here
You are saying that something needs to be done, sure agreed
As far as what you think is fair and right..... what do they think is fair and right?
Wanting everything free at the expense of everyone?

Or is it a philosophical protest saying capitalism would work if wallstreet were more patriotic?
A philosophical stance is fine, I love such things

But all the are doing is taking away accountability and focusing on the symptoms rather than the root of the problems and I can't stand behind that.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

I understand what you are saying here, or at least I know where you are coming from.
They are working hard some of them sure
But how can you respect people who work hard for the wrong reasons?

These protestors have spirit sure, but they lack knowledge and wisdom way too much for them to represent the 99%.
They completely don't get what the problem is but let's support them because they are commited?

The only good thing I can say is that this is a good learning process to know what NOT to do when a real protest that I support will happen.
Firstly, you NEED a goal, your movement needs a manifesto and your movement should not be so different from state to state, even perhaps county to county.
There should be tidy protests too where the protestors clean up after themselves rather than leaving a huge mess for the city to pick up later.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
the image of the young child holding up a sign that says "Can I have my future back" really hit me in the gut.

I feel you but that's part of the problem
Too much emotion and not enough thinking

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters


If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

The world does not need remaking.
The US needs to be restored back to the original design.
There is the difference between me and OWS.

reply to post by SLAYER69

So I agree let's discuss the issues, Provide solutions and stop with the rhetoric from all sides.

Yet your entire post proposes the opposite. Besides, I clearly stated that this thread is not about why they are protesting, or how some people are acting. This thread is related to the fact that some people are fed up and taking action, and how people feel about that.

There's nothing "loaded" about this thread other than people trying to load it with partisan bickering. There's enough of that.

So, if your intent was to actually stay on topic, you failed. Your post could be condensed into 1 line.

Not everybody believes in the manner in which they are protesting nor location. I've said numerous times that I support the general premise of the movement.

Again, it's not about the motives, the people, or the cause, it's about the fact that people are still willing to TRY to fight for what they believe.

Is it that hard to comment on that and that alone?

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in?

First of all, they are not “fighting” - They are protesting. There is a BIG difference. There are many of us on ATS who have actually fought (as in – had real bullets shot at us) for what we believe in. Please do not try and portray punks protesting as heroes or equate what they’re doing with the actions of people who have worn a uniform for this country.

If you intend to post in this thread, make your post about how you feel about these people uniting to fight for what they perceive as being right. Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

So we are to not pay attention to WHAT they are “fighting” for? We should simply applaud them for having the courage to protest? This is the same mentality of some parents who believe every kid who played in the game, both the winning and losing teams, should get a trophy. Why would I support people taking to the streets when I disagree with what they stand for? There is nothing honorable about causing trouble.

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Firstly who are saying two things here You are saying that something needs to be done, sure agreed As far as what you think is fair and right..... what do they think is fair and right? Wanting everything free at the expense of everyone?

See this is why I started the thread the way I did. Because I'd like to have a discussion on the social aspects of people willing to march in the streets and protest for what they believe.

I clearly said this isn't about OWS and their motives or actions, it's a reflection on the fact that, in 2011, people of all walks of life are willing to march and fight for what they think is right.

they have CLEARLY stated what they want, and taking your money isn't what they want.

This is it. close the thread mods, it's impossible to have an objective discussion about anything with people continually derailing and going off topic.

You win. I submit. I will spend the rest of my time lurking at ATS, possibly posting comments here and there, but congratulations, you've managed to push another user away from ATS.

And yes, I did alert the mods to the off topic posts. What happens? nothing. Oh, but If I go into one of the OWS hate threads and try to inject reason, I get a warning and a post removal.

It's over. ATS has failed, no objective discussion on any subject can take place.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
I clearly stated that this thread is not about why they are protesting, or how some people are acting. This thread is related to the fact that some people are fed up and taking action, and how people feel about that.

Again, it's not about the motives, the people, or the cause, it's about the fact that people are still willing to TRY to fight for what they believe.

Is it that hard to comment on that and that alone?

Of Course it is!!!!!

How can you comment on alot of passion that has no substance without talking about the lack of substance?

Also you just said, I quoted you, that this thread is about people who are fed up and taking action.
So what's wrong with talking about these "actions"?

I'm sure you didn't want a zombie thread where people talk about how they feel about the passion of protesters and not the protests themselves.

You know what is? That's called pandering to one's emotions, it's usually what dirty politicians do.
They pander to your emotions and thereby do not need to talk about real issues

reply to post by seabag

We should simply applaud them for having the courage to protest?

YES. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. I don't care what war you fought in, it means CRAP to me. So you are a government run automaton, that's great, I hope you and all of those who mean anything to you return home safely and in a timely manner. but you wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for people PROTESTING in the streets FIGHTING against the British.

I merely wanted to see how other people feel about social unrest and protest in today's environment using the OWS protests as an example but not the core. but clearly that's taboo. Nope, we have to repeat the same talking points. But I guess that's my mistake for asking people to stay on topic and expecting them to actually read the thread and address the topic at hand. It is clearly impossible here.

Well done.

Why would I support people taking to the streets when I disagree with what they stand for?

You shouldn't. You should be out there forming your own counter protests. But you won't, because you are an armchair soldier. I get it, who cares whos rights get trampled as long as they aren't yours right?

But you've come pretty close to answering the question I posted in the form of this thread. Well done, I'll just ignore the other random CRAP you posted and concentrate on the 1 line that actually has any relevance to this thread.

For anyone still confused, or for those reading the thread title then commenting, lets be clear:

THIS IS NOT ABOUT OWS, THIS IS ABOUT SOCIAL UNREST IN 2011, AND YOUR THOUGHTS ON PEOPLE MISGUIDED OR NOT, WILLING TO FIGHT FOR WHAT THEY FEEL IS RIGHT.

Plenty of you guys are willing to tell us what is right, are you willing to get off your lazyboy and actually do something about it? Of course you aren't, that's why there has been ZERO anti-ows protests.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

Yet your entire post proposes the opposite. Besides, I clearly stated that this thread is not about why they are protesting, or how some people are acting. This thread is related to the fact that some people are fed up and taking action, and how people feel about that.

There's the rub...

Opposite of what?
YOUR views?

You ask people to set politics aside. I have. Yet, because you disagree with what I've contributed YOU ASSUME it's in opposition to the Cause....

There's nothing "loaded" about this thread other than people trying to load it with partisan bickering. There's enough of that.

In the world according to phishyblankwaters.
Starting to get my drift?

So, if your intent was to actually stay on topic, you failed. Your post could be condensed into 1 line.

Not everybody believes in the manner in which they are protesting nor location. I've said numerous times that I support the general premise of the movement.

SEE!
This is exactly the point.

"If you are not with us then you are against us."

KNOCK it off and look in the freaking mirror.

Again, it's not about the motives, the people, or the cause, it's about the fact that people are still willing to TRY to fight for what they believe.

I have no issues with that. Their collective actions does raise eyerows though. How am I suppose to support a group when they ignore the outcome of some of their actions that routinely get overlooked and passed off as the actions of a few bad apples who do not represent the whole?

If I raise a question them I'm immediately accused of politics.

Is it that hard to comment on that and that alone?

If I were you I'd ask that of myself.
Fair enough?